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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong 10:50 - Dec 13 with 4865 viewstractordownsouth

I've calmed a little since last night, and whilst I'm still disappointed, I think this is a more measured assessment of the election. Think I may stay away from TWTD during the next election night.

In hindsight: where Labour went wrong.

Having campaigned for The Liberal Democrats in my home constituency in the hope of removing Mr Johnson and having a more competent and compassionate coalition government in charge, I’m hugely disappointed by the morning’s results.

Despite the overall percentages for leave and referendum parties being split 50/50, electorally, we were never going to win the argument on the EU. Our door- knocking yesterday, I spoke to many Brexit voters who were angry that we were proposing a vote on the Brexit deal. Whenever I tried to explain that the current Brexit deal bares very little resemblance to what Mr Johnson promised as head of Vote Leave, the response I got was “I don’t care, I just want it done.” Whilst I understand the frustration, I cannot personally understand why someone would continue to advocate something if their reasons for originally advocating it were removed, and it illustrates that the Tory party, like Trump and the Vote Leave campaign, have helped reduce political debate in this country to meaningless sloganeering. That said, Mr Corbyn missed endless own goals in debates to really hammer home that Brexit will not be done with the passing of the withdrawal agreement, and that democracy does not end with one vote, it’s about accountability and leadership, not dodging scrutiny and hiding in fridges.

As much as I believe him to be more competent than Mr Johnson, Mr Corbyn failed spectacularly in not coming up with a clear Brexit policy until last month — in an environment dominated by slogans, the electorate needed time to understand a more nuanced position; I do wonder that if we had adopted a left wing leave stance, it would have held water in the northern areas. We may then have been able to capitalise on the opportunity to hit the Tories on the scandalous rise in homelessness and foodbanks and show that the Tories’ spending plans are unfunded — they have proposed no tax changes. I have no doubt that Corbyn is a decent man, however by alienating competent Labour MPs in favour of the likes of Dianne Abbott and the the failure to remove Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic remarks, he lost the moral high ground from which to attack the Tories for their own incompetent cabinet members and racism issues. I also think that perhaps introducing more moderate economic changes may have helped; many of the proposals were normal for a lot of Europe, but in a historically right wing nation, this scale of change was maybe too much for some.

So, what do Labour need in the future? The view of Labour is that it's become a metropolitan elite party ( which is inaccurate, considering the fact that many people from poor backgrounds voted for a party who have decimated public services and overseen a huge rise in poverty) so I think we need a leader from outside London to get the working classes back onside and I have joined the Labour Party in order to help elect someone like Yvette Cooper or Jess Phillips. Sure, the Tory press will still go after any Labour leader but clearly, a new one is needed.

I genuinely feel for the working people who have put their trust in the Tory party as they are going to be very, very disappointed. A lot of the doorstep issues in my Cornish constituency (Cornwall being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding) concerned justified discontent about how lives were going, yet people were voting for the incumbent Tory MP and government, both of whom have achieved nothing for the area. One telling sign was that no Tory or Brexiteer was talking about economic achievments or the gains to be made from Brexit as there aren't any. We’ve been programmed into thinking Brexit is a silver bullet which will solve all the problems, despite all economic analysis suggesting that public services and the low paid will suffer the most. I think the most dangerous soundbite of the last 4 years is Michael Gove claiming that “The British People have had enough of experts”, riding roughshod over facts and insight. British politics is truly in the gutter and we need to drag it out. One way we can do this is by embracing the tactical voting, the leavers just did it and look where that got them. It’s not a compromise of your principles to vote for your second-choice candidate in order to oppose your least favourite.

Everyone who knows me knows that I am not a Tory or a Brexiteer, but I do genuinely hope that both things can help our country. However, history and economic analysis do not suggest that they will. The Tories are now responsible for many of the communities they have decimated in the last few years and I wish those people who voted for them good luck, they are really going to need it.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 10:55]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 10:54 - Dec 13 with 2487 viewsSwansea_Blue

Good post. People voting because they are bored is one of the most frustrating things about all of this. Sloganeering capitalised on that and won the day again. Say this about Boris/Cummings, they can come up with winnable false slogans.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:03 - Dec 13 with 2460 viewsitfcjoe

It was a Brexit election, and whilst I came round to Labour's position on Brexit they were between a rock and a hard place. They couldn't let the election be fought on brexit but it was.

