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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... 18:49 - Dec 13 with 2456 viewsblueconscience

.. How many years would it take for the country to become a new member of the EU? and once that happens will she be happy to fund the installation of a hard border, border controls etc etc?


Not trying to be argumentative or anything, am just a little curious.
[Post edited 13 Dec 2019 18:53]
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:22 - Dec 15 with 469 viewsDarth_Koont

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 11:56 - Dec 15 by pointofblue

It’s worth considering the SNP drew in 45% of the popular vote on Thursday; the unionist parties claimed 55%. That’s around the same split as the independence referendum in 2014, not that everyone who wants independence voted SNP and vice versa.


On the independence question alone the polls are now neck and neck. And that was before a hard Brexit was confirmed.
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:35 - Dec 15 with 450 viewsDarth_Koont

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:20 - Dec 15 by jas0999

Why should only Scotland get to vote? Why not England, Wales and NI? Would be an intriguing outcome.


Because what does Scottish self-determination have to do with England?

The attitude that it does is part of the whole problem for the regions in this country not just the other home nations. For too long, regions and people around the UK have been taken for granted because their vote hasn't been important enough for the major parties.
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:36 - Dec 15 with 450 viewsGriller

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:20 - Dec 15 by jas0999

Why should only Scotland get to vote? Why not England, Wales and NI? Would be an intriguing outcome.


I'm glad you agree with me.
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:41 - Dec 15 with 448 viewsTrequartista

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:20 - Dec 15 by jas0999

Why should only Scotland get to vote? Why not England, Wales and NI? Would be an intriguing outcome.


It is an argument with merits on both sides, and consequently an argument that is replicated throughout the world in the form of military conflict.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:07 - Dec 15 with 434 viewsWeWereZombies

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 08:04 - Dec 15 by bluejacko

You are right about the Czechs and Slovaks,it goes to show that with good will on both sides what can be accomplished. I think I am right in saying though that both countries were not in the EU at the time so only had to agree between themselves the terms of their split. Scotland’s leaving the UK really should not be a problem. Their troubles will begin when and if they get back into the EU,
After all there is no GFA for them to fall back on,virtually all their trade will have to go through England whether to us or the EU with again the possibility of a hard border.
I would rather see them stay but it is their choice.


As is often said you learn things all the time on the TWTD forum. Now that I know that the Clyde, the Moray Firth and the Firth of Forth have all dried up making importing and exporting from Scotland impossible other than by the A1, A7, A68 and M74 I shall keep an eye out for rivers that were once navigable and have suddenly lost that quality as I drive south later on this week...

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:16 - Dec 15 with 431 viewsBLUEBEAT

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 08:18 - Dec 15 by TractorWood

Tax spend on services is far higher per capita in Scotland (free uni/elderly care) for what is a weaker economy. Independence sounds good to those that want to hear it but it feels like a Brexit on steroids. Aka turkey's voting for Christmas.


And what can they offer the rest of the world? Whiskey?

The North Sea rig complexes that pedal increasingly unpopular and diminishing fossil fuels will not be given up.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:30 - Dec 15 with 424 viewsNo9

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 19:00 - Dec 13 by BloomBlue

The Scottish gov financial something (I forget what is called) said it would probably take 10 years and involved a lot of austerity to achieve the EU joining rules. I remember Andrew Neil pinning Sturgeon down on that although she disagreed with the level of austerity, but dort of agreed the 10 year timeframe
Scotland has one of the largest debts of any country in Europe. Plus there are a lot of other questions for example if Scotland keep the £ will the EU allow that given it will be controlled by a Country that isnt part of the EU.


Scotland is already aligned to EU rules and as it's legal system is closer to that of European countries the obstacles will be few.
If you think Ms Sturgeon had not already sounded out other EU members & got the nod you are not living in the real world
Andrew Neil - the billionaires tool - Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! ha!
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:31 - Dec 15 with 424 viewsbluejacko

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:07 - Dec 15 by WeWereZombies

As is often said you learn things all the time on the TWTD forum. Now that I know that the Clyde, the Moray Firth and the Firth of Forth have all dried up making importing and exporting from Scotland impossible other than by the A1, A7, A68 and M74 I shall keep an eye out for rivers that were once navigable and have suddenly lost that quality as I drive south later on this week...


Oh dear that’s a bit nasty, of course ferries will be able to cope with some of the traffic but the majority will still have to come through the UK and of course as we are their biggest market it will still have to come south won’t it?
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:36 - Dec 15 with 423 viewsSwansea_Blue

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 21:10 - Dec 13 by wkj

I can confirm the Currency would be named the Sturgeon as she is elevated to the status of Monarch with Ian Blackford filling her role as great and glorious leader.


Ian Blackford’s filling her what?

