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Game on? 21:50 - Dec 11 with 8047 viewsitfcjoe


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Game on? on 11:23 - Dec 12 with 1638 viewschicoazul

Game on? on 10:18 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont

What transformative change did Blair achieve? Blair's Labour is a cut above even a Cameron-led Conservative government but I think you're getting a bit carried away.

It was a period of global economic growth with a lot of social and economic change from digitalisation and the Internet. That would have happened without him. And he put more money into public services based on the booming economy and to correct some of the underfunding that we'd seen up until then. But what did he actually change? The divisions in society were still growing, ditto the regional disenfranchisement, we didn't build enough houses, didn't do enough for the environment, the political system stayed the same he just changed how Labour played the game. And that's without even getting into how he put his stamp of approval on an already questionable neoliberalist economic outlook and Western imperialist world view.

Real transformative change means a change of direction not a rebadging exercise.


Given that most of austerity is undoing Blair and Brown's work and everyone says austerity is transformative for the worse....
Whether you believe in that change or not though, I think we are now seeing a Blair type is as good as it gets in this country for Labour. You can gnash your teeth about it all you like but it wont change that.Labour cannot win and instigate the change you want, as things stand. That is the reality.

Of course, I may be force to eat all these words tonight if the Maximum Leader cruises to a 40 seat majority.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Game on? on 11:30 - Dec 12 with 1621 viewsStokieBlue

Game on? on 11:16 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

The thing about lesser evils is that they're still evil.


The thing is that that's not a pragmatic approach. Things can be changed slowly and over time but that's not how Labour have gone about it. I fully understand that some people really want everything to change in one go but as others have pointed out, unless Labour are in power it's all just words on a long document.

A Blair-type figure might not be everything that you and others want but if such a person could make some moves towards the left it's more likely that over the longer term a more left-wing candidate wouldn't seem such a huge change.

I understand entirely that's not your view and the view of many but it is unfortunately the realism of the situation. What we will probably end up with is a pretty horrible Tory government because being a bit to the left isn't enough.

SB

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Game on? on 11:32 - Dec 12 with 1609 viewsDanTheMan

Game on? on 11:30 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue

The thing is that that's not a pragmatic approach. Things can be changed slowly and over time but that's not how Labour have gone about it. I fully understand that some people really want everything to change in one go but as others have pointed out, unless Labour are in power it's all just words on a long document.

A Blair-type figure might not be everything that you and others want but if such a person could make some moves towards the left it's more likely that over the longer term a more left-wing candidate wouldn't seem such a huge change.

I understand entirely that's not your view and the view of many but it is unfortunately the realism of the situation. What we will probably end up with is a pretty horrible Tory government because being a bit to the left isn't enough.

SB


To be fair, they did try that with "Red" Ed Milliband and he still got the same character assassination treatment.

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Game on? on 11:34 - Dec 12 with 1602 viewschicoazul

Game on? on 11:32 - Dec 12 by DanTheMan

To be fair, they did try that with "Red" Ed Milliband and he still got the same character assassination treatment.


Any Labour leader, any one at all, will get that treatment from the majority press and the Tories. Which is why Labour need a leader who can appeal despite that.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll: With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

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Game on? on 11:36 - Dec 12 with 1595 viewsStokieBlue

Game on? on 11:32 - Dec 12 by DanTheMan

To be fair, they did try that with "Red" Ed Milliband and he still got the same character assassination treatment.


That's a totally fair point.

It doesn't invalidate my point with regards to the probably realities of the situation but certainly highlights a very large problem we haven't been able to get to grip with and that has in actually gotten worse since the days of Milliband.

SB

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Game on? on 11:38 - Dec 12 with 1587 viewsBackToRussia

Game on? on 11:30 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue

The thing is that that's not a pragmatic approach. Things can be changed slowly and over time but that's not how Labour have gone about it. I fully understand that some people really want everything to change in one go but as others have pointed out, unless Labour are in power it's all just words on a long document.

A Blair-type figure might not be everything that you and others want but if such a person could make some moves towards the left it's more likely that over the longer term a more left-wing candidate wouldn't seem such a huge change.

I understand entirely that's not your view and the view of many but it is unfortunately the realism of the situation. What we will probably end up with is a pretty horrible Tory government because being a bit to the left isn't enough.

SB


After Blair we got Cameron. We got a shift to the right, he made no progress for securing a future progressive agenda, a legacy. Cameron saw Blair as a hero, but he was a small state austerity man. That shows you how hollow Blair's influence on genuine progressive politics in this country.

