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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! 09:57 - Dec 10 with 2957 viewsusm

Where are they all? Burnley ???

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:40 - Dec 10 with 684 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:22 - Dec 10 by footers

Some pretty depressing responses to this. It's no wonder the Tories can keep getting away with it if this is what people reckon to *children* living in relative poverty.


Yeah, I'm pretty miserable reading this. People making jokes, people saying it's okay because it's not *real* poverty. Never mind the explosion in foodbank and their use, the number of children without a home of their own, etc. Let's quibble over a definition and make jokes about smartphones. No wonder this country is broken.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 with 673 viewsLord_Lucan

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:40 - Dec 10 by Herbivore

Yeah, I'm pretty miserable reading this. People making jokes, people saying it's okay because it's not *real* poverty. Never mind the explosion in foodbank and their use, the number of children without a home of their own, etc. Let's quibble over a definition and make jokes about smartphones. No wonder this country is broken.



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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 with 673 viewsusm

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:33 - Dec 10 by Swansea_Blue

It doesn't undermine anything if you know how the term is defined. It is what it is, by definition. It's a marker that can be used to help assess trends over time.

There are other metrics to define the worse situations, e.g. 'persistent poverty' where people have been below the 'poverty' line for at least 2 of the previous 3 years, or 'deep poverty' where people have less that half the money defined by the poverty line. 'Extreme poverty' is used to describe the poorest in the word (less that $1 something to live on per day.

What undermines any sensible discussion and understanding is terse responses about TVs or smartphones or smoking. It just shows up people's ignorance. At the poverty line, even though people won't be living in caves eating rats, there's a significant impact on things like children's fatigue and attention at school. Why wouldn't anyone be concerned by that. Why would anyone be happy to see kids turn up to school hungry or so tired/stressed they can't learn properly?
[Post edited 10 Dec 2019 10:36]


There'll always be a line though wont there? If we increase the money to people below the line, inevitably that line will go up, but there'll still be the same proportion of people below it.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:47 - Dec 10 with 664 viewsSwansea_Blue

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 by usm

There'll always be a line though wont there? If we increase the money to people below the line, inevitably that line will go up, but there'll still be the same proportion of people below it.


For relative poverty, yes. That's the point - it shows how many are lagging behind as the country as a whole gets richer. Absolute poverty, that line will be fixed on a value at a point in time.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:48 - Dec 10 with 665 viewsClareBlue

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:14 - Dec 10 by Guthrum

The standard measure of relative poverty is a household income below 60% of the national median.

In 2018-19, that median was £29,400, so a household would qualify as being in relative poverty with a total income of less than £17,640.

Reasonably comfortable for a single person, not so good for a family.
[Post edited 10 Dec 2019 10:15]


It is adjusted for family size - your figure is for all households.

Single parent 2 kids it is 195 punds a week
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:49 - Dec 10 with 664 viewsjeera

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:17 - Dec 10 by Pinewoodblue

When the parent cannot afford the latest smartphone.


I'd have thought that comment was beneath you actually.

There's kids in real families that are in trouble.

Some of the comments on this thread seem more interested in taking the piss than considering solutions.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:49 - Dec 10 with 659 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 by usm

There'll always be a line though wont there? If we increase the money to people below the line, inevitably that line will go up, but there'll still be the same proportion of people below it.


It's the median income, so a midpoint. That means that if the people at the very top earnt less and the people at the very bottom earnt more the median income would stay the same but the percentage of people living below the relative poverty line would decrease.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:49 - Dec 10 with 661 viewsLord_Lucan

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 by usm

There'll always be a line though wont there? If we increase the money to people below the line, inevitably that line will go up, but there'll still be the same proportion of people below it.


People feel good about putting the country down, for example people continually say that the UK is a racist country where actually it is one of the least racist countries in the world.

I can't decide whether people are stupid, blind or just have never travelled.

