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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong 10:50 - Dec 13 with 4867 viewstractordownsouth

I've calmed a little since last night, and whilst I'm still disappointed, I think this is a more measured assessment of the election. Think I may stay away from TWTD during the next election night.

In hindsight: where Labour went wrong.

Having campaigned for The Liberal Democrats in my home constituency in the hope of removing Mr Johnson and having a more competent and compassionate coalition government in charge, I’m hugely disappointed by the morning’s results.

Despite the overall percentages for leave and referendum parties being split 50/50, electorally, we were never going to win the argument on the EU. Our door- knocking yesterday, I spoke to many Brexit voters who were angry that we were proposing a vote on the Brexit deal. Whenever I tried to explain that the current Brexit deal bares very little resemblance to what Mr Johnson promised as head of Vote Leave, the response I got was “I don’t care, I just want it done.” Whilst I understand the frustration, I cannot personally understand why someone would continue to advocate something if their reasons for originally advocating it were removed, and it illustrates that the Tory party, like Trump and the Vote Leave campaign, have helped reduce political debate in this country to meaningless sloganeering. That said, Mr Corbyn missed endless own goals in debates to really hammer home that Brexit will not be done with the passing of the withdrawal agreement, and that democracy does not end with one vote, it’s about accountability and leadership, not dodging scrutiny and hiding in fridges.

As much as I believe him to be more competent than Mr Johnson, Mr Corbyn failed spectacularly in not coming up with a clear Brexit policy until last month — in an environment dominated by slogans, the electorate needed time to understand a more nuanced position; I do wonder that if we had adopted a left wing leave stance, it would have held water in the northern areas. We may then have been able to capitalise on the opportunity to hit the Tories on the scandalous rise in homelessness and foodbanks and show that the Tories’ spending plans are unfunded — they have proposed no tax changes. I have no doubt that Corbyn is a decent man, however by alienating competent Labour MPs in favour of the likes of Dianne Abbott and the the failure to remove Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic remarks, he lost the moral high ground from which to attack the Tories for their own incompetent cabinet members and racism issues. I also think that perhaps introducing more moderate economic changes may have helped; many of the proposals were normal for a lot of Europe, but in a historically right wing nation, this scale of change was maybe too much for some.

So, what do Labour need in the future? The view of Labour is that it's become a metropolitan elite party ( which is inaccurate, considering the fact that many people from poor backgrounds voted for a party who have decimated public services and overseen a huge rise in poverty) so I think we need a leader from outside London to get the working classes back onside and I have joined the Labour Party in order to help elect someone like Yvette Cooper or Jess Phillips. Sure, the Tory press will still go after any Labour leader but clearly, a new one is needed.

I genuinely feel for the working people who have put their trust in the Tory party as they are going to be very, very disappointed. A lot of the doorstep issues in my Cornish constituency (Cornwall being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding) concerned justified discontent about how lives were going, yet people were voting for the incumbent Tory MP and government, both of whom have achieved nothing for the area. One telling sign was that no Tory or Brexiteer was talking about economic achievments or the gains to be made from Brexit as there aren't any. We’ve been programmed into thinking Brexit is a silver bullet which will solve all the problems, despite all economic analysis suggesting that public services and the low paid will suffer the most. I think the most dangerous soundbite of the last 4 years is Michael Gove claiming that “The British People have had enough of experts”, riding roughshod over facts and insight. British politics is truly in the gutter and we need to drag it out. One way we can do this is by embracing the tactical voting, the leavers just did it and look where that got them. It’s not a compromise of your principles to vote for your second-choice candidate in order to oppose your least favourite.

Everyone who knows me knows that I am not a Tory or a Brexiteer, but I do genuinely hope that both things can help our country. However, history and economic analysis do not suggest that they will. The Tories are now responsible for many of the communities they have decimated in the last few years and I wish those people who voted for them good luck, they are really going to need it.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 10:55]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:49 - Dec 14 with 645 viewsChurchman

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 09:18 - Dec 14 by BloomBlue

The problem with that is Labour voters realised that Labour plans for spending would result in tax increases for all and they would be financially worse off. All Labour was doing was kicking the poverty can down the road. Yes a few studenty types fell for it, but the vast majority of people know if you attack businesses you dont have any public services.
Labour stopped listening to its voters. Until Labour supporters kick out Momentum nothing will change, it's like one of those religious cults which brainwashes a few people. As Alan Johnson said yesterday

“They can get back to their student politics. I feel really angry about this experiment of going back to the future.”