Corbyn isn't popular with the traditional Labour voter either, I didn't think it would be as bad as this but expected a Conservative majority. But anyone who I'd consider working class who i speak to, or see on Facebook think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser - IRA especially - who is soft on defence and crime.

The sale of the victory should be the best thing that can happen in a defeat - it gives Boris a proper majority to 'Get Brexit Done' which was going to be the only outcome with a predicted Cons majority, this gives him some flexibility with it, and it also means he has to own it whatever the outcome.

It also means that the Labour party has to be overhauled, I've always been more of a Centre left person and wanted a party that would represent that, I had joined the LDs but had lost any faith in them over last 2 years. I appreciate most on the left don't want a centre left Govt, but I do.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:05 - Dec 13 with 2441 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:03 - Dec 13 by itfcjoe

It was a Brexit election, and whilst I came round to Labour's position on Brexit they were between a rock and a hard place. They couldn't let the election be fought on brexit but it was.

Corbyn isn't popular with the traditional Labour voter either, I didn't think it would be as bad as this but expected a Conservative majority. But anyone who I'd consider working class who i speak to, or see on Facebook think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser - IRA especially - who is soft on defence and crime.

The sale of the victory should be the best thing that can happen in a defeat - it gives Boris a proper majority to 'Get Brexit Done' which was going to be the only outcome with a predicted Cons majority, this gives him some flexibility with it, and it also means he has to own it whatever the outcome.

It also means that the Labour party has to be overhauled, I've always been more of a Centre left person and wanted a party that would represent that, I had joined the LDs but had lost any faith in them over last 2 years. I appreciate most on the left don't want a centre left Govt, but I do.


Brexit was a big issue, but Labour are f*cked if they kid themselves that it was only brexit that lost it for them.

Corbyn dream of 1970's labour utopia was a huge problem too.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:07 - Dec 13 with 2432 viewsBlueBadger

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:03 - Dec 13 by itfcjoe

It was a Brexit election, and whilst I came round to Labour's position on Brexit they were between a rock and a hard place. They couldn't let the election be fought on brexit but it was.

Corbyn isn't popular with the traditional Labour voter either, I didn't think it would be as bad as this but expected a Conservative majority. But anyone who I'd consider working class who i speak to, or see on Facebook think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser - IRA especially - who is soft on defence and crime.

The sale of the victory should be the best thing that can happen in a defeat - it gives Boris a proper majority to 'Get Brexit Done' which was going to be the only outcome with a predicted Cons majority, this gives him some flexibility with it, and it also means he has to own it whatever the outcome.

It also means that the Labour party has to be overhauled, I've always been more of a Centre left person and wanted a party that would represent that, I had joined the LDs but had lost any faith in them over last 2 years. I appreciate most on the left don't want a centre left Govt, but I do.


This is a brilliant piece and really rather scarily prophetic and incisive in it's analysis.

https://thequietus.com/articles/18714-jeremy-corbyn-labour-election-rally-polici

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:12 - Dec 13 with 2423 viewsWarkTheWarkITFC

Where Labour went wrong was having a man of principal in charge that those with above average intelligence fully understood.

If they'd have had a dishonest clown in charge who could have said things those with under average intelligence could clap along to then he'd have been in power.

They needed someone to claim Brexit would get done to match Johnson. Having someone wanting to look at the facts and then have a vote loses 52% of the vote straight away.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:13 - Dec 13 with 2417 viewsGaryCooper

With respect, you are young and idealistic, you are fully entitled to shoot from the hip a little, you are involved there are so many who simply can not be bothered, all the best.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:38 - Dec 13 with 2275 viewsCoastalblue

This country is crying out for a centre left party and a centre left Government. Labour should be a shoo in for that role but as they have done in the past they want to deviate well left of centre.

Now I appreciate many people believe that's where they should be, and they are often the most vocal but the reality is the British Public won't vote for that, never have, unlikely they ever will.