I'd also like to know at what time in history since the stone age foodbanks wouldn't have been choc a bloc had they existed.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:50 - Dec 10 with 653 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:45 - Dec 10 by Lord_Lucan



I'm not finding much humour in kids being in poverty, Lucan.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:51 - Dec 10 with 652 viewsLord_Lucan

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:50 - Dec 10 by Herbivore

I'm not finding much humour in kids being in poverty, Lucan.


Have a day off Herbivore

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:52 - Dec 10 with 640 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:51 - Dec 10 by Lord_Lucan

Have a day off Herbivore


Nah, I'm good.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:54 - Dec 10 with 640 viewsGuthrum

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:48 - Dec 10 by ClareBlue

It is adjusted for family size - your figure is for all households.

Single parent 2 kids it is 195 punds a week


Thanks. Another aspect to this is the (fast rising) basic cost of living. It might sound like a reasonable amount of money, but when you take out rent and bills, there's precious little left for food and other stuff.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:59 - Dec 10 with 625 viewsjeera

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:49 - Dec 10 by Lord_Lucan

People feel good about putting the country down, for example people continually say that the UK is a racist country where actually it is one of the least racist countries in the world.

I can't decide whether people are stupid, blind or just have never travelled.

I'd also like to know at what time in history since the stone age foodbanks wouldn't have been choc a bloc had they existed.


Can't you just be grateful you're not in that position though mate?

I don't use them and don't need to, but I don't doubt the integrity of all those who do.

In Bury there are flats with blankets up at the windows acting as curtains because the people who live there have so little income. There is a family with a newborn baby there too. The flats are full of damp and need pulling down. *

*I hope they have been moved by now as this was actually a couple of years ago and new ones have been recently built close by.

But this is supposedly affluent BSE for goodness' sake.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:02 - Dec 10 with 615 viewsLord_Lucan

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:59 - Dec 10 by jeera

Can't you just be grateful you're not in that position though mate?

I don't use them and don't need to, but I don't doubt the integrity of all those who do.

In Bury there are flats with blankets up at the windows acting as curtains because the people who live there have so little income. There is a family with a newborn baby there too. The flats are full of damp and need pulling down. *

*I hope they have been moved by now as this was actually a couple of years ago and new ones have been recently built close by.

But this is supposedly affluent BSE for goodness' sake.


Of course, there for the grace of God go I.

But that is exactly what I was originally referring to on the first page as that is what I would call poverty - but the term is being undermined. Can you not appreciate this?

Some people being labelled as living in poverty are what used to be more accurately called "Hard up"
[Post edited 10 Dec 2019 11:05]

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:05 - Dec 10 with 597 viewsGaryCooper

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:40 - Dec 10 by Herbivore

Yeah, I'm pretty miserable reading this. People making jokes, people saying it's okay because it's not *real* poverty. Never mind the explosion in foodbank and their use, the number of children without a home of their own, etc. Let's quibble over a definition and make jokes about smartphones. No wonder this country is broken.


'No wonder this country is broken'

It is broken due to the political parties thriving on division, all of them.
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:22 - Dec 10 with 575 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:05 - Dec 10 by GaryCooper

'No wonder this country is broken'

It is broken due to the political parties thriving on division, all of them.


I'd say people not caring about child poverty is a fairly big issue, personally.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:35 - Dec 10 with 558 viewsClareBlue

The main things I always noticed when dealing with the wrost of the worst housing and the unfortunate families who were living there was:

a) The massive mental pressure worrying about money and paying for things like schoold trips or new runners had on people. This was continual day in and day out. It is no wonder some fall into to escapism through addiction. This pressure causes stress that cause family conflict and mental health issues.
b) The real stress of dealing with Government Agencies - be it benefits, social services, schools etc when you might find reading difficult, might find forms incomprehensible or you might not have enough cash to get to meetings or credit on your phone to make the prolonged calls to the said department. (BTW - you absolutley can not function in our society without a smart phone so no more - 'they all have smartphones so where are their priorities' crap - try making a claim for benefit without a phone sometime and you will see what I mean)
c) The real inequalities in everyday functioning - want a loan to take the kids away for three days, it will cost you 300% interest - want to shop at Aldi for fresh food to cook (if your cooker is working) - you will have to get a taxi home with the shopping, want a warm room for the kids to do home work - use a pre set electric meter for an electric heater and battle against the damp and ill fitting window letting in a gale,
d) need to get the kids to the hospital - three buses and all day taken up or an expensive taxi,
e) False economy of buying cheap clothes that fall apart but that is all you can afford and the bombardment of adverts selling certain lifestyles that are unachievable.
f) All cramed into one or two rooms that can be kept warm creating conflict and stress.
g) lack of any parenting role models - easy for us to say cook fresh, read to the children etc but if you can not read, have never seen your parents cook anything or don't have a working cooker then it's not that easy.
h) The acceptance of very young children that this is their lot in life and no expectation that it will be any better for them. What we used to call the poverty of ambition. When you see this in an 8 year old it is a very sad reflection on our society. Unfortunately, most will be proved right.

The list goes on and on and on, so it is not just your low income but the disadvantages that a low income has. The physological pressure of being in poverty is unbeliveable and the grinding down of any hope children have when they live in poverty is one of the saddest things you can see. Some get out through shear willpower or education, some turn to crime and are quite good at it, so not so good, but most end up in a cycle of poverty that spans generations.

Take this as a thought:

An English exam question was 'describe a trip to the countryside and what you did' An English teacher in a school with a catchment area of high child poverty said this was a difficult question for his students. Most had never been to the countyside and one even asked him what the countryside was.

As a child you are being excluded but not because of any ability or dedication you might have. This is everyday life for these children.
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:40 - Dec 10 with 546 viewschicoazul

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:35 - Dec 10 by ClareBlue

The main things I always noticed when dealing with the wrost of the worst housing and the unfortunate families who were living there was:

a) The massive mental pressure worrying about money and paying for things like schoold trips or new runners had on people. This was continual day in and day out. It is no wonder some fall into to escapism through addiction. This pressure causes stress that cause family conflict and mental health issues.
b) The real stress of dealing with Government Agencies - be it benefits, social services, schools etc when you might find reading difficult, might find forms incomprehensible or you might not have enough cash to get to meetings or credit on your phone to make the prolonged calls to the said department. (BTW - you absolutley can not function in our society without a smart phone so no more - 'they all have smartphones so where are their priorities' crap - try making a claim for benefit without a phone sometime and you will see what I mean)
c) The real inequalities in everyday functioning - want a loan to take the kids away for three days, it will cost you 300% interest - want to shop at Aldi for fresh food to cook (if your cooker is working) - you will have to get a taxi home with the shopping, want a warm room for the kids to do home work - use a pre set electric meter for an electric heater and battle against the damp and ill fitting window letting in a gale,
d) need to get the kids to the hospital - three buses and all day taken up or an expensive taxi,
e) False economy of buying cheap clothes that fall apart but that is all you can afford and the bombardment of adverts selling certain lifestyles that are unachievable.
f) All cramed into one or two rooms that can be kept warm creating conflict and stress.
g) lack of any parenting role models - easy for us to say cook fresh, read to the children etc but if you can not read, have never seen your parents cook anything or don't have a working cooker then it's not that easy.
h) The acceptance of very young children that this is their lot in life and no expectation that it will be any better for them. What we used to call the poverty of ambition. When you see this in an 8 year old it is a very sad reflection on our society. Unfortunately, most will be proved right.

The list goes on and on and on, so it is not just your low income but the disadvantages that a low income has. The physological pressure of being in poverty is unbeliveable and the grinding down of any hope children have when they live in poverty is one of the saddest things you can see. Some get out through shear willpower or education, some turn to crime and are quite good at it, so not so good, but most end up in a cycle of poverty that spans generations.

Take this as a thought:

An English exam question was 'describe a trip to the countryside and what you did' An English teacher in a school with a catchment area of high child poverty said this was a difficult question for his students. Most had never been to the countyside and one even asked him what the countryside was.

As a child you are being excluded but not because of any ability or dedication you might have. This is everyday life for these children.