Alan Johnson’s assault on Jon Lansman was full on and worth watching. I happen to think he is correct too. Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people. Add in endless ‘bread and circus’ promises and a non-position on Brexit and they did the tories work for them. I believe that unless the centre-left reclaims the Labour Party, as Kinnock did against a far less powerful Militant in the 80s, Momentum Labour will repeat the dose in five years time and get hammered in the polls again. We desperately need a strong opposition to shine a light on the Government. I hope the Labour Party can get it’s act together.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:00 - Dec 14 with 633 viewssparks

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:49 - Dec 14 by Churchman

Alan Johnson’s assault on Jon Lansman was full on and worth watching. I happen to think he is correct too. Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people. Add in endless ‘bread and circus’ promises and a non-position on Brexit and they did the tories work for them. I believe that unless the centre-left reclaims the Labour Party, as Kinnock did against a far less powerful Militant in the 80s, Momentum Labour will repeat the dose in five years time and get hammered in the polls again. We desperately need a strong opposition to shine a light on the Government. I hope the Labour Party can get it’s act together.


Couldnt agree more.

But many labourites- even teh somewhat more moderate ones cannot see it andwant to cry about media and a smear campaign instead.

The thing with Corbyn is that he was attacked a lot because there was so much to attack. Of course it wasnt all fair or accurate- but much of it had some foundation. McDonnell with his little red book said it all. Someone so wed to the ideology that he could not see that waving around the book of a mass murderer would be seen by many to be problematic...
[Post edited 14 Dec 2019 13:02]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:00 - Dec 14 with 628 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:06 - Dec 14 by Dennyx4

I'm sorry disagree - the reason that Labour lost was their different stance on Brexit, with majority of Leave voters feeling ignored by Labour.

The only real difference between the last election and Thursday's was Labour's change of stance on Brexit - From honouring the referendum at the last election to a 2nd referendum at this one.

It would appear honouring the referendum kept their remain voters as well as leave, but the change of stance lost the leave voters.


Disagree. If Labour were still suporting leave with no second referendum I and many other remain suporting Labour voters - the bulk of their voter base - wouldn't have voted for them. If you honestly think their vote outside the leave heartlands would have held up if they were intent on leaving I think you're being very naive. In fact there were some analyses done a while ago that showed that firmly backing remain would be the best electoral policy for Labour.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:03 - Dec 14 with 626 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:46 - Dec 14 by Leaky

Labour's policies were the problem. It reminded many voter's of a certain age, of the 60's & 70's when the UK was described as the sick man of Europe. Winter of discontent. When the media used to announce the number of days lost through strikes.


The evidence doesn't really back that idea up. Maybe voters like you who were never considering voting Labour didn't like the policies either but for the people Labour needed to convince it was Brexit and Corbyn that were the issues.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:39 - Dec 14 with 608 viewsDarth_Koont

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:49 - Dec 14 by Churchman

Alan Johnson’s assault on Jon Lansman was full on and worth watching. I happen to think he is correct too. Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people. Add in endless ‘bread and circus’ promises and a non-position on Brexit and they did the tories work for them. I believe that unless the centre-left reclaims the Labour Party, as Kinnock did against a far less powerful Militant in the 80s, Momentum Labour will repeat the dose in five years time and get hammered in the polls again. We desperately need a strong opposition to shine a light on the Government. I hope the Labour Party can get it’s act together.


"Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people." You might be right in terms of people's perceptions but that's insane objectively in terms of those who were voted in on a landslide.

Presumably they are the right type of toxic?
[Post edited 14 Dec 2019 13:42]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:41 - Dec 14 with 607 viewstractordownsouth

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:46 - Dec 14 by Leaky

Labour's policies were the problem. It reminded many voter's of a certain age, of the 60's & 70's when the UK was described as the sick man of Europe. Winter of discontent. When the media used to announce the number of days lost through strikes.


As i've said above, it's a combination of Corbyn, Brexit and the policies. With only one of those issues, we would not have been defeated.

