| Hmmm that's weird 09:56 - Dec 19 with 2771 views | chicoazul |
Lots of you have told me that if we legalise some/all drugs then things will be pretty much fine as it will be decriminalised taxed and "made safe". No more violence or drug gangs.
So this story from Holland, specifically Amsterdam, can't possibly be right.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50821542
[Post edited 19 Dec 2019 9:56]
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:01 - Dec 19 with 2012 views | jeera |
Must admit I tend to agree somewhat, not that I'm an expert by any stretch.
""It's not canals, the Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh. It's the housing estates. They don't have the same opportunities. They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld."
That's the issue isn't it, world over. Inequality and lack of clear direction.
Root causes of crime need to be addressed and it starts with an element of state responsibility to its people; opportunity: education, proper housing, jobs... |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:02 - Dec 19 with 2012 views | Swansea_Blue |
Don't do drugs kids.
We've a huge issue down here with county lines stuff, and some of the stories from recovering addicts are horrendous. You'd be surprised how many who start with an occasional line of coke after work end up living a nightmare. |  |
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| I'll bite on 10:07 - Dec 19 with 1989 views | Dyland |
Actually, no I won't. You're either a naughty troll Chickers, or really quite thick. |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:09 - Dec 19 with 1979 views | chicoazul |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:01 - Dec 19 by jeera |
Must admit I tend to agree somewhat, not that I'm an expert by any stretch.
""It's not canals, the Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh. It's the housing estates. They don't have the same opportunities. They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld."
That's the issue isn't it, world over. Inequality and lack of clear direction.
Root causes of crime need to be addressed and it starts with an element of state responsibility to its people; opportunity: education, proper housing, jobs... |
On the one hand I agree. On the other hand, anyone buying drugs for their weekend at Newmarket or because they need to chill after a hard day's work, is complicit. And finally I think this is a wake-up call for legalisers, the article does not describe a one-off but a modern civilised capital city slowly descending over years into chaos and carnage. | |
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| I'll bite on 10:09 - Dec 19 with 1978 views | chicoazul |
| I'll bite on 10:07 - Dec 19 by Dyland |
Actually, no I won't. You're either a naughty troll Chickers, or really quite thick. |
I'm not trolling, so I need you to tell me why I am so thick. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:11 - Dec 19 with 1971 views | Lord_Lucan |
One opinion poll suggested 59% of people believed the Netherlands was now a narco-state, in other words a country whose economy is dependent on the trade in illegal drugs.
Note the term illegal.
Personally I'm in two minds about it. I don't think there is a successful answer either way. |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:12 - Dec 19 with 1964 views | JakeITFC |
The crime is centred around the manufacture and distribution of illegal drugs.
What part of that do you struggle with? |  | | |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:13 - Dec 19 with 1958 views | chicoazul |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:11 - Dec 19 by Lord_Lucan |
One opinion poll suggested 59% of people believed the Netherlands was now a narco-state, in other words a country whose economy is dependent on the trade in illegal drugs.
Note the term illegal.
Personally I'm in two minds about it. I don't think there is a successful answer either way. |
The article explains that due to very relaxed drug laws (and in some case legalisation), Amsterdam is attracting *ever more* illegal drugs and all the violence and criminality that follows. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:13 - Dec 19 with 1954 views | footers |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:11 - Dec 19 by Lord_Lucan |
One opinion poll suggested 59% of people believed the Netherlands was now a narco-state, in other words a country whose economy is dependent on the trade in illegal drugs.
Note the term illegal.
Personally I'm in two minds about it. I don't think there is a successful answer either way. |
I'm in several dozen minds about it. But tbf, that was my fifth tab of the morning. [Post edited 19 Dec 2019 10:16]
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:15 - Dec 19 with 1951 views | chicoazul |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:12 - Dec 19 by JakeITFC |
The crime is centred around the manufacture and distribution of illegal drugs.
What part of that do you struggle with? |
So if they were legal, we wouldn't see any drug-related crime? So in other words the drug laws in Holland are not relaxed enough and *everything* should be made legal? Is that your position? | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:19 - Dec 19 with 1926 views | haynes_toe1 |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:09 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
On the one hand I agree. On the other hand, anyone buying drugs for their weekend at Newmarket or because they need to chill after a hard day's work, is complicit. And finally I think this is a wake-up call for legalisers, the article does not describe a one-off but a modern civilised capital city slowly descending over years into chaos and carnage. |
Agree with this. |  | | |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:19 - Dec 19 with 1927 views | JakeITFC |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:15 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
So if they were legal, we wouldn't see any drug-related crime? So in other words the drug laws in Holland are not relaxed enough and *everything* should be made legal? Is that your position? |
Gangs and crime would still exist, but if you decriminalise and regulate their biggest revenue stream then you’d think that would have an impact.
Having big pharmaceutical companies (who are scum for other reasons, but not really the argument here) controlling the manufacture and distribution of drugs removes most of the crime here surely? | | | |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:20 - Dec 19 with 1927 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:15 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
So if they were legal, we wouldn't see any drug-related crime? So in other words the drug laws in Holland are not relaxed enough and *everything* should be made legal? Is that your position? |
I don't want to speak for Jake but I think it is one position that certainly needs looking at.
