| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative 17:00 - Dec 11 with 2741 views | tractordownsouth |
Got bored on the train today so wrote this. Please vote tactically tomorrow!
“ THEY’RE GOING TO GET BREXIT DONE” - this is a misleading statement. The EU’s chief negotiator today has stated that it will be unlikely to get a deal done by 2021. And even when a deal is done, it will take roughly 10 years to negotiate future agreements with other nations, and having left the world’s largest trading bloc, we won’t be doing it from a position of strength. Crucially, almost all economic analysis has shown that GDP will be roughly 5% lower if his deal is implemented.
“ THEY’RE THE ONLY PARTY RESPECTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE” - also not true., A vote on the terms of the Brexit deal which Labour support is a democratic choice. It gives specifics rather than a vague ‘ Leave and Remain’ choice, which has been the cause of the delay, and holds Brexiteers to account for the promises they made. What Boris Johnson sold the Leave voters isn’t remotely similar to what he is now offering
For example, we aren’t receiving £350m a week and didn’t negotiate a new deal before triggering Article 50, both of which were big Vote Leave promises. A referendum on the Brexit deal wouldn’t be about overruling the last one, it’d be a different question about specifics and accountability
“THE LAST LABOUR GOVERNMENT CRASHED THE ECONOMY AND WILL DO IT AGAIN!”
The 2008 Global Financial Crash was caused by deregulation of the banks - deregulation being part of Tory ideology. Tory Chancellor Sajid Javid was on the board at Deutsche Bank from 2007-09, one of the main banks that caused the crash. Do we want him to be running the country’s finances?
I’m not fully on board with all of Mr Corbyn’s spending plans but Tory underspending is even more reckless than economic investment that Labour are proposing. Hundreds of economists have backed Labour this time, even the Financial Times, which generally favours the Tories.
Also, notice how the Tories don’t want to talk about economic achievements? It’s because there aren’t any after 9 years.
“ MY TAX WILL GO UP”
In short, no it won’t, unless you’re lucky enough to earn 80k. And it’s not about punishing those people, it’s about recognising that people who don’t earn that much still work hard, just don’t get a fair slice of the pie. I work as a support worker for the disabled and get paid £9 an hour, and was regularly working 40 hour weeks. If I had a family to support that wouldn’t be enough, yet Tory ideology would suggest that I wasn’t working hard enough. Pay and social importance don’t correlate - do you think that social care workers using food banks is right when bankers in Canary Wharf earn millions? Which job is more important? Tax revenue has to come from somewhere so it’s only logical to come from the top end and not those at the bottom. Labour’s corporation tax proposals aren’t radical, they’re lower than 10 years ago and lower than the USA Belgium and Germany among many more. The Tabloid newspapers are so petrified of having to pay more tax that they’re telling you to vote against your own interests, especially the Daily Mail, that are so patriotic that the owners' family pays tax in Jersey instead of the UK
“ JEREMY CORBYN IS AN ANTI- SEMITE”
Voting Tory is not the way to prevent a racist becoming PM. Mr Johnson has referred to black people as ‘Picanninies’, Muslim women as ‘ Bank robbers’. He also has complete disdain for the working classes, whom he has described as ‘ lazy’ and ‘ drunk’. This is added to Jacob Rees- Mogg referring to state- educated people as ‘ potted plants’ and implying that Grenfell residents wouldn’t have died had they been less stupid. The Tory leadership treats anyone who isn’t rich and white with contempt.
Is this really the country we want to live in? [Post edited 16 May 2020 7:26]
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:04 - Dec 11 with 1922 views | Mullet |
I don't agree entirely, but well done for actually going through things and showing your working. |  |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:16 - Dec 11 with 1879 views | Darth_Koont |
Good post.
I also think people need to think about how the Conservatives would look with a media that was half as critical towards them in government as it is to Labour in opposition. Obviously, Boris is a bumbling buffoon who doesn't manage the details so giving him and the rest of his cabinet of incompetents airtime is now enough to seem negative. But the Tories haven't really been held to account at all for the preceding 9 years.