Surely a slightly left of centre Labour Government would be far preferable to what we have? They'll still be some saying they don't want that and want a proper all out socialist party, trouble is they can have that party but won't get that government.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:46 - Dec 13 with 2248 viewsBlueBadger

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:12 - Dec 13 by WarkTheWarkITFC

Where Labour went wrong was having a man of principal in charge that those with above average intelligence fully understood.

If they'd have had a dishonest clown in charge who could have said things those with under average intelligence could clap along to then he'd have been in power.

They needed someone to claim Brexit would get done to match Johnson. Having someone wanting to look at the facts and then have a vote loses 52% of the vote straight away.


It wasn't that it was a man of principle, it was that he was utterly, utterly unsuited to the job and lacking the ability to do it.

I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:22 - Dec 13 with 2186 viewsflimflam

Labour really need to reorganize and re brand themselves.

2 terms in the last 40 years suggests they are doing it wrong.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:30 - Dec 13 with 2161 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:13 - Dec 13 by GaryCooper

With respect, you are young and idealistic, you are fully entitled to shoot from the hip a little, you are involved there are so many who simply can not be bothered, all the best.


When exactly did you get so old and give up?

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:43 - Dec 13 with 2155 viewsbaxterbasics

I'd love to believe this was down to the public thoroughly rejecting Corbyns brand of far-left politics and reaffirming it's belief in individual freedom, but I'm not that naive.

Biggest factor: They did better than expected in 2017 because they committed to respecting the EU ref and retained the Labour leave vote. But then followed this up with two years of frustrating and obstructing Brexit. In an election where honesty (and lack of) has been regularly highlighted as an issue, being seen to disregard such a fundamental manifesto promise was taken as a betrayal in Labour heartlands. Breaking a pledge is on a par with any positive lie.

Also: The same Labour heartlands simply did not relate to Corbyn's metropolitan middle-class brand of socialism. He has personal Charisma on a par with a dusty Geography teacher trying to keep his class from misbehaving. (That's not my line btw, I read it elsewhere today).

zip
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:48 - Dec 13 with 2143 viewsNo9

Labour ignored the media & who owns it
Blair won because he worked that out from day one
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:48 - Dec 13 with 2143 viewschicoazul

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:12 - Dec 13 by WarkTheWarkITFC

Where Labour went wrong was having a man of principal in charge that those with above average intelligence fully understood.

If they'd have had a dishonest clown in charge who could have said things those with under average intelligence could clap along to then he'd have been in power.

They needed someone to claim Brexit would get done to match Johnson. Having someone wanting to look at the facts and then have a vote loses 52% of the vote straight away.


You really should realise that calling people you disagree with stupid is part of what has brought Labour and the LDs so very, very, very low.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:51 - Dec 13 with 2138 viewsElephantintheRoom

Not sure about this. There was a majority government of national unity already in place prior to the election - if only they could have agreed on anything. Their pie in the sky thinking then was shambolic. Having said all that the voting was more or less as previous..... 42% or thereabouts voting tory and a massive majority now being saddled with a right wing tory government hell bent on breaking up the country,

Labour have only been electable twice in the last half century - under Tony Blair... and 'New Labour' was the ultimate metropolitan elite. The lesson to be learned is two fold... the 'working man' wants to be worse off by 'Getting Brexit Done' far more vehemntly than sane people thought - ie sending those Europeans home is far more important to them than a functional transport system, working NHS or education. ANd keep all that free stuff. And if you know Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable - dont persist. BJ's Tories are repugnant, vile and incompetent - and Labour intransigence has made them look good.

Aside from that - dont be blinded by seats. 55% didnt vote SNP in Scotland.... 57% didn't vote Tory.... not that you'd notice from the clour of the map.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:52 - Dec 13 with 2132 viewsHerbivore

Brexit and Corbyn were the two biggest issues. People can say it wasn't really about Brexit, but it was. The major swing from Labour to Tory was in the leave voting constituencies in the Midlands and the North. Brexit trumped usual party loyalties. Brexit was always going to be hard for Labour since their supporters are mainly pro-remain but they also have a decent chunk of leave voters concentrated in these areas. Hard to keep both happy, in the end they kept neither happy. It was much easier for the Tories to just repeat 'Get Brexit Done' at a fatigued electorate, especially the leave voting contingent. They were successful in making it the key issue.

