| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? 20:09 - Dec 19 with 1934 views | Trequartista |
https://news.sky.com/story/clive-lewis-joins-emily-thornberry-in-labour-leadersh
"When trying to persuade them of our radicalism and sincerity, we often had the legacy of the 2000's thrown back in our faces.
Persuading voters that we understand the sources of their long-held resentment and frustration, of their disappointment in how Labour has conducted itself since the 1990s, will be the first step towards winning back their trust."
He thinks Labour are losing elections because people remember how they were when they were winning elections? Head totally in the sand.
[Post edited 19 Dec 2019 20:12]
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 20:24 - Dec 19 with 1862 views | itfcjoe |
It’s ridiculous |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 20:27 - Dec 19 with 1861 views | StokieBlue |
They are highlighting the issues that arise from existing in an echo chamber.
He's far from the only member of Labour to perform some mental gymnastics around the election result.
All pretty depressing when we need an opposition to try and at least keep the Tories answering questions.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 20:37 - Dec 19 with 1825 views | GlasgowBlue |
Playing to the gallery. He knows that the Corbynistas make up the majority of the membership so trashing Blair is a must if he wants any chance of winning their vote.
They literally hate Blair more than they hate the Tories. |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 20:38 - Dec 19 with 1824 views | m14_blue |
Incredible |  | | |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 21:56 - Dec 19 with 1733 views | LankHenners |
Pretty clearly not what he’s saying. And if you’ve listened/watched anything he’s said post-election he knows it’s more than 1 issue that toppled Labour.
He also knows to stand any chance of getting elected as leader he has to appeal to the harder left people which currently make up a good chunk of the membership. He won’t have much of a problem with that anyway but going after New Labour will certainly win him some support.
I’m any case he’s probably not far wrong - there’ll be plenty of people in the middle ground who disliked Corbyn but got fed up with New Labour that need to be reached out to. |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:35 - Dec 19 with 1675 views | Clapham_Junction |
I don't see what's wrong with what he said. New Labour was undoubtedly a transformation of the party away from its working class base. It tried to appeal more to the middle classes and failed to reverse several of the policies that did so much damage under the preceding government.
From the Economist:
"The party’s bet on the rise of the middle class allowed it to win three elections in a row. But there were plenty of warning signs. The traditional working class abandoned politics for private pursuits. Party membership plateaued. Turn-out went down sharply. In the 1970s and 1980s close to 80% of the population would turn out to vote. From 2000 to the Brexit referendum in 2016 turn-out averaged 63%. New Labour was a party about which they knew little and cared less." |  | | |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:59 - Dec 19 with 1636 views | StokieBlue |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:35 - Dec 19 by Clapham_Junction |
I don't see what's wrong with what he said. New Labour was undoubtedly a transformation of the party away from its working class base. It tried to appeal more to the middle classes and failed to reverse several of the policies that did so much damage under the preceding government.
From the Economist:
"The party’s bet on the rise of the middle class allowed it to win three elections in a row. But there were plenty of warning signs. The traditional working class abandoned politics for private pursuits. Party membership plateaued. Turn-out went down sharply. In the 1970s and 1980s close to 80% of the population would turn out to vote. From 2000 to the Brexit referendum in 2016 turn-out averaged 63%. New Labour was a party about which they knew little and cared less." |
I don't think I've seen a single person say they didn't vote Labour because of what happened in the 1990's.
It's not the cause of what has happened this election. That article may well be valid up until where it stops in 2016 - it looks less valid now 3 years later. The current Labour party isn't New Labour in any way but they lost far, far worse.
Blaming New Labour seems just a tad delusional.
SB [Post edited 19 Dec 2019 23:05]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 23:13 - Dec 19 with 1611 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:59 - Dec 19 by StokieBlue |
I don't think I've seen a single person say they didn't vote Labour because of what happened in the 1990's.
It's not the cause of what has happened this election. That article may well be valid up until where it stops in 2016 - it looks less valid now 3 years later. The current Labour party isn't New Labour in any way but they lost far, far worse.
Blaming New Labour seems just a tad delusional.