Which is why a lot of your list probably feels difficult to comprehend for many when it should already be clear as day. |  |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:35 - Dec 11 with 1838 views | PhilTWTD |
Surely, as Town fans, we ought to vote tractically. |  | | |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:37 - Dec 11 with 1828 views | giant_stow |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:35 - Dec 11 by PhilTWTD |
Surely, as Town fans, we ought to vote tractically. |
Prepared to say who you'll vote for Phillipe? Actually probably best not to. |  |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:45 - Dec 11 with 1800 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 17:35 - Dec 11 by PhilTWTD |
Surely, as Town fans, we ought to vote tractically. |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:13 - Dec 11 with 1748 views | Coastalblue |
I get where you're coming from and it would take a gun to my head to make me vote Tory, but I have to say, it would take the same to make me vote Labour.
One of the very few enjoyable things abut this campaign has been seeing the Momentum inserted, alledgedly corrupt candidate suddenly sweating that a 28000 majority is looking tighter and tighter.
I just wish it would all go away, Brexit, Tories, Labour, the election but sadly regardless of outcome we're going to be paying for this for a generation. |  |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:15 - Dec 11 with 1740 views | tractordownsouth |
If he downvoters would like to tell me what I’ve said in that post that is factually inaccurate then i’m open to discussion. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:23 - Dec 11 with 1715 views | giant_stow |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:13 - Dec 11 by Coastalblue |
I get where you're coming from and it would take a gun to my head to make me vote Tory, but I have to say, it would take the same to make me vote Labour.
One of the very few enjoyable things abut this campaign has been seeing the Momentum inserted, alledgedly corrupt candidate suddenly sweating that a 28000 majority is looking tighter and tighter.
I just wish it would all go away, Brexit, Tories, Labour, the election but sadly regardless of outcome we're going to be paying for this for a generation. |
Which seat is that (so I know who to look out for tomorrow night)? | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:26 - Dec 11 with 1697 views | Coastalblue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:23 - Dec 11 by giant_stow |
Which seat is that (so I know who to look out for tomorrow night)? |
Limehouse and Poplar.
We've had a decent Labour MP who is retiring and had a candidate been crowbarred into place. Phil won't thank me for going into it on here but a quick Google will show you the shennanigans that have been going on.
There's actually a lot of unrest amongst the locals, but it is a huge majority and has been Labour since 1920 I think so I suspect she'll squeak home. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:32 - Dec 11 with 1677 views | giant_stow |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:26 - Dec 11 by Coastalblue |
Limehouse and Poplar.
We've had a decent Labour MP who is retiring and had a candidate been crowbarred into place. Phil won't thank me for going into it on here but a quick Google will show you the shennanigans that have been going on.
There's actually a lot of unrest amongst the locals, but it is a huge majority and has been Labour since 1920 I think so I suspect she'll squeak home. |
Thanks - will go google. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:41 - Dec 11 with 1652 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:15 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
If he downvoters would like to tell me what I’ve said in that post that is factually inaccurate then i’m open to discussion. |
Othering British Jews by saying that they have “no sense of irony” despite “having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all of their lives”.
Imagine if Johnson said that about any other minority community.
And many more examples. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/05/jeremy-corbyn-personally-accused |  |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative (n/t) on 18:48 - Dec 11 with 1616 views | tractordownsouth |
[Post edited 16 May 2020 7:26]
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:56 - Dec 11 with 1603 views | Darth_Koont |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative (n/t) on 18:48 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
[Post edited 16 May 2020 7:26]
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GB's version works better for his smeary purposes though. It was also a comment referring to some specific people in a specific situation and not just "Zionists don't get English irony".