Is Corbyn the answer? Probably not because he has been undermined in part by a few of his own actions but in the large part because the country's media has decided he is not going to win this election. But his politics are genuinely progressive and I will continue to only vote for politicians who are. It's a false choice that you present. If others voted like me we'd have a left wing government tomorrow. Why should I be the one to compromise my values?
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:39]

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Game on? on 11:42 - Dec 12 with 1575 viewsStokieBlue

Game on? on 11:38 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

After Blair we got Cameron. We got a shift to the right, he made no progress for securing a future progressive agenda, a legacy. Cameron saw Blair as a hero, but he was a small state austerity man. That shows you how hollow Blair's influence on genuine progressive politics in this country.

Is Corbyn the answer? Probably not because he has been undermined in part by a few of his own actions but in the large part because the country's media has decided he is not going to win this election. But his politics are genuinely progressive and I will continue to only vote for politicians who are. It's a false choice that you present. If others voted like me we'd have a left wing government tomorrow. Why should I be the one to compromise my values?
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:39]


I respect your position and I didn't ask you to compromise your values and you should of course vote in the way you see fit.

"If others voted like me we'd have a left wing government tomorrow."

Of course, however as Steve said, there isn't really a majority for the type of manifesto that Labour have put out. Doing it in smaller steps rather than trying to change everything in one go might have worked though - that is the point I was attempting to make.

The all or nothing approach is highly likely to end in a Tory government and more awful decisions. That might not be the case in the future where there might be a majority to implement such sweeping changes in one swoop but we have to live in the hear and now in this regards.

SB

Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula

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Game on? on 11:47 - Dec 12 with 1562 viewsBackToRussia

Game on? on 11:42 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue

I respect your position and I didn't ask you to compromise your values and you should of course vote in the way you see fit.

"If others voted like me we'd have a left wing government tomorrow."

Of course, however as Steve said, there isn't really a majority for the type of manifesto that Labour have put out. Doing it in smaller steps rather than trying to change everything in one go might have worked though - that is the point I was attempting to make.

The all or nothing approach is highly likely to end in a Tory government and more awful decisions. That might not be the case in the future where there might be a majority to implement such sweeping changes in one swoop but we have to live in the hear and now in this regards.

SB


The thing is that we had three Labour governments, and what came afterwards was huge austerity, increased capitalisation aka privatisation occured. We left the EU, rejected a more progressive voting system. Racism increased. An MP was gunned down in the street. That undermines your argument that we should vote for a centrist and move slowly left.

People like you and Steve should think about why there isn't a majority opinion for a properly transformative manifesto. You can scoff at the idea of the power of the media but it is real. Add into that corporate interest and you have stacked odds. If you actually speak to people and don't mention the words socialism or the Labour Party, many of the ideas and policies of Corbyn et al are what many, many ordinary people want these things. They've just been convinced to vote against their own best interests, just like how republicanism is most popular in the poorest states, and with people with no health insurance.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:48]

TWTD CP. Evans Out.
Poll: Neil Young or Lynyrd Skynyrd - there is no middle ground.

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Game on? on 11:57 - Dec 12 with 1547 viewsStokieBlue

Game on? on 11:47 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

The thing is that we had three Labour governments, and what came afterwards was huge austerity, increased capitalisation aka privatisation occured. We left the EU, rejected a more progressive voting system. Racism increased. An MP was gunned down in the street. That undermines your argument that we should vote for a centrist and move slowly left.

People like you and Steve should think about why there isn't a majority opinion for a properly transformative manifesto. You can scoff at the idea of the power of the media but it is real. Add into that corporate interest and you have stacked odds. If you actually speak to people and don't mention the words socialism or the Labour Party, many of the ideas and policies of Corbyn et al are what many, many ordinary people want these things. They've just been convinced to vote against their own best interests, just like how republicanism is most popular in the poorest states, and with people with no health insurance.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:48]


Some fair points there with regards to not moving further left after having a Labour government but perhaps it would have happened if Brown had been able to win an election. Poor choices were made by Labour in that regard as he wasn't particular popular.

However I think it's a tad insulting to say that people can't make their own decisions and are essentially forced by the media to take certain views. That might be the case for some I accept but not everyone.

I like a lot of what Labour have put in their manifesto as I've said in numerous posts but a lot of it goes too far for me personally. That likely wouldn't be the case if some of it was changed.

Unless Labour win a majority today then my point still stands - it's pointless having a manifesto, no matter how brilliant, if it can never be implemented.

I disagree that a centre-left government would be as bad as the Tories. Anything further to the left is surely better?