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:46 - Dec 15 with 414 viewsNo9

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:07 - Dec 15 by WeWereZombies

As is often said you learn things all the time on the TWTD forum. Now that I know that the Clyde, the Moray Firth and the Firth of Forth have all dried up making importing and exporting from Scotland impossible other than by the A1, A7, A68 and M74 I shall keep an eye out for rivers that were once navigable and have suddenly lost that quality as I drive south later on this week...


Watch for every possible barrier to be installed by the establishment to hinder if not punish the Scots for having the temerity to challenge Westminster.
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:51 - Dec 15 with 412 viewsThe_Last_Baron

Scotland won't break away from the UK.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 14:06 - Dec 15 with 406 viewstractordownsouth

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 12:10 - Dec 15 by Trequartista

They have a majority in Westminster, Brexit is within that scope. The SNP only have a majority in Holyrood.


I don't want them to become independent but isn't Westwinster blocking their chance of a referendum the equivalent of the EU telling us we couldn't have an EU referendum?

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 14:38 - Dec 15 with 390 viewsJ2BLUE

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 14:06 - Dec 15 by tractordownsouth

I don't want them to become independent but isn't Westwinster blocking their chance of a referendum the equivalent of the EU telling us we couldn't have an EU referendum?


Yes. Denying them another referendum is just not on. I believe they have a clear mandate for another referendum now.

As for people suggesting the English, Welsh and Northern Irish should also vote, I assume you'd have been happy with the EU referendum being held across all 28 countries and the likes of Polish, Estonian, French and Italian voters keeping us in?

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 14:41 - Dec 15 with 380 viewshampstead_blue

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 09:46 - Dec 15 by Griller

A flippant comment perhaps but I actually think you are spot on. Born and bred in East Anglia I have lived in Scotland for over twenty years and I know the Scottish psyche well. Their hearts rule their heads completely over independence and they completely ignore the potential long-term implications. I personally believe that no one minority sector of Great Britain should ever be empowered to break up the Union - if there is ever to be a referendum on Scottish independence then it should additionally involve England, Northern Ireland and Wales.


As someone on the ground, do the scots feel they have the economic strength and base to become successfully independent?

I'm not sure what their USP and big income earners are? Long term, regular, and sufficient to run a country.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:36 - Dec 15 with 369 viewsTrequartista

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 14:06 - Dec 15 by tractordownsouth

I don't want them to become independent but isn't Westwinster blocking their chance of a referendum the equivalent of the EU telling us we couldn't have an EU referendum?


No, the EU isn't a state (yet), and the articles are in place to allow countries to leave. I'm not against self-determination of peoples, I just don't think you can have continuous referendums until one day you get the answer you want and then you never come back.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:41 - Dec 15 with 364 viewsbluejacko

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:07 - Dec 15 by WeWereZombies

As is often said you learn things all the time on the TWTD forum. Now that I know that the Clyde, the Moray Firth and the Firth of Forth have all dried up making importing and exporting from Scotland impossible other than by the A1, A7, A68 and M74 I shall keep an eye out for rivers that were once navigable and have suddenly lost that quality as I drive south later on this week...


Just an update for you Zombie old chap there are only 3 sailings per WEEK each way between Rosyth and Zeebrugge operated by Freightlink! Gonna take a lot of traffic off our roads ain’t it? They are the only direct sailings between Scotland and Europe.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 15:43]
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:54 - Dec 15 with 362 viewstractordownsouth

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:36 - Dec 15 by Trequartista

No, the EU isn't a state (yet), and the articles are in place to allow countries to leave. I'm not against self-determination of peoples, I just don't think you can have continuous referendums until one day you get the answer you want and then you never come back.


Yeah but by ruling out future referendums it isn't democratic as it means that the winners don't have to be accountable for their actions.

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 16:50 - Dec 15 with 341 viewsTrequartista

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:54 - Dec 15 by tractordownsouth

Yeah but by ruling out future referendums it isn't democratic as it means that the winners don't have to be accountable for their actions.


I wouldn't rule out future referendums, i just would have them maybe every 20-25 years, not every 6

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 17:09 - Dec 15 with 329 viewsGaryCooper

Perhaps if the UK makes a success out of being independent the Scots will not want to leave? Yeah I know!
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 17:50 - Dec 15 with 323 viewsWeWereZombies

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 13:31 - Dec 15 by bluejacko

Oh dear that’s a bit nasty, of course ferries will be able to cope with some of the traffic but the majority will still have to come through the UK and of course as we are their biggest market it will still have to come south won’t it?