Remember: This along with the Hobson foreword is some of their biggest evidence ... it would be laughable if it weren't so ultimately tragic. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:02 - Dec 11 with 1581 views | giant_stow |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative (n/t) on 18:48 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
[Post edited 16 May 2020 7:26]
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism
(and this from someone sympathetic to Corbyn)
Edit:
"Let’s look closely at the words used by Corbyn: these British Zionists don’t study history, and they don’t understand irony (ironic coming from one of the greatest literalists British politics has produced). In other words, they are uneducated, they have failed to integrate or assimilate, they are outsiders, they don’t belong, they need to be taught a lesson. Sorry, Jeremy, this is the language of supremacism."
What a tragic situation we're in. [Post edited 11 Dec 2019 19:03]
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:06 - Dec 11 with 1552 views | Darth_Koont |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:02 - Dec 11 by giant_stow |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism
(and this from someone sympathetic to Corbyn)
Edit:
"Let’s look closely at the words used by Corbyn: these British Zionists don’t study history, and they don’t understand irony (ironic coming from one of the greatest literalists British politics has produced). In other words, they are uneducated, they have failed to integrate or assimilate, they are outsiders, they don’t belong, they need to be taught a lesson. Sorry, Jeremy, this is the language of supremacism."
What a tragic situation we're in. [Post edited 11 Dec 2019 19:03]
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This is the problem:
"It is unclear what the irony in question is. But it is irrelevant. To generalise about any race or religion is discriminatory. And if there were ever a clear example of somebody conflating Zionist with Jews, this appears to be it. Let’s play the traditional “swap the minority” game. Instead of “Zionists” let’s make it, say, Muslims or African-Caribbeans or Asians or Irish needing lessons in history or irony. Not nice, eh?"
So in his own words he's saying he doesn't know the context. But says that's irrelevant. Then he himself conflates Zionists (not a race, not a religion) with Jews and other ethnic minorities to create his "clear example".
Is he, and are you, serious??!! | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:12 - Dec 11 with 1523 views | tractordownsouth |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:02 - Dec 11 by giant_stow |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism
(and this from someone sympathetic to Corbyn)
Edit:
"Let’s look closely at the words used by Corbyn: these British Zionists don’t study history, and they don’t understand irony (ironic coming from one of the greatest literalists British politics has produced). In other words, they are uneducated, they have failed to integrate or assimilate, they are outsiders, they don’t belong, they need to be taught a lesson. Sorry, Jeremy, this is the language of supremacism."
What a tragic situation we're in. [Post edited 11 Dec 2019 19:03]
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N/T [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 17:21]
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:15 - Dec 11 with 1514 views | giant_stow |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:12 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
N/T [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 17:21]
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I think Boris is a sh1tbag, is worse than Corbyn and I will vote Labour but that doesn't mean I approve of what Corbyn has helped turned labour into. Thanks to first past the post, there's no option where I live. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:31 - Dec 11 with 1447 views | eireblue |
Racism is not just about putting down other types of people. But also an assertion of superiority.
I think JC said something along the lines of “..English sense of irony”
I can see that as a snarky smug comment from someone asserting that they thought they had a superior intellect, based on their Englishness.
I mean, Americans, they don’t really get English irony, am I right?
If Johnson/Corbyn said it about any other community, from my POV, I would see it the same way.
Still not a nice comment, but not anti-community, but a snobbish/smug assertion of superiority independent of the community.
Anyhoo, I just thought I would share a different point of view from a non-English person.
The perspective of the people in the room is more important. |  | | |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:32 - Dec 11 with 1445 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:12 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
N/T [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 17:21]
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It’s confusing. On the one hand antisemites do interchange the term to try to appear less antisemitism (but their antisemitism followers know what it means). On the other you have to be able to genuinely criticise Israel if you feel the need as so this can be a valid defence against accusations of racism.
Does my head in, all of it. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:41 - Dec 11 with 1418 views | Darth_Koont |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:31 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
Racism is not just about putting down other types of people. But also an assertion of superiority.