SB [Post edited 19 Dec 2019 23:05]
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I recommend a sabbatical to the North. |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 02:33 - Dec 20 with 1508 views | pointofblue |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 23:13 - Dec 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I recommend a sabbatical to the North. |
Where New Labour retained seats and Corbyn’s Labour lost them a week ago? | |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 03:22 - Dec 20 with 1493 views | jeera |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 02:33 - Dec 20 by pointofblue |
Where New Labour retained seats and Corbyn’s Labour lost them a week ago? |
I think the point he was making is that you will find people who still associate the party with its previous guise.
I have to say as it goes, that I've also encountered several, if not many, people repeatedly stating that they're not voting Labour because of this/that list of things that Labour have supposedly down in the past.
That those lists are more often than not either, made-up or just inaccurate, seems to have been of little consequence.
Also that New Labour were an altogether different monster...like them or not; and not alike at all to the point it may be useful for everyone who has Blair-like tendencies and those who have the farther left views to Corbyn's to maybe stop trying to culminate together and to do what's right, go with their own values and separate completely.
At least then people might have a clearer idea of what it is they''re supposed to be voting for. [Post edited 20 Dec 2019 3:23]
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 09:39 - Dec 20 with 1321 views | No9 |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:59 - Dec 19 by StokieBlue |
I don't think I've seen a single person say they didn't vote Labour because of what happened in the 1990's.
It's not the cause of what has happened this election. That article may well be valid up until where it stops in 2016 - it looks less valid now 3 years later. The current Labour party isn't New Labour in any way but they lost far, far worse.
Blaming New Labour seems just a tad delusional.
SB [Post edited 19 Dec 2019 23:05]
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"Blaming New Labour seems just a tad delusional."
Is it really when one recalsl that Tony Blair abandoned his UK policy in favour of a more international role?
The problems created for the British people were not resolved and many new ones created when the media turned against him.
Now anyone who wants to be leader of any party, other than the tories, to suffer the abuse and charachter assassination they are going to have to endure, must be a screw loose.
At leat Blair understood to get anywhere he had to brown-nose Murdoch & the UK is NOT a better place for it | | | |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 09:43 - Dec 20 with 1310 views | StokieBlue |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 09:39 - Dec 20 by No9 |
"Blaming New Labour seems just a tad delusional."
Is it really when one recalsl that Tony Blair abandoned his UK policy in favour of a more international role?
The problems created for the British people were not resolved and many new ones created when the media turned against him.
Now anyone who wants to be leader of any party, other than the tories, to suffer the abuse and charachter assassination they are going to have to endure, must be a screw loose.
At leat Blair understood to get anywhere he had to brown-nose Murdoch & the UK is NOT a better place for it |
Yes, it's totally delusional and entirely agenda driven.
Anyone watching the coverage on election night and all the comments from MPs since who lost their seat can see this wasn't the issue. It never came up once as a reason why people didn't vote Labour. It's a narrative from pre-JC which now convenient to use as it means they don't need to actually analyse and address what happened.
Labour are in danger of rationalising the defeat and not learning anything from it.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 10:02 - Dec 20 with 1290 views | Guthrum |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 03:22 - Dec 20 by jeera |
I think the point he was making is that you will find people who still associate the party with its previous guise.
I have to say as it goes, that I've also encountered several, if not many, people repeatedly stating that they're not voting Labour because of this/that list of things that Labour have supposedly down in the past.
That those lists are more often than not either, made-up or just inaccurate, seems to have been of little consequence.
Also that New Labour were an altogether different monster...like them or not; and not alike at all to the point it may be useful for everyone who has Blair-like tendencies and those who have the farther left views to Corbyn's to maybe stop trying to culminate together and to do what's right, go with their own values and separate completely.
At least then people might have a clearer idea of what it is they''re supposed to be voting for. [Post edited 20 Dec 2019 3:23]
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Problem is that, under the current system and with the ingrained unwillingness to form coalitions*, unless the Conservatives (equally a combine of disparate elements) do likewise, then that merely consigns the country to one-party rule.
* "We want our leader to become PM!" "No - we want anybody but your leader to be PM!" etc., etc. |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 14:50 - Dec 20 with 1183 views | BlueBadger |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 22:35 - Dec 19 by Clapham_Junction |
I don't see what's wrong with what he said. New Labour was undoubtedly a transformation of the party away from its working class base. It tried to appeal more to the middle classes and failed to reverse several of the policies that did so much damage under the preceding government.
