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HS2 23:00 - Jan 20 with 4448 viewsRyorry

I'm guessing there's probably a mix of views & feelings about it on here, but if those who are interested missed it this morning, one caller to the R5live phone in was an engineer who was allowed to remain anonymous. He said he'd sat in on early high level meetings, and was shocked that the project was given the go-ahead based purely on desk-top assessments & analyses, including costs. In other words without anyone even putting their feet on the ground to look at any of the geology or topography of the route! No wonder the cost has exploded.

Atonished at how some of our politicians keep getting away with their sheer ineptitude & stupidity. I stopped being surprised at the self-interest, greed & corruption years ago.

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HS2 on 23:08 - Jan 20 with 2754 viewsjeera

88 billion and rising the last I read.

Started at estimations of 56 Billion.

#magicmoneytree

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HS2 on 23:10 - Jan 20 with 2756 viewsGuthrum

Simple - it's a policy decision, not an economic one. It's a marvellous-sounding concept, rather than a well-thought-out plan.

Tho if and when it is eventually built, there are likely to be economic benefits for the country, just at enormous cost.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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HS2 on 23:12 - Jan 20 with 2757 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Rail needs huge investment, but not to knock 20 mins off a commute from manchester to London.

govt gave HS2 the green light to benefit London. It would have been better spent on improving public transport in the region's.

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HS2 on 23:23 - Jan 20 with 2731 viewsRyorry

HS2 on 23:12 - Jan 20 by Marshalls_Mullet

Rail needs huge investment, but not to knock 20 mins off a commute from manchester to London.

govt gave HS2 the green light to benefit London. It would have been better spent on improving public transport in the region's.


Quite.

Everything London-centric - very simple & easy to get there & back already, from anywhere in the country - frequent fast trains with plenty of seats available.

But try getting to Birmingham from Leeds, or similar cross-country journeys between any Northern, Midlands, or (god help you) South-Western destinations & it'll take a ridiculous number of hours, connections (incl many missed ones due to delays), ££ outlaid, & physical/mental exhaustion.

It'd be far, far more cost effective, economically valuable & socially useful to spend a few quid on upgrading & improving the currently existing infrastructure & stock.

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HS2 on 23:54 - Jan 20 with 2697 viewsfactual_blue

HS2 on 23:10 - Jan 20 by Guthrum

Simple - it's a policy decision, not an economic one. It's a marvellous-sounding concept, rather than a well-thought-out plan.

Tho if and when it is eventually built, there are likely to be economic benefits for the country, just at enormous cost.


I think the real reason is that the only way we can use high speed trains in this country at all is by building entirely new infrastructure.

Our railway lines are pushing towards 200 years old, probably not in the right places and incapable of being made fit for purpose to make the best of 21st century technology.

I blame the incompetence of the Luftwaffe.

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HS2 on 00:11 - Jan 21 with 2682 viewsChurchman

HS2 on 23:54 - Jan 20 by factual_blue

I think the real reason is that the only way we can use high speed trains in this country at all is by building entirely new infrastructure.

Our railway lines are pushing towards 200 years old, probably not in the right places and incapable of being made fit for purpose to make the best of 21st century technology.

I blame the incompetence of the Luftwaffe.


The Luftwaffe had a go with with what they had, but didn’t make a great job of it. Funnily enough I was told by somebody who knew about the railways that lack of investment and over use during the war basically wore the railways out. Add in the delightful Dr Beeching who took an axe to them, not least because he had an vested interest in road transport and there you have it.

Investment in transport infrastructure on a big scale is necessary and desirable; rail, road, airports and carrier pigeon. It enables economies to grow. Whether HS2 is a good way to develop it, I’ve no idea. The figures do sound absurd. However, in general I like the idea of these type of projects. Maybe it’s because I’m a big fan of the Victorian engineers. People of vision - apart from the idiot that built the first Tay Bridge!
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HS2 on 01:08 - Jan 21 with 2651 viewsThe_Last_Baron

Time to cut our losses and scrap the project.

Spend the money on improving rail services in the North and Midlands instead.

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HS2 on 07:12 - Jan 21 with 2561 viewsSwansea_Blue

HS2 on 23:08 - Jan 20 by jeera

88 billion and rising the last I read.

Started at estimations of 56 Billion.

#magicmoneytree


On the radio news yesterday they were saying the new estimate is at least £106bn. I’m not sure who’s released that figure.

Seems a lot for little gain.

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HS2 on 07:31 - Jan 21 with 2543 viewshampstead_blue

I'm not surprised to read this post. I do hope that Cummings gets to grip with that stupidly weak form of budgeting and procurement.

HS2 is important and should go ahead. However, you've also got to get West to East trains sorted as well. It will be a great thing for the country.

This could be a good chance to get it done.

Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me. Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing. Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial. Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid. Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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HS2 on 07:36 - Jan 21 with 2540 viewsSteve_M

It was a political project, pushed by Osborne at the same time as he was cutting just about any other part of the public sector he possibly could and the 'published' benefits of reducing journey times are minimal.

However, despite the costs, I'm now broadly in favour of HS2 as it represents the only way to improve existing rail capacity because by taking the fastest trains off the existing line more frequent, but slower, services can run on them without needing to leave large gaps for fast chains.