I think JC said something along the lines of “..English sense of irony”
I can see that as a snarky smug comment from someone asserting that they thought they had a superior intellect, based on their Englishness.
I mean, Americans, they don’t really get English irony, am I right?
If Johnson/Corbyn said it about any other community, from my POV, I would see it the same way.
Still not a nice comment, but not anti-community, but a snobbish/smug assertion of superiority independent of the community.
Anyhoo, I just thought I would share a different point of view from a non-English person.
The perspective of the people in the room is more important. |
Important to point out Corbyn was talking about two people who are ultra-Zionists and who are politically engaged ... so hardly some blanket view of Jews who have an understandable affinity with Israel.
As always, these things are what people make them often by being willfully obtuse to read it in a particular way. Here's the rabid smearer-in-chief Stephen Pollard of the Jewish Chronicle well and truly tying himself in knots to create a smear.
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:52 - Dec 11 with 1392 views | Darth_Koont |
I think how this thread has been derailed and the points somehow dismissed by opponents is an indication of how badly we've all (democracy included) been served by these whispered "Yeah, but Corbyn's an antisemite/terrorist-lover/spy/security threat/Marxist/Britain-hater/success-envier etc. etc."
What they lack in accuracy they make up for in hyperbole. Because anything is better than the truth, which is that they just can't defend their own politics and its lamentable results. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 20:27 - Dec 11 with 1333 views | Coastalblue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 19:52 - Dec 11 by Darth_Koont |
I think how this thread has been derailed and the points somehow dismissed by opponents is an indication of how badly we've all (democracy included) been served by these whispered "Yeah, but Corbyn's an antisemite/terrorist-lover/spy/security threat/Marxist/Britain-hater/success-envier etc. etc."
What they lack in accuracy they make up for in hyperbole. Because anything is better than the truth, which is that they just can't defend their own politics and its lamentable results. |
We have an awful political landscape and are about to enter a general election which will see one of only two parties win, neither has the ability or should have the opportunity to run this country.
I truly fear for us over the next decade. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 20:31 - Dec 11 with 1328 views | Bluesquid |
Imagine if Johnson had said...
I see the Conservative Party is investigating parliamentary candidates over allegations of anti-Semitism.
One Conservative candidate 'liked' a Nazi slogan, another candidate promotes a group which peddles anti-Semitic Soros conspiracies, and a third candidate accused British Jews of being more loyal to Israel than to the UK, a classic anti-Semitic trope.
One Conservative member of parliament depicted Jews as controlling the media and being able to “fiddle” elections in a novel written in 2004.
Quiz time! Which of the above was Boris Johnson responsible for? |  | | |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 20:46 - Dec 11 with 1292 views | Darth_Koont |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 20:27 - Dec 11 by Coastalblue |
We have an awful political landscape and are about to enter a general election which will see one of only two parties win, neither has the ability or should have the opportunity to run this country.
I truly fear for us over the next decade. |
Well, one party has proven they don't have the ability but we seem hell-bent on giving them yet another opportunity.
But I agree that the political and media landscape is awful. It has been for years which is why we've ended up here. The next decade will show us if we've learnt anything or are determined to saty in the same rut. | |
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| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 20:52 - Dec 11 with 1272 views | legally_blue |
| Debunking reasons to Vote Conservative on 18:15 - Dec 11 by tractordownsouth |
If he downvoters would like to tell me what I’ve said in that post that is factually inaccurate then i’m open to discussion. |
I didn’t downvote, but point of order - your statement that “they register their taxes in the Cayman Islands” is complete nonsense. It’s impossible to be registered in the Cayman Islands for tax purposes in the way you’re suggesting. Cayman doesn’t have double tax treaties so cannot be used for profit shifting in the way you’re suggesting. If you want to do that, you actually need to use a low tax EU jurisdiction (Ireland, Luxembourg or Holland). | | | |
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