Corbyn was also a big problem. He's not seen as electable by too many people. Whilst the media has helped to perpetuate that, he has also shown a lack of leadership over both Brexit and antisemitism. His history of cavorting with terrorists, though the story of that is a little more nuanced than the tabloids suggest, also clearly impacts on how he is perceived by voters. Especially those 'traditional' voters. He's not seen as one of them, he's not seen as a patriotic man of the people. He should have gone earlier and someone without his baggage should have led Labour into this election.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 15:44 - Dec 13 with 2052 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:43 - Dec 13 by baxterbasics

I'd love to believe this was down to the public thoroughly rejecting Corbyns brand of far-left politics and reaffirming it's belief in individual freedom, but I'm not that naive.

Biggest factor: They did better than expected in 2017 because they committed to respecting the EU ref and retained the Labour leave vote. But then followed this up with two years of frustrating and obstructing Brexit. In an election where honesty (and lack of) has been regularly highlighted as an issue, being seen to disregard such a fundamental manifesto promise was taken as a betrayal in Labour heartlands. Breaking a pledge is on a par with any positive lie.

Also: The same Labour heartlands simply did not relate to Corbyn's metropolitan middle-class brand of socialism. He has personal Charisma on a par with a dusty Geography teacher trying to keep his class from misbehaving. (That's not my line btw, I read it elsewhere today).


Very fair!

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 15:53 - Dec 13 with 2032 viewstractordownsouth

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:43 - Dec 13 by baxterbasics

I'd love to believe this was down to the public thoroughly rejecting Corbyns brand of far-left politics and reaffirming it's belief in individual freedom, but I'm not that naive.

Biggest factor: They did better than expected in 2017 because they committed to respecting the EU ref and retained the Labour leave vote. But then followed this up with two years of frustrating and obstructing Brexit. In an election where honesty (and lack of) has been regularly highlighted as an issue, being seen to disregard such a fundamental manifesto promise was taken as a betrayal in Labour heartlands. Breaking a pledge is on a par with any positive lie.

Also: The same Labour heartlands simply did not relate to Corbyn's metropolitan middle-class brand of socialism. He has personal Charisma on a par with a dusty Geography teacher trying to keep his class from misbehaving. (That's not my line btw, I read it elsewhere today).


There's a lot of truth in that, but both Brexit deals that have been put forward haven't delivered what they promised and haven't included things like workers right' protections and the environment, which they said was a condition of Labour support. so I don't think it's fair to say that they broke the promise. But for the most part, Labour's lack of initiative on Brexit over the last 4 years has been a shambles.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:00 - Dec 13 with 1998 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:12 - Dec 13 by WarkTheWarkITFC

Where Labour went wrong was having a man of principal in charge that those with above average intelligence fully understood.

If they'd have had a dishonest clown in charge who could have said things those with under average intelligence could clap along to then he'd have been in power.

They needed someone to claim Brexit would get done to match Johnson. Having someone wanting to look at the facts and then have a vote loses 52% of the vote straight away.


All those people with above average intelligence and yet none of them could see the blindingly obvious that a Corbyn-led Labour Party was never going to win an election...

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:03 - Dec 13 with 1988 viewsjas0999

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:46 - Dec 13 by BlueBadger

It wasn't that it was a man of principle, it was that he was utterly, utterly unsuited to the job and lacking the ability to do it.


I wouldn’t ever vote for Labour under Corbyns leadership. If he goes soon, then I’ll seriously start listening to them again. Sadly, for Labour supporters it would seem many share the same view.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:04 - Dec 13 with 1982 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:52 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

Brexit and Corbyn were the two biggest issues. People can say it wasn't really about Brexit, but it was. The major swing from Labour to Tory was in the leave voting constituencies in the Midlands and the North. Brexit trumped usual party loyalties. Brexit was always going to be hard for Labour since their supporters are mainly pro-remain but they also have a decent chunk of leave voters concentrated in these areas. Hard to keep both happy, in the end they kept neither happy. It was much easier for the Tories to just repeat 'Get Brexit Done' at a fatigued electorate, especially the leave voting contingent. They were successful in making it the key issue.