It would definitely stop a lot of gang crime - unless ultimately Neno or J Block and the like beat the price offered from Boots the Chemist.
As to whether it would lead to an increase of crime due to an increase of addicts is of course the flip of the argument that also needs looking at.
In short, there isn't an answer. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:23 - Dec 19 with 1915 views | chicoazul |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:19 - Dec 19 by JakeITFC |
Gangs and crime would still exist, but if you decriminalise and regulate their biggest revenue stream then you’d think that would have an impact.
Having big pharmaceutical companies (who are scum for other reasons, but not really the argument here) controlling the manufacture and distribution of drugs removes most of the crime here surely? |
Firstly you make a very good point about big pharma. If pushed I would rather drugs stay in the hands of criminals than them and their huge advertising budgets, R&D departments etc
Why would you think that though on your initial point? Here is evidence from Holland one of the most liberal countries in the world of violence and death *despite having incredibly liberal drug laws*. So in other words everything would need to be made legal. That in turn will create a black market of its' own run by criminals because, hey, have you run out of your state-mandated amount of cocaine use this month? Buy some from us, it's a bit cheaper and may be cut with Persil but still! | |
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| I'll bite on 10:23 - Dec 19 with 1914 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'll bite on 10:09 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
I'm not trolling, so I need you to tell me why I am so thick. |
People have told you several times but you don't listen. There's literally no point anyone wasting their time on this thread, it's best to just leave you in your ignorance. |  |
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| I'll bite on 10:29 - Dec 19 with 1886 views | chicoazul |
| I'll bite on 10:23 - Dec 19 by BrixtonBlue |
People have told you several times but you don't listen. There's literally no point anyone wasting their time on this thread, it's best to just leave you in your ignorance. |
That wouldn't be fair though considering so many people so many times patiently explained to you why you were wrong about the country's politics. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:32 - Dec 19 with 1876 views | chicoazul |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:20 - Dec 19 by Lord_Lucan |
I don't want to speak for Jake but I think it is one position that certainly needs looking at.
It would definitely stop a lot of gang crime - unless ultimately Neno or J Block and the like beat the price offered from Boots the Chemist.
As to whether it would lead to an increase of crime due to an increase of addicts is of course the flip of the argument that also needs looking at.
In short, there isn't an answer. |
As I said, unless it is a total free for all and you me and our kids and grandparents and every other vulnerable person in society can buy as much of what they want whenever they want, there will be a black market that will be run by gangsters. Yes it may be much smaller than it is at the moment although the evidence from Canada wouldnt bear that out ( https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-weed-black-market-boom-despite-legalizati
My answer is to leave drug laws as they are and have them properly policed & enforced unlike now. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 10:34 - Dec 19 with 1869 views | DanTheMan |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:15 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
So if they were legal, we wouldn't see any drug-related crime? So in other words the drug laws in Holland are not relaxed enough and *everything* should be made legal? Is that your position? |
We'd see some, but less.
For a real life example, there is the American Prohibition. Gangs turned to illegally making alcohol which I can't imagine many do now.
I guess the same is also true of illegal manufacturing of cigarettes. Probably still a few about but nothing like the proper drug trade. |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 11:28 - Dec 19 with 1776 views | eireblue |
| Hmmm that's weird on 10:15 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
So if they were legal, we wouldn't see any drug-related crime? So in other words the drug laws in Holland are not relaxed enough and *everything* should be made legal? Is that your position? |
What you have misunderstood in arguments that people have made, is the difference in making it legal to take a drug, and criminalising the entire supply chain.
The story is clearly about global drug gangs moving product through the Netherlands.
"There are clans from all over the world, because the Netherlands is one of the most important transit ports. They know whoever controls the Netherlands has one of the arteries of the global drug market," he told the Volkskrant newspaper.
It is criminalising the entire supply chain that is the issue.
You seem to have misunderstood what some people meant by de-criminalise the supply chain. |  | | |
| I'll bite on 12:01 - Dec 19 with 1722 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'll bite on 10:29 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
That wouldn't be fair though considering so many people so many times patiently explained to you why you were wrong about the country's politics. |
I wasn't wrong, I just had a different opinion to the rest of the country. | |
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| I'll bite on 12:31 - Dec 19 with 1680 views | Dyland |
| I'll bite on 10:09 - Dec 19 by chicoazul |
I'm not trolling, so I need you to tell me why I am so thick. |
Did you even read the story? It centres on smuggling routes and a criminal who went from moving cannabis to cocaine. There are two things here that seem so obvious that it makes your OP silly. Firstly, the sale of cocaine isn't legal in the Netherlands, which kind of ruins the swivel eyed point you keep trying to make on this topic. Secondly, this drug war is for control of smuggling supply chains, not specifically for the black market in the Netherlands.
I don't really think you're thick luv, just very bad at using relevant evidence to back up your position on drug use, and very prone to using straw man arguments.
