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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong 10:50 - Dec 13 with 4866 viewstractordownsouth

I've calmed a little since last night, and whilst I'm still disappointed, I think this is a more measured assessment of the election. Think I may stay away from TWTD during the next election night.

In hindsight: where Labour went wrong.

Having campaigned for The Liberal Democrats in my home constituency in the hope of removing Mr Johnson and having a more competent and compassionate coalition government in charge, I’m hugely disappointed by the morning’s results.

Despite the overall percentages for leave and referendum parties being split 50/50, electorally, we were never going to win the argument on the EU. Our door- knocking yesterday, I spoke to many Brexit voters who were angry that we were proposing a vote on the Brexit deal. Whenever I tried to explain that the current Brexit deal bares very little resemblance to what Mr Johnson promised as head of Vote Leave, the response I got was “I don’t care, I just want it done.” Whilst I understand the frustration, I cannot personally understand why someone would continue to advocate something if their reasons for originally advocating it were removed, and it illustrates that the Tory party, like Trump and the Vote Leave campaign, have helped reduce political debate in this country to meaningless sloganeering. That said, Mr Corbyn missed endless own goals in debates to really hammer home that Brexit will not be done with the passing of the withdrawal agreement, and that democracy does not end with one vote, it’s about accountability and leadership, not dodging scrutiny and hiding in fridges.

As much as I believe him to be more competent than Mr Johnson, Mr Corbyn failed spectacularly in not coming up with a clear Brexit policy until last month — in an environment dominated by slogans, the electorate needed time to understand a more nuanced position; I do wonder that if we had adopted a left wing leave stance, it would have held water in the northern areas. We may then have been able to capitalise on the opportunity to hit the Tories on the scandalous rise in homelessness and foodbanks and show that the Tories’ spending plans are unfunded — they have proposed no tax changes. I have no doubt that Corbyn is a decent man, however by alienating competent Labour MPs in favour of the likes of Dianne Abbott and the the failure to remove Ken Livingstone for anti-semitic remarks, he lost the moral high ground from which to attack the Tories for their own incompetent cabinet members and racism issues. I also think that perhaps introducing more moderate economic changes may have helped; many of the proposals were normal for a lot of Europe, but in a historically right wing nation, this scale of change was maybe too much for some.

So, what do Labour need in the future? The view of Labour is that it's become a metropolitan elite party ( which is inaccurate, considering the fact that many people from poor backgrounds voted for a party who have decimated public services and overseen a huge rise in poverty) so I think we need a leader from outside London to get the working classes back onside and I have joined the Labour Party in order to help elect someone like Yvette Cooper or Jess Phillips. Sure, the Tory press will still go after any Labour leader but clearly, a new one is needed.

I genuinely feel for the working people who have put their trust in the Tory party as they are going to be very, very disappointed. A lot of the doorstep issues in my Cornish constituency (Cornwall being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding) concerned justified discontent about how lives were going, yet people were voting for the incumbent Tory MP and government, both of whom have achieved nothing for the area. One telling sign was that no Tory or Brexiteer was talking about economic achievments or the gains to be made from Brexit as there aren't any. We’ve been programmed into thinking Brexit is a silver bullet which will solve all the problems, despite all economic analysis suggesting that public services and the low paid will suffer the most. I think the most dangerous soundbite of the last 4 years is Michael Gove claiming that “The British People have had enough of experts”, riding roughshod over facts and insight. British politics is truly in the gutter and we need to drag it out. One way we can do this is by embracing the tactical voting, the leavers just did it and look where that got them. It’s not a compromise of your principles to vote for your second-choice candidate in order to oppose your least favourite.

Everyone who knows me knows that I am not a Tory or a Brexiteer, but I do genuinely hope that both things can help our country. However, history and economic analysis do not suggest that they will. The Tories are now responsible for many of the communities they have decimated in the last few years and I wish those people who voted for them good luck, they are really going to need it.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 10:55]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:00 - Dec 13 with 1698 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 17:11 - Dec 13 by BlueForYou

People see the Conservatives positively trying to get things done & everytime it is Corbyn & Labour the negative ones obstructing progress. That sticks in the mind. Corbyn in particular & Labour in general are seen as obstructing democracy, Swinson more so, & look what happened to both of them. You cant just ignore a major referendum & Labour & the LibDems have paid a high price. No surprise to me.

