| This really needs to be stopped 09:36 - Jan 7 with 1879 views | StokieBlue |
The government need to make legislation to stop these types of places opening and operating:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51006333
The Autism Regenerative Centre, in London, however, is currently offering stem-cell treatments for autism for children over the age of two.
Bone marrow cells are taken from the child under general anaesthetic and re-injected into a vein or their spinal canal, according to its website.
Up to three treatments, each costing £9,500, may be prescribed.
Apparently re-injecting the stem cells into the spinal cord "resets" the brain. That is both nonsense and insulting to the kids being treated.
So they perform a process on young children, under general anaesthetic, for which there is absolutely no evidence it works and they charge the parents up to 30,000 GBP.
This is simply preying on the uninformed and really shouldn't be happening in this day and age.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 with 1834 views | hampstead_blue |
Oh dear.
I smell the sound of snake oil salesmen stripping cash from desperate parents. Shocking.
(I'd also add single religion schools that the list, but that's another thread.) |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 with 1840 views | ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 09:47 - Jan 7 with 1829 views | DanTheMan |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |
You want to try and apply the placebo effect to autism!? |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 09:52 - Jan 7 with 1811 views | hampstead_blue |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:47 - Jan 7 by DanTheMan |
You want to try and apply the placebo effect to autism!? |
My thoughts exactly.
I think that the placebo effect will be for the parents. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| This really needs to be stopped on 09:56 - Jan 7 with 1808 views | StokieBlue |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |
What a load of nonsense. The point of the placebo effect is that it works with a non-harmful sugar pill, not a potentially harmful process. I'd also argue that a 2 year old child can't be informed enough to believe the process would help - it doesn't matter if the parents believe it will help. It's also really not applicable to autism in any way.
Just putting a young child under general anesthetic is not a decision to be taken lightly - it's totally pointless for something which doesn't work.
The NHS shouldn't be providing treatments which don't work and are potentially harmful.
Overall, a horrible, horrible post.
SB [Post edited 7 Jan 2020 9:57]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Oh dear, even for you (n/t) on 09:59 - Jan 7 with 1796 views | Dyland |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:11 - Jan 7 with 1771 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:56 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
What a load of nonsense. The point of the placebo effect is that it works with a non-harmful sugar pill, not a potentially harmful process. I'd also argue that a 2 year old child can't be informed enough to believe the process would help - it doesn't matter if the parents believe it will help. It's also really not applicable to autism in any way.
Just putting a young child under general anesthetic is not a decision to be taken lightly - it's totally pointless for something which doesn't work.
The NHS shouldn't be providing treatments which don't work and are potentially harmful.
Overall, a horrible, horrible post.
SB [Post edited 7 Jan 2020 9:57]
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Get back in your pram. You know nothing whatsoever about this and are responding to hysteria. And your attitude is deeply offensive to anybody who has knowledge and experience of a young child with any condition where any treatment may or may not work.
The NHS doesn't provide all sorts of therapy and treatments which may or may not work.... IF people want to try something which may or may not work for their child who are you or I to deny them?
Incidentally the biggest scandal in the UK health system outside of Dementia is probably fertility treatment where clinics think nothing of charging couples tens of thousands of pounds for a round of treatment without informing them that pregnancy can only occur in a few days a month - but again these are desperate people with money to be separated from. | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:19 - Jan 7 with 1746 views | StokieBlue |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:11 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Get back in your pram. You know nothing whatsoever about this and are responding to hysteria. And your attitude is deeply offensive to anybody who has knowledge and experience of a young child with any condition where any treatment may or may not work.
The NHS doesn't provide all sorts of therapy and treatments which may or may not work.... IF people want to try something which may or may not work for their child who are you or I to deny them?
Incidentally the biggest scandal in the UK health system outside of Dementia is probably fertility treatment where clinics think nothing of charging couples tens of thousands of pounds for a round of treatment without informing them that pregnancy can only occur in a few days a month - but again these are desperate people with money to be separated from. |
I disagree - everything in there is correct. You cannot apply the placebo effect via the third person so stop spreading factually incorrect information. The fact that you think autism is some condition which can be "cured" in such a way is also rather worrying.
This specific treatment doesn't work so the rest of your first paragraph is also incorrect. I also fully understand that parents might want to try anything so surely they should be protected from stuff that isn't going to work?
Your second paragraph essentially gives people the right to take advantage of people when they are vulnerable.
Clinics shouldn't do that for fertility either but no idea why you think two wrongs make a right. Adults also have the ability to understand the treatment, the risks and then make their own decision. A two year old child doesn't have that ability thus isn't pretty much irrelevant to this debate.
SB [Post edited 7 Jan 2020 10:21]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:19 - Jan 7 with 1749 views | Guthrum |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |
Pre-War modelling of the NHS is not the issue here, but the huge expense of modern treatments and the tightness of budgets to be spent on them. Combined with the fact everybody loves the NHS but nobody wants to pay (extra taxes) for it.