As others have said here, there is no simple answer to this, and it's not as black and white as you seem to make out. I get you're just starting/continuing the debate, which is of course fine. | |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 12:37 - Dec 19 with 1640 views | Coastalblue |
I'm not too up on this, the only drug I imbibe is alcohol, but my partner works with people from the Gangs units in Central London quite regularly, we socialise with some of them.
Almost all those we know are in favour of legalisation, I trust their opinions as they have far better knowledge and experience than I do. |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 13:34 - Dec 19 with 1556 views | noggin |
How many different drugs are sold legally in Holland? |  |
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| Hmmm that's weird on 13:58 - Dec 19 with 1534 views | Pendejo |
I won't claim to be an expert, but I will lay out some credentials;-
Used to be seconded to a money laundering & fraud investigations when working in insurance
Have lived and worked in another Narcostate - Colombia - which I still visit frequently
The international trade in illegal drugs is arguable THE biggest industry in the world and most successful over a 50+ year period... Coca Cola's annual sales much smaller.
The products have changed, maybe evolved over the years but the the consistent factors are;-
Demand
Supply
Demand is not fueled by addicts, it is fueled by the sheer number of recreational casual users
Supply is driven by demand and the profitability of the products
Take out the profit, and you'd take out the incentive to do business. Legalise the product and not only will the street value fall dramatically, but tax revenue would be earned on sales.
HOWEVER
The tax revenue of the product if legalised is nothing compared to the tax revenue on the laundered profits.
At present the profits need to be laundered, and these profits are at such a scale that it is entirely possible that many countries' GDP is partially reliant on taxation of the laundered money.
How much of the property boom in the UK has been fueled by laundered money?
I don't know but there are many properties in London that are owned by investment companies but left empty who have no intention of renting them out [allegedly more than enough to solve London's homeless crisis].
I have known more than one addict in my life; gambling, alcohol, drugs and a combination of the three. Whether its legal or illegal they've got to get their fix.
By legalising they can be regulated.
If everyone just said "no" there'd be no industry... as someone who has a few drinks every now and again I have no desire to take drugs [not even the ones I'm prescribed!] so don't care about this product, but the industry, and whom it is controlled by undermines our very existence by subverting law & order.
If you haven't seen it watch "Narcos" whilst this is a dramatized version of events it is not far off a good representation of how the rule of law was subverted i.e. when the Police turn up to stop searches or are responsible for tip offs right up to and including how a presidency was bought. |  |
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| Hmmm that's very timely on 15:35 - Dec 19 with 1455 views | Pendejo |
| Hmmm that's weird on 13:58 - Dec 19 by Pendejo |
I won't claim to be an expert, but I will lay out some credentials;-
Used to be seconded to a money laundering & fraud investigations when working in insurance
Have lived and worked in another Narcostate - Colombia - which I still visit frequently
The international trade in illegal drugs is arguable THE biggest industry in the world and most successful over a 50+ year period... Coca Cola's annual sales much smaller.
The products have changed, maybe evolved over the years but the the consistent factors are;-
Demand
Supply
Demand is not fueled by addicts, it is fueled by the sheer number of recreational casual users
Supply is driven by demand and the profitability of the products
Take out the profit, and you'd take out the incentive to do business. Legalise the product and not only will the street value fall dramatically, but tax revenue would be earned on sales.
HOWEVER
The tax revenue of the product if legalised is nothing compared to the tax revenue on the laundered profits.
At present the profits need to be laundered, and these profits are at such a scale that it is entirely possible that many countries' GDP is partially reliant on taxation of the laundered money.
How much of the property boom in the UK has been fueled by laundered money?
I don't know but there are many properties in London that are owned by investment companies but left empty who have no intention of renting them out [allegedly more than enough to solve London's homeless crisis].
I have known more than one addict in my life; gambling, alcohol, drugs and a combination of the three. Whether its legal or illegal they've got to get their fix.
By legalising they can be regulated.
If everyone just said "no" there'd be no industry... as someone who has a few drinks every now and again I have no desire to take drugs [not even the ones I'm prescribed!] so don't care about this product, but the industry, and whom it is controlled by undermines our very existence by subverting law & order.
If you haven't seen it watch "Narcos" whilst this is a dramatized version of events it is not far off a good representation of how the rule of law was subverted i.e. when the Police turn up to stop searches or are responsible for tip offs right up to and including how a presidency was bought. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-50849167
15:17
Suspected millions hidden in homes to be exposed
Dominic Casciani
Home Affairs Correspondent
Buried in the Queen's Speech is a potentially revolutionary measure to reveal dirty money in the British property market.
Billions of pounds' worth of property is owned by opaque companies based in the British Virgin Islands and other less-than-transparent states. Crooks, bent politicians and families of dictators use these companies to buy trophy homes - meaning they can launder the cash they stole at home.
The government has now pledged to force these mysterious shell companies to disclose who really controls them and benefits from the property.
Transparency International UK says if the draft legislation becomes a reality, it would close a loophole exploited by criminals and the corrupt.
The legislation is ready and has cross-party support - but it never made it into law under Theresa May. The new commitment means its fate is a question of whether it can get Parliamentary time. | |
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