Thank you for your interesting & informative posts on this topic. The break-down of the post war consensus and the consequences of both mad Thatcherite & quasi Marxist policies from both parties are now there for all to see.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:47 - Dec 10 with 539 viewsusm

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:35 - Dec 10 by ClareBlue

The main things I always noticed when dealing with the wrost of the worst housing and the unfortunate families who were living there was:

a) The massive mental pressure worrying about money and paying for things like schoold trips or new runners had on people. This was continual day in and day out. It is no wonder some fall into to escapism through addiction. This pressure causes stress that cause family conflict and mental health issues.
b) The real stress of dealing with Government Agencies - be it benefits, social services, schools etc when you might find reading difficult, might find forms incomprehensible or you might not have enough cash to get to meetings or credit on your phone to make the prolonged calls to the said department. (BTW - you absolutley can not function in our society without a smart phone so no more - 'they all have smartphones so where are their priorities' crap - try making a claim for benefit without a phone sometime and you will see what I mean)
c) The real inequalities in everyday functioning - want a loan to take the kids away for three days, it will cost you 300% interest - want to shop at Aldi for fresh food to cook (if your cooker is working) - you will have to get a taxi home with the shopping, want a warm room for the kids to do home work - use a pre set electric meter for an electric heater and battle against the damp and ill fitting window letting in a gale,
d) need to get the kids to the hospital - three buses and all day taken up or an expensive taxi,
e) False economy of buying cheap clothes that fall apart but that is all you can afford and the bombardment of adverts selling certain lifestyles that are unachievable.
f) All cramed into one or two rooms that can be kept warm creating conflict and stress.
g) lack of any parenting role models - easy for us to say cook fresh, read to the children etc but if you can not read, have never seen your parents cook anything or don't have a working cooker then it's not that easy.
h) The acceptance of very young children that this is their lot in life and no expectation that it will be any better for them. What we used to call the poverty of ambition. When you see this in an 8 year old it is a very sad reflection on our society. Unfortunately, most will be proved right.

The list goes on and on and on, so it is not just your low income but the disadvantages that a low income has. The physological pressure of being in poverty is unbeliveable and the grinding down of any hope children have when they live in poverty is one of the saddest things you can see. Some get out through shear willpower or education, some turn to crime and are quite good at it, so not so good, but most end up in a cycle of poverty that spans generations.

Take this as a thought:

An English exam question was 'describe a trip to the countryside and what you did' An English teacher in a school with a catchment area of high child poverty said this was a difficult question for his students. Most had never been to the countyside and one even asked him what the countryside was.

As a child you are being excluded but not because of any ability or dedication you might have. This is everyday life for these children.


I agree with all that Clare, but if 1/3rd of all children are living below the poverty line, there is no way that can be financially sorted out, the cost would be huge.
As Lucan said I suspect a lot of them are "hard up" and/or "struggling", as we did as kids, but not living in poverty.
If we concentrated on "real" need we would be able to support those who truly "need" it, but 4 Million is just unsustainable.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:48 - Dec 10 with 535 viewseireblue

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:35 - Dec 10 by hampstead_blue

Is the answer giving people more money or educating families.

It's so much cheaper to cook from fresh. Bigger portions and much more healthy.
This is controversial but education on spending your income on the essentials first. Smart phones, tv subscription, play stations and things deemed as luxuries should come last.

My fear is if you give people more money they could well just buy more stuff. Now that is controversial but it is a big worry.

If there were a way to increase people's standard of living which wouldn't just encourage ill affordable consumerism than I'd love to see it.
I feel so sad for children who go to school without proper food or clothes. Breaks my heart.


Excellent idea.

Come up with a couple of proposals.