It is also a problem when people are allowed to present a treatment as effective when it, in fact, is not - and could be harmful. |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:34 - Jan 7 with 1722 views | chicoazul |
Personally I think there should be much much more of this sort of thing. Many people on here are always going on about how stupid everyone else in the UK who thinks differently from them are, more things of this type would thin that herd out on their behalf surely? |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 with 1716 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:19 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
I disagree - everything in there is correct. You cannot apply the placebo effect via the third person so stop spreading factually incorrect information. The fact that you think autism is some condition which can be "cured" in such a way is also rather worrying.
This specific treatment doesn't work so the rest of your first paragraph is also incorrect. I also fully understand that parents might want to try anything so surely they should be protected from stuff that isn't going to work?
Your second paragraph essentially gives people the right to take advantage of people when they are vulnerable.
Clinics shouldn't do that for fertility either but no idea why you think two wrongs make a right. Adults also have the ability to understand the treatment, the risks and then make their own decision. A two year old child doesn't have that ability thus isn't pretty much irrelevant to this debate.
SB [Post edited 7 Jan 2020 10:21]
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You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:43 - Jan 7 with 1700 views | chicoazul |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' |
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
 | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:44 - Jan 7 with 1700 views | StokieBlue |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' |
It's not spurious and wrong.
This argument is spurious and wrong:
" merely that there is a reason to think it might work."
There is no reason to think it might work, experts have said it won't work - why would injecting stem cells into someones back "reset" their brain which is what the clinic was claiming? Why do you keep saying it might work? You've also changed your stance from it might work through placebo (which was ridiculous for a 2 year old child and for autism) to it might just work on it's own merits.
The rest of your post is just nonsense trying to justify the ridiculous position you've gotten yourself into.
SB [Post edited 7 Jan 2020 10:45]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 10:45 - Jan 7 with 1693 views | jeera |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' |
Autism Regenerative Centre indeed. Sounds legit.
A few cases here which tend to go some way for the argument against experimenting with children in search of profit. It looks like exploitation of the worst kind:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-the-unwarranted-hype-of-stem-cell-th
"In 2017, Doris Tyler, a 77-year old former music teacher raised money on GoFundMe to cover stem cell treatment in Georgia (US) to treat age-related macular degeneration (ARMD). “We love you, Doris!” one supporter wrote. Before treatment, she was able to read large-print books and navigate her home. Tyler is now almost blind: “When I wake up in the morning one of the hardest things is opening my eyes and seeing that everything is still dark. And it’s going to be this way until I go to sleep.” At least three other patients with ARMD lost their vision following stem cell treatments in Florida in 2015.
At least 17 patients were hospitalised over the past year in the US after umbilical cord blood injections. The Centers for Disease Control confirmed a series of bacterial infections. Most of these patients were treated at orthopaedic, chiropractor and pain clinics and were given injections into their spines, knees, and shoulders.
Following a stroke in his early 60’s, Jim Glass sought stem cell treatment in Argentina, China, and Mexico (cost: $200,000). A spinal cord tumour subsequently paralysed his right leg (the stroke had already paralysed his left). DNA analysis indicated the tumour arose from the injected stem cells.
A nine-year old boy developed multiple brain and spinal cord tumours following stem cell transplant. Pathological analysis confirmed the spinal tumour contained cells from at least two donors." |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 11:56 - Jan 7 with 1623 views | homer_123 |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:45 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
On one level yes. But on the other IF there is a belief that these things can be effective - and even in clinical trials there is the 'placebo effect' of people getting results with or without the trialled substance.. then IF you had a child who MIGHT benefit and you have the cash...then its fairly cruel not to let them try.... IF its a genuine attempt at therapy.
One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care - even in disease areas in massive numbers eg dementia - let alone nice areas like cystic fibrosis. So you could argue that this sort of thing is a side effect of being saddled with a sacred cow health care system built on a pre-war model. |
"One of the side effects of having an NHS is that it denies people expensive treatments and care..."
Wholly inaccurate - the NHS provide world class pioneering surgery and treatments often when no other organisation will. Just a few examples below - many, many more are available....
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2019/04/nhs-england-to-fund-pioneering-new-brain-surg
https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/paralysed-man-walks-again-after-pioneer
https://www.christie.nhs.uk/about-us/news/latest-news-stories/pioneering-surgery |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 12:00 - Jan 7 with 1602 views | homer_123 |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:19 - Jan 7 by Guthrum |
Pre-War modelling of the NHS is not the issue here, but the huge expense of modern treatments and the tightness of budgets to be spent on them. Combined with the fact everybody loves the NHS but nobody wants to pay (extra taxes) for it.