I was a Labour member in 83 when they were last obliterated. The longest suicide note in history! That was very educational to me back then. 2019 & Labour come up with another leftist/marxist manifesto, this time the most expensive suicide note! In 83 Labour was infiltrated by Militant, in 19 it was Momentum, same scenario, same result. They never learn. Working people dont want Marxism anymore, the world has moved on. Worst election figures since 1935. Its not only Corbyn, its Abbott, Butler, McDonnell, & others. They will never win an election with such an ultra left wing leadership.

Boris is unique, he has that certain charm, but is a very intelligent guy & is no fool. He is someone who can lead & get things done. Not sure where Labour go from here, but they're already in danger of being 10 years in opposition. The LibDems are history, the DUP close to it. I see the town of Ipswich had the good sense to vote Labour out.

There's been some absolute tripe written on here! Back to the football.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 17:13]


The policies weren't really the issue with voters. The policies polled well. The issues really were Brexit and Corbyn.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:10 - Dec 13 with 1686 viewsOnionboy

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:00 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

The policies weren't really the issue with voters. The policies polled well. The issues really were Brexit and Corbyn.


How do we know the policies polled well m8?
I can't wait to get our party back, the rebuilding starts now.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:15 - Dec 13 with 1677 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:10 - Dec 13 by Onionboy

How do we know the policies polled well m8?
I can't wait to get our party back, the rebuilding starts now.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tactical-voting-blog/labour-manif

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:35 - Dec 13 with 1658 viewsSwansea_Blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:00 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

The policies weren't really the issue with voters. The policies polled well. The issues really were Brexit and Corbyn.



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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:39 - Dec 13 with 1649 viewsBloomBlue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:00 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

The policies weren't really the issue with voters. The policies polled well. The issues really were Brexit and Corbyn.


But the left wingers in the Labour will never accept it was Corbyn the Momentum cult has brainwashed them.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:49 - Dec 13 with 1626 viewsDarth_Koont

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:39 - Dec 13 by BloomBlue

But the left wingers in the Labour will never accept it was Corbyn the Momentum cult has brainwashed them.


It was Corbyn. Definitely.

But the vast majority of that was based on how he was portrayed, not who he really is and what he stands for. He can for example be criticised for his personal and historic stance on the EU and how that might have informed his party's approach to Brexit early on. By the time he and the party came to a clearer yet nuanced view the damage had already been done that he was just wrong about Brexit whoever you asked. And even that the compromise solution was neither one thing nor the other which is nonsense.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 18:50]

Pronouns: He/Him

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:51 - Dec 13 with 1624 viewshampstead_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:46 - Dec 13 by BlueBadger

It wasn't that it was a man of principle, it was that he was utterly, utterly unsuited to the job and lacking the ability to do it.


Hang-on.....you've spent the last few weeks slamming me for lifting the lid on JC and showing him for the utterly rancid thing he is....

JC and JM lost the election. Unelectable. Kneel before terrorists at more besides.....

Edit: It was not a Brexit election at all. The fact that JC cannot accept the clear truth further endorses the fact that he is a rat. I nearly wet myself last night when JM was on telly blaming Brexit.....Hilarious.....

D'Nile.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 18:53]

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:51 - Dec 13 with 1624 viewscrunchie1978

The north woke up to what the labour party really are!
Boris done a trump and simply told the disenfranchised what they wanted to hear.
This election was about brexit.....you wont see a landslide like this again in a generation.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:55 - Dec 13 with 1617 viewshampstead_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:12 - Dec 13 by WarkTheWarkITFC

Where Labour went wrong was having a man of principal in charge that those with above average intelligence fully understood.

If they'd have had a dishonest clown in charge who could have said things those with under average intelligence could clap along to then he'd have been in power.