From the Economist:
"The party’s bet on the rise of the middle class allowed it to win three elections in a row. But there were plenty of warning signs. The traditional working class abandoned politics for private pursuits. Party membership plateaued. Turn-out went down sharply. In the 1970s and 1980s close to 80% of the population would turn out to vote. From 2000 to the Brexit referendum in 2016 turn-out averaged 63%. New Labour was a party about which they knew little and cared less." |
I suspect I'm going to get a lot of mileage out of this in t he bext few weeks.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1207071942601248772.html?fbclid=IwAR1uSdAAykS |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 15:43 - Dec 20 with 1139 views | Darth_Koont |
"Better than the Tories either side of them" isn't in doubt. Not doing enough in their 13 years to address structural issues in the economy, and to halt and reverse growing divisions between the regions and people, is a fair enough point to make. Especially when they were surfing global growth during that time.
You'll never have an argument with me that the centre is better than the right. But it ultimately props up and strengthens the status quo when it's seen as the alternative. The progressive alternative and arguably the evolutionary alternative is much more social democratic, less neoliberal and less imperialistic than the sort of Labour Murdoch could accept. |  |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 16:02 - Dec 20 with 1099 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 02:33 - Dec 20 by pointofblue |
Where New Labour retained seats and Corbyn’s Labour lost them a week ago? |
While turn out fell and disillusionment took hold while New Labour courted southern luvvies! | |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 16:05 - Dec 20 with 1088 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 09:43 - Dec 20 by StokieBlue |
Yes, it's totally delusional and entirely agenda driven.
Anyone watching the coverage on election night and all the comments from MPs since who lost their seat can see this wasn't the issue. It never came up once as a reason why people didn't vote Labour. It's a narrative from pre-JC which now convenient to use as it means they don't need to actually analyse and address what happened.
Labour are in danger of rationalising the defeat and not learning anything from it.
SB |
Or this is the latest part of a continuum with Brexit Nationalism thrown in. | |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 16:16 - Dec 20 with 1067 views | StokieBlue |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 16:05 - Dec 20 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Or this is the latest part of a continuum with Brexit Nationalism thrown in. |
Merry Xmas DBS.
I don't understand your point I'm afraid - want to flesh it out a bit more?
I fear this is just proving my final line.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 19:19 - Dec 20 with 981 views | Clapham_Junction |
Yes, I've seen that thread. No-one with any credibility can deny that they did good things in office and New Labour are indisputably preferable to a Conservative government.
The issue that I have is that they failed to address some key structural issues with long term ramifications — such as building more social housing and failing to end right-to-buy. The way they went about some of the spending and managing the public sector also created a lot of unnecessary additional costs further down the line — e.g. PFI and continued promotion of outsourcing and privatisation — that are still creating problems today.
The UK needs a fundamental reset in many areas of the public sector and economy to deal with people's frustrations and another iteration of New Labour would not deliver that. With hindsight, the Blair years were a huge missed opportunity as they had the majority to be able to do it, and I don't think the reforms would have really been that controversial in many areas.
It's similar to Macron in France at the moment. Indisputably preferable to Marie le Pen, but completely failing to address most of the issues and anger that caused people to turn to the FN in the first place — my worry is that this will lead to a bigger chance that the FN will succeed further down the line. | | | |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 19:45 - Dec 20 with 952 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is Clive Lewis totally deluded? on 16:16 - Dec 20 by StokieBlue |
Merry Xmas DBS.
I don't understand your point I'm afraid - want to flesh it out a bit more?
I fear this is just proving my final line.
SB |
Likewise Stokie...
Clapham has pretty much said it below.....the route from Thatcherism to today goes through New Labour...no meaningful structural changes have occurred for Northern working class families...many have become so disillusioned that the promise of post Brexit uplands is the final throw of the dice.
This is not to deny Corbyn's failings...but Brexit and the history of memory also plays a significant part....
Edit...that so many seats were won because former Labour voters went to the Brexit party shows the depth of disillusionment...the Nationalist tendency at times of despair is mind boggling to me. [Post edited 20 Dec 2019 19:51]
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