Admittedly there is room for growth but Scotland's ports are not dormant:

http://marine.gov.scot/information/scottish-ports-and-harbours

https://www.britishports.org.uk/about-us/the-uk-ports-industry

Not sure why you think a humorous comment is nasty, there are far harsher ways of pointing out that someone is wrong. At the moment 64% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom but should the worst happen and independence arise then the trading relationship is likely to deteriorate too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

If you really want to spook yourself have a look at the type of sea area an independent Scotland might command (although the last referendum had no intent of dividing up the United Kingdom's military):

http://marine.gov.scot/information/scottish-assessment-areas-scottish-marine-reg
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 18:00]

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:11 - Dec 15 with 308 viewsWeWereZombies

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 15:41 - Dec 15 by bluejacko

Just an update for you Zombie old chap there are only 3 sailings per WEEK each way between Rosyth and Zeebrugge operated by Freightlink! Gonna take a lot of traffic off our roads ain’t it? They are the only direct sailings between Scotland and Europe.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 15:43]


Up to 210,000 barrels of crude oil a day are processed at Grangemouth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grangemouth_Refinery

That is around a fifth of the United Kingdom's usage piped to tankers offshore from the Forth. There are concerns that production could be lost to the new INEOS plant in Antwerp following Brexit (despite founder Jim Ratcliffe being a supporter of leaving Europe - like Rees-Mogg he seems to have a commercial appetite for also remaining to the exclusion of the rest of us - at least Dyson has gone the whole hog and up sticks to Asia). Issues like this could amplify popular support for independence if it is seen as a way to win back jobs.

Poll: Serious point, wash your hands - anything else you should wash at the urinals?

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:31 - Dec 15 with 297 viewsbluejacko

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/expert-outlines-potential-form-of-an-independent
Above is a link which indeed says that the Scots want their own military.
There are numerous articles on this subject that outlays the difficulties that they would encounter.
The ports might well not be dormant but the fact remains there is very little actual freight traffic either way.
By freight I mean RO/RO ferries,most ports specialise in one way to load unload ships,in this area we have Felixstowe which does containers,Harwich is the main RO/RO port and Ipswich is the main bulk handling port which I suspect most of Scotland’s ports are.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 18:52]
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:42 - Dec 15 with 284 viewsWeWereZombies

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:31 - Dec 15 by bluejacko

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/expert-outlines-potential-form-of-an-independent
Above is a link which indeed says that the Scots want their own military.
There are numerous articles on this subject that outlays the difficulties that they would encounter.
The ports might well not be dormant but the fact remains there is very little actual freight traffic either way.
By freight I mean RO/RO ferries,most ports specialise in one way to load unload ships,in this area we have Felixstowe which does containers,Harwich is the main RO/RO port and Ipswich is the main bulk handling port which I suspect most of Scotland’s ports are.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 18:52]


But the last referendum was on the basis that the armed forces would not be split (and the Crown - currently The Queen - would remain as the sovereign). Some Scots may want their own military but I suspect they are few in number, my expectation would be that any future independence referendum would include these two points as well as further ones to curry support for the proposal. An agreement on retaining sterling and having no separation of the Treasury would qualm a lot of fears in Scotland and in Westminster too. But why go down the polarising adversarial route of separate development then, accelerating devolution would be a much better solution (and could provide a blueprint for the correction of regional disadvantages in other parts of the United Kingdom too).

Poll: Serious point, wash your hands - anything else you should wash at the urinals?

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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:58 - Dec 15 with 272 viewsbluejacko

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:42 - Dec 15 by WeWereZombies

But the last referendum was on the basis that the armed forces would not be split (and the Crown - currently The Queen - would remain as the sovereign). Some Scots may want their own military but I suspect they are few in number, my expectation would be that any future independence referendum would include these two points as well as further ones to curry support for the proposal. An agreement on retaining sterling and having no separation of the Treasury would qualm a lot of fears in Scotland and in Westminster too. But why go down the polarising adversarial route of separate development then, accelerating devolution would be a much better solution (and could provide a blueprint for the correction of regional disadvantages in other parts of the United Kingdom too).


With Scotland leaving the union they will be leaving NATO so they cannot remain part of the UK military. Also what country would cede control of their forces to another? If we had to deploy does that mean that we kranky could veto that. You can’t have one part deployable and one not!
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Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 21:08 - Dec 15 with 239 viewsWeWereZombies

Should SNP get their way and go independent...... on 18:58 - Dec 15 by bluejacko

With Scotland leaving the union they will be leaving NATO so they cannot remain part of the UK military. Also what country would cede control of their forces to another? If we had to deploy does that mean that we kranky could veto that. You can’t have one part deployable and one not!


And yet to remain part of the United Kingdom's armed forces was what Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron agreed to when Parliament allowed the 2014 referendum. Funny old World.

I cannot recall anyone talking about Scotland leaving NATO back then though.

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