They needed someone to claim Brexit would get done to match Johnson. Having someone wanting to look at the facts and then have a vote loses 52% of the vote straight away.


Hahahahahahaha

Please put the Kool Aid down. You need a good detox.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 20:53 - Dec 13 with 1589 viewsTrequartista

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:52 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

Brexit and Corbyn were the two biggest issues. People can say it wasn't really about Brexit, but it was. The major swing from Labour to Tory was in the leave voting constituencies in the Midlands and the North. Brexit trumped usual party loyalties. Brexit was always going to be hard for Labour since their supporters are mainly pro-remain but they also have a decent chunk of leave voters concentrated in these areas. Hard to keep both happy, in the end they kept neither happy. It was much easier for the Tories to just repeat 'Get Brexit Done' at a fatigued electorate, especially the leave voting contingent. They were successful in making it the key issue.

Corbyn was also a big problem. He's not seen as electable by too many people. Whilst the media has helped to perpetuate that, he has also shown a lack of leadership over both Brexit and antisemitism. His history of cavorting with terrorists, though the story of that is a little more nuanced than the tabloids suggest, also clearly impacts on how he is perceived by voters. Especially those 'traditional' voters. He's not seen as one of them, he's not seen as a patriotic man of the people. He should have gone earlier and someone without his baggage should have led Labour into this election.


Pretty much spot on. Well I never.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 21:01 - Dec 13 with 1581 viewscrunchie1978

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 14:52 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

Brexit and Corbyn were the two biggest issues. People can say it wasn't really about Brexit, but it was. The major swing from Labour to Tory was in the leave voting constituencies in the Midlands and the North. Brexit trumped usual party loyalties. Brexit was always going to be hard for Labour since their supporters are mainly pro-remain but they also have a decent chunk of leave voters concentrated in these areas. Hard to keep both happy, in the end they kept neither happy. It was much easier for the Tories to just repeat 'Get Brexit Done' at a fatigued electorate, especially the leave voting contingent. They were successful in making it the key issue.

Corbyn was also a big problem. He's not seen as electable by too many people. Whilst the media has helped to perpetuate that, he has also shown a lack of leadership over both Brexit and antisemitism. His history of cavorting with terrorists, though the story of that is a little more nuanced than the tabloids suggest, also clearly impacts on how he is perceived by voters. Especially those 'traditional' voters. He's not seen as one of them, he's not seen as a patriotic man of the people. He should have gone earlier and someone without his baggage should have led Labour into this election.


I'd say the single biggest problem was labour ignoring their 'leave voting' constitutes

The north turned blue overnight!
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 22:01 - Dec 13 with 1555 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 21:01 - Dec 13 by crunchie1978

I'd say the single biggest problem was labour ignoring their 'leave voting' constitutes

The north turned blue overnight!


They didn't ignore them, if they'd wanted to ignore them they'd have backed remain. If they'd come out and backed leaving they'd have lost a load of seats in remain areas. Their support is predominantly remain, it's about a 65/35 split.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 23:39 - Dec 13 with 1530 viewsm14_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:51 - Dec 13 by hampstead_blue

Hang-on.....you've spent the last few weeks slamming me for lifting the lid on JC and showing him for the utterly rancid thing he is....

JC and JM lost the election. Unelectable. Kneel before terrorists at more besides.....

Edit: It was not a Brexit election at all. The fact that JC cannot accept the clear truth further endorses the fact that he is a rat. I nearly wet myself last night when JM was on telly blaming Brexit.....Hilarious.....

D'Nile.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 18:53]


I think BB’s been entirely consistent with his views on JC.

You’ve won, you really don’t need to show everyone your complete lack of class any more.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 23:50 - Dec 13 with 1513 viewsSuffolktractor

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 22:01 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

They didn't ignore them, if they'd wanted to ignore them they'd have backed remain. If they'd come out and backed leaving they'd have lost a load of seats in remain areas. Their support is predominantly remain, it's about a 65/35 split.