Granted, Corbyn was the leader in 2017, but he was up against an equally uncharismatic leader. As much as I think Johnson is a vile person and terrible leader, he generates headlines. The fact that no labour voices were prominent during the referendum meant that the Tories owned the Brexit narrative, which allowed them to hoover up the Brexit vote. The policies were broadly similar to this time, but again the Tories didn't have an effective slogan last time, which allowed all of their aims this time to be blinded by the simplistic promise of " getting it done"

The Tory press was as awful as ever, but we have to play by their rules unfortunately and the three together were a toxic mix.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:48 - Dec 14 with 589 viewsDarth_Koont

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:03 - Dec 14 by Herbivore

The evidence doesn't really back that idea up. Maybe voters like you who were never considering voting Labour didn't like the policies either but for the people Labour needed to convince it was Brexit and Corbyn that were the issues.


Indeed. I suspect the people who could get past Labour's Brexit position, see the wood from the trees surrounding Corbyn and then reach the point that it was the policies that went too far are a smallish percentage.

The poster is right in one sense though. The left-of-centre, progressive policies informed most of the media and party political opposition to Corbyn. Even the antisemitism issue.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:05 - Dec 14 with 572 viewsTrequartista

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:06 - Dec 14 by Dennyx4

I'm sorry disagree - the reason that Labour lost was their different stance on Brexit, with majority of Leave voters feeling ignored by Labour.

The only real difference between the last election and Thursday's was Labour's change of stance on Brexit - From honouring the referendum at the last election to a 2nd referendum at this one.

It would appear honouring the referendum kept their remain voters as well as leave, but the change of stance lost the leave voters.


At 1am on Friday morning after Blyth Valley had gone blue i thought it was Brexit, citing the same reasons you have, and I still believe he was snookered over Brexit.

But looking at the results as a whole it's clear Corbyn is equally as big an issue. With the usual caveat about the accuracy of opinion polls, this one is quite telling


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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:30 - Dec 14 with 557 viewsChurchman

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:39 - Dec 14 by Darth_Koont

"Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people." You might be right in terms of people's perceptions but that's insane objectively in terms of those who were voted in on a landslide.

Presumably they are the right type of toxic?
[Post edited 14 Dec 2019 13:42]


Oh, this conjecture is very much about perceptions and of course, they often don’t stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Nor are they consistent if this election is to go by. But the reality though is that a government who deserved to be thrown out with aplomb was re-elected with a landslide so yes, they were the ‘right side of toxic’, mad though that sounds.

Apologies, I am not sure I am making a lot of sense here but it will be interesting to see where the Labour Party take themselves now.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 17:45 - Dec 14 with 523 viewsDennyx4

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:05 - Dec 14 by Trequartista

At 1am on Friday morning after Blyth Valley had gone blue i thought it was Brexit, citing the same reasons you have, and I still believe he was snookered over Brexit.

But looking at the results as a whole it's clear Corbyn is equally as big an issue. With the usual caveat about the accuracy of opinion polls, this one is quite telling



Thanks for sharing.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:44 - Dec 14 with 503 viewsGaryCooper

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:49 - Dec 14 by Churchman

Alan Johnson’s assault on Jon Lansman was full on and worth watching. I happen to think he is correct too. Momentum and Corbyn, McDonnell were too toxic for people. Add in endless ‘bread and circus’ promises and a non-position on Brexit and they did the tories work for them. I believe that unless the centre-left reclaims the Labour Party, as Kinnock did against a far less powerful Militant in the 80s, Momentum Labour will repeat the dose in five years time and get hammered in the polls again. We desperately need a strong opposition to shine a light on the Government. I hope the Labour Party can get it’s act together.


We now live in a country where the only hope for the opposition is for the country to fail, imagine that? Supporters of the labour party wanting to see the country fail.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 19:04 - Dec 14 with 484 viewshampstead_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:44 - Dec 14 by GaryCooper

We now live in a country where the only hope for the opposition is for the country to fail, imagine that? Supporters of the labour party wanting to see the country fail.


I think to be fair, the only Labour supporters who want to see us fail are those who love JC and his ways.

There are clearly thousands and thousands of great people who normally vote Labour who want us to succeed.

If we can put the hard left in a small pot, seal it like some time capsule, and be moderate Tories then I think you'll find stability and peace will resume.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 19:08 - Dec 14 with 483 viewsnodge_blue

What went wrong is more short:

Politics in the U.K. needs to be fought in the centre ground, based on realistic spending plans and by people who are decent leaders. Until momentum own that truth labour will struggle.

Listen to Alan Johnston on election night.

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