SB
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:58]

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Game on? on 12:08 - Dec 12 with 1531 viewsDarth_Koont

Game on? on 11:47 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

The thing is that we had three Labour governments, and what came afterwards was huge austerity, increased capitalisation aka privatisation occured. We left the EU, rejected a more progressive voting system. Racism increased. An MP was gunned down in the street. That undermines your argument that we should vote for a centrist and move slowly left.

People like you and Steve should think about why there isn't a majority opinion for a properly transformative manifesto. You can scoff at the idea of the power of the media but it is real. Add into that corporate interest and you have stacked odds. If you actually speak to people and don't mention the words socialism or the Labour Party, many of the ideas and policies of Corbyn et al are what many, many ordinary people want these things. They've just been convinced to vote against their own best interests, just like how republicanism is most popular in the poorest states, and with people with no health insurance.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:48]


Well said.

Your first para is spot on. Three Labour governments that could be so easily dismissed as "more of the same". So much so that people like Farage and the disaster capitalists were seen as the ones who offer the alternative that can change things for Britain.

It's unbelievable to me that in a 21st-century, Western European country genuine social democracy has been characterised as pie-in-the-sky Marxism and somehow electorally toxic.

We need to have a word with ourselves.

Pronouns: He/Him

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Game on? on 13:05 - Dec 12 with 1488 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Game on? on 09:42 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

So Boris looks statesmanlike yeah?


He’s very unconventional clearly and plays the buffoon but still has an appearance and presence that makes large numbers of people see him as someone who leads, gets things done and that they want to listen to when he speaks

Statesmanlike was probably not the right word granted, and I should add that I’m taking ‘looks’ as covering all the non-verbal cues

I’m surprised to see the point challenged though, given how well evidenced it is that this stuff does matter

Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
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Game on? on 13:06 - Dec 12 with 1487 viewsflimflam

That should get a few more Tories out to vote who may not have bothered.

All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing.

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Game on? on 13:12 - Dec 12 with 1478 viewsHerbivore

Game on? on 13:05 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

He’s very unconventional clearly and plays the buffoon but still has an appearance and presence that makes large numbers of people see him as someone who leads, gets things done and that they want to listen to when he speaks

Statesmanlike was probably not the right word granted, and I should add that I’m taking ‘looks’ as covering all the non-verbal cues

I’m surprised to see the point challenged though, given how well evidenced it is that this stuff does matter


He looks like the love child of the Hunchback of Notre Dame and the Milkybar Kid. He's an awful public speaker. The myth that he is remotely suited to leadership comes purely through media manipulation.

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Game on? on 13:17 - Dec 12 with 1459 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Game on? on 13:12 - Dec 12 by Herbivore

He looks like the love child of the Hunchback of Notre Dame and the Milkybar Kid. He's an awful public speaker. The myth that he is remotely suited to leadership comes purely through media manipulation.


So to clarify, you really think how someone looks is completely irrelevant when it comes to public perception and ultimately winning votes?

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Game on? on 13:19 - Dec 12 with 1447 viewsgiant_stow

Game on? on 13:12 - Dec 12 by Herbivore

He looks like the love child of the Hunchback of Notre Dame and the Milkybar Kid. He's an awful public speaker. The myth that he is remotely suited to leadership comes purely through media manipulation.


Any chance of criticising Boris for his policies? My son looks like the milkybar kid cos he's got albanism and I'm starting to get a bit fcked off with this particular critique. yes Boris is ultra-blonde -s'what?!

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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Game on? on 13:22 - Dec 12 with 1425 viewslowhouseblue

Game on? on 10:28 - Dec 12 by Steve_M

Blair's greatest sin in the eyes of much of the left was winning elections wasn't it?


whereas corbyn may well turn out to be the left's greatest leader ever - never compromised on anything, never sold out a single principle, never made any difficult decisions, and as pure and unsullied as only someone who has never dirtied their hands with any power can be

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Game on? on 13:28 - Dec 12 with 1397 viewsr2d2

Game on? on 13:22 - Dec 12 by lowhouseblue

whereas corbyn may well turn out to be the left's greatest leader ever - never compromised on anything, never sold out a single principle, never made any difficult decisions, and as pure and unsullied as only someone who has never dirtied their hands with any power can be


Corbyn is a 70 year old man. There is nothing charismatic about him whatsoever. Thats the problem. He doesnt look like a leader. He looks like he is drawing his pension and living in an old peoples home.
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Game on? on 13:41 - Dec 12 with 1361 viewsBackToRussia

Game on? on 11:57 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue

Some fair points there with regards to not moving further left after having a Labour government but perhaps it would have happened if Brown had been able to win an election. Poor choices were made by Labour in that regard as he wasn't particular popular.