Their problem on Brexit was not being clear and having a position. I don’t know the % of leave/remain of Tories, but they made it clear they were backing the democratic vote from 2016, giving people a clear choice. People were fed up with not being listened to
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 01:28 - Dec 14 with 1479 viewsThe_Last_Baron

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 13:38 - Dec 13 by Coastalblue

This country is crying out for a centre left party and a centre left Government. Labour should be a shoo in for that role but as they have done in the past they want to deviate well left of centre.

Now I appreciate many people believe that's where they should be, and they are often the most vocal but the reality is the British Public won't vote for that, never have, unlikely they ever will.

Surely a slightly left of centre Labour Government would be far preferable to what we have? They'll still be some saying they don't want that and want a proper all out socialist party, trouble is they can have that party but won't get that government.


The country was crying out for a proper right wing Conservative Government.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 07:53 - Dec 14 with 1441 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 23:50 - Dec 13 by Suffolktractor

Their problem on Brexit was not being clear and having a position. I don’t know the % of leave/remain of Tories, but they made it clear they were backing the democratic vote from 2016, giving people a clear choice. People were fed up with not being listened to


It was easier for the Tories to take a position since (a) most of their voters backed leave and (b) as the party who called and promised to implement the referendum they couldn't really go back on it. For Labour, backing remain would have led to the same losses we saw this week, if not more. Backing leave would have lost them seats in remain areas and a soft Brexit position may also have still lost them some leave seats. They were somewhat trapped. I think had they adopted and properly explained the position they ultimately took at a much earlier stage it might have limited the damage but Brexit was always going to be a tough issue for them.

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 08:01 - Dec 14 with 1432 viewsm14_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 07:53 - Dec 14 by Herbivore

It was easier for the Tories to take a position since (a) most of their voters backed leave and (b) as the party who called and promised to implement the referendum they couldn't really go back on it. For Labour, backing remain would have led to the same losses we saw this week, if not more. Backing leave would have lost them seats in remain areas and a soft Brexit position may also have still lost them some leave seats. They were somewhat trapped. I think had they adopted and properly explained the position they ultimately took at a much earlier stage it might have limited the damage but Brexit was always going to be a tough issue for them.


Plus they can afford to be much more blasé about the economic impact since they couldn’t care less about the poor and vulnerable.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 08:32 - Dec 14 with 1420 viewsHerbivore

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 08:01 - Dec 14 by m14_blue

Plus they can afford to be much more blasé about the economic impact since they couldn’t care less about the poor and vulnerable.


Precisely this. Labour had to try to articulate why they wouldn't just crash us out at any cost which is much trickier than just repeating 'Get Brexit Done' over and over.
[Post edited 14 Dec 2019 9:22]

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 09:18 - Dec 14 with 1410 viewsBloomBlue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 08:01 - Dec 14 by m14_blue

Plus they can afford to be much more blasé about the economic impact since they couldn’t care less about the poor and vulnerable.


The problem with that is Labour voters realised that Labour plans for spending would result in tax increases for all and they would be financially worse off. All Labour was doing was kicking the poverty can down the road. Yes a few studenty types fell for it, but the vast majority of people know if you attack businesses you dont have any public services.
Labour stopped listening to its voters. Until Labour supporters kick out Momentum nothing will change, it's like one of those religious cults which brainwashes a few people. As Alan Johnson said yesterday

“They can get back to their student politics. I feel really angry about this experiment of going back to the future.”
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 10:19 - Dec 14 with 1393 viewshampstead_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 09:18 - Dec 14 by BloomBlue

The problem with that is Labour voters realised that Labour plans for spending would result in tax increases for all and they would be financially worse off. All Labour was doing was kicking the poverty can down the road. Yes a few studenty types fell for it, but the vast majority of people know if you attack businesses you dont have any public services.
Labour stopped listening to its voters. Until Labour supporters kick out Momentum nothing will change, it's like one of those religious cults which brainwashes a few people. As Alan Johnson said yesterday

“They can get back to their student politics. I feel really angry about this experiment of going back to the future.”


Well said

One problem is that Momentum have built some pretty high walls around the party.
The sensible labour person is going to need some laser guided precision munitions to break through.


Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 10:47 - Dec 14 with 1373 viewsSwansea_Blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 09:18 - Dec 14 by BloomBlue

The problem with that is Labour voters realised that Labour plans for spending would result in tax increases for all and they would be financially worse off. All Labour was doing was kicking the poverty can down the road. Yes a few studenty types fell for it, but the vast majority of people know if you attack businesses you dont have any public services.
Labour stopped listening to its voters. Until Labour supporters kick out Momentum nothing will change, it's like one of those religious cults which brainwashes a few people. As Alan Johnson said yesterday

“They can get back to their student politics. I feel really angry about this experiment of going back to the future.”


The Tory messaging that Labour would make everyone worse off and wreck the economy was obviously powerful, despite there not being any credible evidence for it (and thousands of such ads having to be pulled for being untruthful).

People will be hit a lot harder by Brexit, but if that’s what they want...

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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 10:59 - Dec 14 with 1368 viewshampstead_blue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 10:47 - Dec 14 by Swansea_Blue

The Tory messaging that Labour would make everyone worse off and wreck the economy was obviously powerful, despite there not being any credible evidence for it (and thousands of such ads having to be pulled for being untruthful).

People will be hit a lot harder by Brexit, but if that’s what they want...


There was for sure a huge amount of money offered-up. I've heard on R4 that people were somehow confused by it all.
Jess Phillips yesterday on R4 felt there was too much new stuff day after day. I think voters were a bit shocked and numbed by it all.
Margaret Hodge said it was Corbyn.

A bit of both on the doorstep from their side.

I do think there was a lot of easy targets when JM starting throwing money around.
If he had stuck to half the ideas I think it would have been more credible and harder to counter.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:06 - Dec 14 with 1366 viewsDennyx4

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 22:01 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

They didn't ignore them, if they'd wanted to ignore them they'd have backed remain. If they'd come out and backed leaving they'd have lost a load of seats in remain areas. Their support is predominantly remain, it's about a 65/35 split.


I'm sorry disagree - the reason that Labour lost was their different stance on Brexit, with majority of Leave voters feeling ignored by Labour.

The only real difference between the last election and Thursday's was Labour's change of stance on Brexit - From honouring the referendum at the last election to a 2nd referendum at this one.

It would appear honouring the referendum kept their remain voters as well as leave, but the change of stance lost the leave voters.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:21 - Dec 14 with 1339 viewsBloomBlue

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 11:06 - Dec 14 by Dennyx4

I'm sorry disagree - the reason that Labour lost was their different stance on Brexit, with majority of Leave voters feeling ignored by Labour.

The only real difference between the last election and Thursday's was Labour's change of stance on Brexit - From honouring the referendum at the last election to a 2nd referendum at this one.

It would appear honouring the referendum kept their remain voters as well as leave, but the change of stance lost the leave voters.


I agree, it was Labour's indecision on Brexit which caused the issue. At the last GE they were all for leaving nothing about a second referendum, then in this GE talk of a second referendum but no direction from Corbyn.
I said it months ago people want a PM who can make decisions it is a key part of the role, when you're PM and you have to make a decision you cannot say we'll discuss it at the next party conference and Corbyn sitting on the fence screamed to the public 'I'm not a decision maker'

But Boris for all his stupidity kept going on about leaving ie a decision maker.

The public know nobody is perfect but they also know what they expect from a PM / Government and that's not a fence sitter.

I still think it wasnt only Brexit which destroyed Labour but it was Corbyn's inability to make a decision on that major item that made Labour supporters turn against. The sad thing is his supporters won't accept it and just blame the media.
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In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 12:46 - Dec 14 with 1326 viewsLeaky

In Hindsight:: Where Labour went wrong on 18:00 - Dec 13 by Herbivore

The policies weren't really the issue with voters. The policies polled well. The issues really were Brexit and Corbyn.


Labour's policies were the problem. It reminded many voter's of a certain age, of the 60's & 70's when the UK was described as the sick man of Europe. Winter of discontent. When the media used to announce the number of days lost through strikes.
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