It is also a problem when people are allowed to present a treatment as effective when it, in fact, is not - and could be harmful. |
Even though the NHS is stretched beyond breaking point - it still provide pioneering, expensive and effective treatments. In many instances treatments that a private health insurance most surely will never cover. | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 12:01 - Jan 7 with 1597 views | LeoMuff |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' |
It’s not “their” child though is it , it’s “a” child and they have the right not to be experimented on by quacks for financial gain, whatever their parents wishes. |  |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 12:01 - Jan 7 with 1596 views | homer_123 |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:45 - Jan 7 by jeera |
Autism Regenerative Centre indeed. Sounds legit.
A few cases here which tend to go some way for the argument against experimenting with children in search of profit. It looks like exploitation of the worst kind:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-the-unwarranted-hype-of-stem-cell-th
"In 2017, Doris Tyler, a 77-year old former music teacher raised money on GoFundMe to cover stem cell treatment in Georgia (US) to treat age-related macular degeneration (ARMD). “We love you, Doris!” one supporter wrote. Before treatment, she was able to read large-print books and navigate her home. Tyler is now almost blind: “When I wake up in the morning one of the hardest things is opening my eyes and seeing that everything is still dark. And it’s going to be this way until I go to sleep.” At least three other patients with ARMD lost their vision following stem cell treatments in Florida in 2015.
At least 17 patients were hospitalised over the past year in the US after umbilical cord blood injections. The Centers for Disease Control confirmed a series of bacterial infections. Most of these patients were treated at orthopaedic, chiropractor and pain clinics and were given injections into their spines, knees, and shoulders.
Following a stroke in his early 60’s, Jim Glass sought stem cell treatment in Argentina, China, and Mexico (cost: $200,000). A spinal cord tumour subsequently paralysed his right leg (the stroke had already paralysed his left). DNA analysis indicated the tumour arose from the injected stem cells.
A nine-year old boy developed multiple brain and spinal cord tumours following stem cell transplant. Pathological analysis confirmed the spinal tumour contained cells from at least two donors." |
But if you can afford it..... | |
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| What a load of tosh on 12:15 - Jan 7 with 1568 views | Dyland |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:35 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
You can disagree all you like - but your argument is spurious and wrong.
I'm not saying that the treatment on offer in the shock horror story is right or wrong... merely that there is a reason to think it might work... and if people want to give it a go then good luck to them - its their money and their child.
Where do you draw the line at vulnerable people being exploited? You could even extrapolate it to the supporters of ITFC being given false hope.
Two wrongs don't make a right by the way - they make two wrongs.... and the scandals quietly going on in the treatment of dementia and fertility are somewhat bigger wrongs than this news 'story' |
Straw men Nerders. Pretty desperate stuff by your usually better standards of debate. | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 12:24 - Jan 7 with 1546 views | CBBlue |
| This really needs to be stopped on 10:11 - Jan 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Get back in your pram. You know nothing whatsoever about this and are responding to hysteria. And your attitude is deeply offensive to anybody who has knowledge and experience of a young child with any condition where any treatment may or may not work.
The NHS doesn't provide all sorts of therapy and treatments which may or may not work.... IF people want to try something which may or may not work for their child who are you or I to deny them?
Incidentally the biggest scandal in the UK health system outside of Dementia is probably fertility treatment where clinics think nothing of charging couples tens of thousands of pounds for a round of treatment without informing them that pregnancy can only occur in a few days a month - but again these are desperate people with money to be separated from. |
If I could down arrow you a million times I would as your post has made me so angry.
You say: "your attitude is deeply offensive to anybody who has knowledge and experience of a young child with any condition where any treatment may or may not work."
NO! As a parent of a child with autism I find YOUR attitude deeply offensive. Autism isn't an illness that can be cured, My child is neurodiverse making fitting into the neurotypical world a bit difficult and he knows he is 'different' but luckily education and society is coming around to the idea that there is nothing 'wrong' with a child with autism and with society making adjustments to accomodate 'different' he can succeed in life. Best I don't get started on your placebo effect comment or how this quackery puts attitudes back decades when so much progess is being made in autism research (research in how they can be helped and understood NOT how it can be cured I may add. | |
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| This really needs to be stopped on 13:45 - Jan 7 with 1484 views | No9 |
The absolutely disgusting side of private medicine and, them knowing the NHS will do what it can to repair the damage. | | | |
| This really needs to be stopped on 09:24 - Jan 9 with 1304 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Wholly accurate I am afraid. No one is denying the NHS can benefit most people most of the time. Simply that it is unsustainable in an uncaring society that values tax cuts and sending immigrants home above sustaining the NHS.
I can't be bothered to point out the many instances of the NHS ruining people's lives because I suspect your mind is firmly closed. But as the Tory party has got a message across by using three word sound bites - can I suggest a few things you might like to consider?
Something called NICE
Post Code Lottery
Care in Community
Cancer in Kidneys
Prostate Cancer Screening
Cystic Fibrosis Sufferers
Cost effective treatment
Ambulances that arrive
Doctors at weekends
Not my budget | |
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