See how many would be described as socialist by people that think in soundbites.
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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:54 - Dec 10 with 519 viewsDarth_Koont

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:35 - Dec 10 by ClareBlue

The main things I always noticed when dealing with the wrost of the worst housing and the unfortunate families who were living there was:

a) The massive mental pressure worrying about money and paying for things like schoold trips or new runners had on people. This was continual day in and day out. It is no wonder some fall into to escapism through addiction. This pressure causes stress that cause family conflict and mental health issues.
b) The real stress of dealing with Government Agencies - be it benefits, social services, schools etc when you might find reading difficult, might find forms incomprehensible or you might not have enough cash to get to meetings or credit on your phone to make the prolonged calls to the said department. (BTW - you absolutley can not function in our society without a smart phone so no more - 'they all have smartphones so where are their priorities' crap - try making a claim for benefit without a phone sometime and you will see what I mean)
c) The real inequalities in everyday functioning - want a loan to take the kids away for three days, it will cost you 300% interest - want to shop at Aldi for fresh food to cook (if your cooker is working) - you will have to get a taxi home with the shopping, want a warm room for the kids to do home work - use a pre set electric meter for an electric heater and battle against the damp and ill fitting window letting in a gale,
d) need to get the kids to the hospital - three buses and all day taken up or an expensive taxi,
e) False economy of buying cheap clothes that fall apart but that is all you can afford and the bombardment of adverts selling certain lifestyles that are unachievable.
f) All cramed into one or two rooms that can be kept warm creating conflict and stress.
g) lack of any parenting role models - easy for us to say cook fresh, read to the children etc but if you can not read, have never seen your parents cook anything or don't have a working cooker then it's not that easy.
h) The acceptance of very young children that this is their lot in life and no expectation that it will be any better for them. What we used to call the poverty of ambition. When you see this in an 8 year old it is a very sad reflection on our society. Unfortunately, most will be proved right.

The list goes on and on and on, so it is not just your low income but the disadvantages that a low income has. The physological pressure of being in poverty is unbeliveable and the grinding down of any hope children have when they live in poverty is one of the saddest things you can see. Some get out through shear willpower or education, some turn to crime and are quite good at it, so not so good, but most end up in a cycle of poverty that spans generations.

Take this as a thought:

An English exam question was 'describe a trip to the countryside and what you did' An English teacher in a school with a catchment area of high child poverty said this was a difficult question for his students. Most had never been to the countyside and one even asked him what the countryside was.

As a child you are being excluded but not because of any ability or dedication you might have. This is everyday life for these children.


Good post.

You touched on it towards the end re: their "lot in life" but it's also a sub-standard level of investment in a generation that will then have its own issues further down the line. Putting aside the moral idea that a government is actually there to take care of society and help the most needy, there is every sign that kids growing up in poverty suffer the health, education, economic and social consequences that mean statistically of course that they will end up not contributing as much to the economy and actually being a significant cost instead.

So it's callous AND short-sighted.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:54 - Dec 10 with 515 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:40 - Dec 10 by chicoazul

Thank you for your interesting & informative posts on this topic. The break-down of the post war consensus and the consequences of both mad Thatcherite & quasi Marxist policies from both parties are now there for all to see.


I see you still don't understand Marxism.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:56 - Dec 10 with 509 viewsHerbivore

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:47 - Dec 10 by usm

I agree with all that Clare, but if 1/3rd of all children are living below the poverty line, there is no way that can be financially sorted out, the cost would be huge.
As Lucan said I suspect a lot of them are "hard up" and/or "struggling", as we did as kids, but not living in poverty.
If we concentrated on "real" need we would be able to support those who truly "need" it, but 4 Million is just unsustainable.


The problem looks too big so we should just give up? That's a terrible attitude.

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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:56 - Dec 10 with 507 viewsfooters

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 11:54 - Dec 10 by Herbivore

I see you still don't understand Marxism.



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4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 12:02 - Dec 10 with 492 viewsClapham_Junction

4 Million children living in poverty in the UK!!! on 10:03 - Dec 10 by usm

How many children are there living in the UK? 20 Million?
Which means 1 in 5 lives in poverty.
Shocking stat, but again where are they?
My daughter works in a primary school in Wandsworth, in a fairly deprived area. Sure there are kids who come from families that struggle financially, but hardly any - if any at all - that could be described as living in poverty.
I just dont know where these figures come from.


A relative of mine is a primary school teacher in Bury St Edmunds, hardly the most deprived part of the world. There are kids in their class that come in hungry and in unwashed clothes.
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