Corbyn was also a big problem. He's not seen as electable by too many people. Whilst the media has helped to perpetuate that, he has also shown a lack of leadership over both Brexit and antisemitism. His history of cavorting with terrorists, though the story of that is a little more nuanced than the tabloids suggest, also clearly impacts on how he is perceived by voters. Especially those 'traditional' voters. He's not seen as one of them, he's not seen as a patriotic man of the people. He should have gone earlier and someone without his baggage should have led Labour into this election.


Spot on - reading various pieces today from Labour MP’s/candidates it’s clear that these were the 2 issues repeated on the campaign trail

And you’re absolutely right that they were between a rock and a hard place on Brexit but there’s no doubt that the on the fence strategy was not the answer and didn’t serve to appease anyone

As for Corbyn, perceptions of him and press treatment can be debated but ultimately what matters is the end result - and again it painfully clear that he’s toxic to huge swathes of the public, and therefore Labour never stood a chance

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:19 - Dec 13 with 1931 viewsgiant_stow

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:04 - Dec 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

Spot on - reading various pieces today from Labour MP’s/candidates it’s clear that these were the 2 issues repeated on the campaign trail

And you’re absolutely right that they were between a rock and a hard place on Brexit but there’s no doubt that the on the fence strategy was not the answer and didn’t serve to appease anyone

As for Corbyn, perceptions of him and press treatment can be debated but ultimately what matters is the end result - and again it painfully clear that he’s toxic to huge swathes of the public, and therefore Labour never stood a chance


Labour wouldn't have been between a rock and a hard place if it had always made itself the most enthusiastic defender of the EU (like it should have done). Its still their fault, but the fateful decision was further back than this election.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:53 - Dec 13 with 1862 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:19 - Dec 13 by giant_stow

Labour wouldn't have been between a rock and a hard place if it had always made itself the most enthusiastic defender of the EU (like it should have done). Its still their fault, but the fateful decision was further back than this election.


You could not be more wrong if you tried.....however you are a man of poor choices ;)

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 17:07 - Dec 13 with 1835 viewsgiant_stow

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:53 - Dec 13 by BanksterDebtSlave

You could not be more wrong if you tried.....however you are a man of poor choices ;)


I'm not surprised you disagree, but tell me why

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 17:08 - Dec 13 with 1829 viewsGaryCooper

Blimey this a woman scorned! Only a week ago urging the country to vote for him.

Screeching like a Banshee with gout Toynbee!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manif
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 17:11 - Dec 13 with 1815 viewsBlueForYou

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 16:19 - Dec 13 by giant_stow

Labour wouldn't have been between a rock and a hard place if it had always made itself the most enthusiastic defender of the EU (like it should have done). Its still their fault, but the fateful decision was further back than this election.


People see the Conservatives positively trying to get things done & everytime it is Corbyn & Labour the negative ones obstructing progress. That sticks in the mind. Corbyn in particular & Labour in general are seen as obstructing democracy, Swinson more so, & look what happened to both of them. You cant just ignore a major referendum & Labour & the LibDems have paid a high price. No surprise to me.

I was a Labour member in 83 when they were last obliterated. The longest suicide note in history! That was very educational to me back then. 2019 & Labour come up with another leftist/marxist manifesto, this time the most expensive suicide note! In 83 Labour was infiltrated by Militant, in 19 it was Momentum, same scenario, same result. They never learn. Working people dont want Marxism anymore, the world has moved on. Worst election figures since 1935. Its not only Corbyn, its Abbott, Butler, McDonnell, & others. They will never win an election with such an ultra left wing leadership.

Boris is unique, he has that certain charm, but is a very intelligent guy & is no fool. He is someone who can lead & get things done. Not sure where Labour go from here, but they're already in danger of being 10 years in opposition. The LibDems are history, the DUP close to it. I see the town of Ipswich had the good sense to vote Labour out.

There's been some absolute tripe written on here! Back to the football.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 17:13]
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