However I think it's a tad insulting to say that people can't make their own decisions and are essentially forced by the media to take certain views. That might be the case for some I accept but not everyone.

I like a lot of what Labour have put in their manifesto as I've said in numerous posts but a lot of it goes too far for me personally. That likely wouldn't be the case if some of it was changed.

Unless Labour win a majority today then my point still stands - it's pointless having a manifesto, no matter how brilliant, if it can never be implemented.

I disagree that a centre-left government would be as bad as the Tories. Anything further to the left is surely better?

SB
[Post edited 12 Dec 2019 11:58]


I honestly don't think people disagreeing with Labour's policies is why they may not win. This has been shown, that their policies are popular. People have a problem with Corbyn primarily. It has been done to death on here re Corbyn's treatment by the media, but I will say this one obvious thing: Corbyn has received mass media coverage, way more than any other political leader, probably even Boris or May when she was PM - the attention on him by the country's media is clear. It is clear to me that this fact has influenced people away from Labour. The fight Labour will have lost is one of PR and manipulation, and vice versa, this is the battle Boris and Cummings have won.

I'm not saying a centre left government would be as bad, but it is absolutely no guarantee of any eventual shift to the left. Blair is proof of that.

TWTD CP. Evans Out.
Poll: Neil Young or Lynyrd Skynyrd - there is no middle ground.

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Game on? on 14:10 - Dec 12 with 1332 viewsHerbivore

Game on? on 13:17 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

So to clarify, you really think how someone looks is completely irrelevant when it comes to public perception and ultimately winning votes?


I don't think it's relevant, the image the media projects is far more important than how they actually look.

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Game on? on 14:17 - Dec 12 with 1306 viewsGaryCooper

Game on? on 13:17 - Dec 12 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

So to clarify, you really think how someone looks is completely irrelevant when it comes to public perception and ultimately winning votes?


It is all super hypocrisy from the herbibore, no embarrassment is a powerful tool, it is Trumpesque.
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Game on? on 17:11 - Dec 12 with 1238 viewsGeoffSentence

Game on? on 09:25 - Dec 12 by BanksterDebtSlave

Time for a new Mrs Sentence.....!!


She came back this afternoon and confirmed her black deed, but we found a resolution


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Game on? on 22:22 - Dec 12 with 1163 viewsStokieBlue

Game on? on 13:41 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

I honestly don't think people disagreeing with Labour's policies is why they may not win. This has been shown, that their policies are popular. People have a problem with Corbyn primarily. It has been done to death on here re Corbyn's treatment by the media, but I will say this one obvious thing: Corbyn has received mass media coverage, way more than any other political leader, probably even Boris or May when she was PM - the attention on him by the country's media is clear. It is clear to me that this fact has influenced people away from Labour. The fight Labour will have lost is one of PR and manipulation, and vice versa, this is the battle Boris and Cummings have won.

I'm not saying a centre left government would be as bad, but it is absolutely no guarantee of any eventual shift to the left. Blair is proof of that.


A centre left government would have been far better than what we have now.

I think my point was spot on unfortunately :(.

SB

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Game on? on 22:24 - Dec 12 with 1153 viewsBackToRussia

Game on? on 22:22 - Dec 12 by StokieBlue

A centre left government would have been far better than what we have now.

I think my point was spot on unfortunately :(.

SB


Look, we had a choice of that in Milliband. Why did he not win? Corbyn was elected as a reaction to Milliband's centrism. We'll see who the next leader is.

TWTD CP. Evans Out.
Poll: Neil Young or Lynyrd Skynyrd - there is no middle ground.

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Game on? on 22:25 - Dec 12 with 1147 viewslowhouseblue

Game on? on 22:24 - Dec 12 by BackToRussia

Look, we had a choice of that in Milliband. Why did he not win? Corbyn was elected as a reaction to Milliband's centrism. We'll see who the next leader is.


milliband starts to look like a political genius relative to this.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Game on? on 22:26 - Dec 12 with 1145 viewsBackToRussia

Game on? on 22:25 - Dec 12 by lowhouseblue

milliband starts to look like a political genius relative to this.


And in the end got nowhere. You're all on here every day saying how popular a more centrist candidate would be but it's really not that simple, clearly.

TWTD CP. Evans Out.
Poll: Neil Young or Lynyrd Skynyrd - there is no middle ground.

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