Also, the idea that it can be easily scrapped having sunk billions into it already seems fallacious. Construction has already started with large amounts of disruption in Camden - obviously that doesn't count for the Tory MPs vehemently against it. The environmental case against it is pretty weak too, it ignores the alternatives which will be more cars rather than fewer journeys.

One final point though, it needs to be the whole project and not just the London - Birmingham and Manchester part. Rail infrastructure in the north is appalling - not helped by the Tory habit of downgrading projects immediately post-election and only reinstating them just in time for the next one.

As with Heathrow's third runway, it has many problems but is still the best realistic alternative.

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HS2 on 07:41 - Jan 21 with 2528 viewsSaleAway

HS2 on 07:36 - Jan 21 by Steve_M

It was a political project, pushed by Osborne at the same time as he was cutting just about any other part of the public sector he possibly could and the 'published' benefits of reducing journey times are minimal.

However, despite the costs, I'm now broadly in favour of HS2 as it represents the only way to improve existing rail capacity because by taking the fastest trains off the existing line more frequent, but slower, services can run on them without needing to leave large gaps for fast chains.

Also, the idea that it can be easily scrapped having sunk billions into it already seems fallacious. Construction has already started with large amounts of disruption in Camden - obviously that doesn't count for the Tory MPs vehemently against it. The environmental case against it is pretty weak too, it ignores the alternatives which will be more cars rather than fewer journeys.

One final point though, it needs to be the whole project and not just the London - Birmingham and Manchester part. Rail infrastructure in the north is appalling - not helped by the Tory habit of downgrading projects immediately post-election and only reinstating them just in time for the next one.

As with Heathrow's third runway, it has many problems but is still the best realistic alternative.


I had a long chat about HS2 witha guy who works on the railways. The biggest problem for me is that it has been marketed as a High speed link, and like people say, we don't need to take 20 minutes off the 2 hour journey from Manchester to London, its already fine.

BUT, the west coast network is running at capacity, we can't improve what we have - in order to create more capacity, we have to build a new line. When you look at it that way - its the only way to do it.

Having said that - if you want to spend money on the railways - then sorting out the liverpool/manchester/leeds route would be my choice. And invest the spare money in developing the economies in those cities, such that there is less demand for capacity to London.

AS a country we really need to become less London centric

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HS2 on 07:59 - Jan 21 with 2507 viewsSteve_M

HS2 on 07:41 - Jan 21 by SaleAway

I had a long chat about HS2 witha guy who works on the railways. The biggest problem for me is that it has been marketed as a High speed link, and like people say, we don't need to take 20 minutes off the 2 hour journey from Manchester to London, its already fine.

BUT, the west coast network is running at capacity, we can't improve what we have - in order to create more capacity, we have to build a new line. When you look at it that way - its the only way to do it.

Having said that - if you want to spend money on the railways - then sorting out the liverpool/manchester/leeds route would be my choice. And invest the spare money in developing the economies in those cities, such that there is less demand for capacity to London.

AS a country we really need to become less London centric


Indeed, the last upgrade to the West coast mainline took about a decade, ran massively over budget and saw widespread disruption. On a smaller scale anyone who regularly travels between Ipswich and Liverpool Street knows how tedious 20 years of engineering work, with no end in sight, has been.

I would agree about the country becoming less London-centric and the need to invest in more infrastructure in the North. The re-generation of regional cities has certainly helped over the past couple of decades but the transport links haven't caught up - that the failure to increase through-platform capacity at Manchester Piccadilly can cause delays across the north is poor.

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HS2 on 08:23 - Jan 21 with 2456 viewseireblue

HS2 on 23:54 - Jan 20 by factual_blue

I think the real reason is that the only way we can use high speed trains in this country at all is by building entirely new infrastructure.

Our railway lines are pushing towards 200 years old, probably not in the right places and incapable of being made fit for purpose to make the best of 21st century technology.

I blame the incompetence of the Luftwaffe.


And the Romans, the started this obsessive nonsense with roads into Londinium.

Nothing wrong with a decent grid system as a Druid very possibly may have said whilst tutting.

Hmm, should I add usual Factors age based joke referencing a possible conversation with said Druid on this topic.
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HS2 on 08:25 - Jan 21 with 2449 viewshampstead_blue

HS2 on 07:36 - Jan 21 by Steve_M

It was a political project, pushed by Osborne at the same time as he was cutting just about any other part of the public sector he possibly could and the 'published' benefits of reducing journey times are minimal.

However, despite the costs, I'm now broadly in favour of HS2 as it represents the only way to improve existing rail capacity because by taking the fastest trains off the existing line more frequent, but slower, services can run on them without needing to leave large gaps for fast chains.

Also, the idea that it can be easily scrapped having sunk billions into it already seems fallacious. Construction has already started with large amounts of disruption in Camden - obviously that doesn't count for the Tory MPs vehemently against it. The environmental case against it is pretty weak too, it ignores the alternatives which will be more cars rather than fewer journeys.

One final point though, it needs to be the whole project and not just the London - Birmingham and Manchester part. Rail infrastructure in the north is appalling - not helped by the Tory habit of downgrading projects immediately post-election and only reinstating them just in time for the next one.

As with Heathrow's third runway, it has many problems but is still the best realistic alternative.


Agree.

Osbourne's lack of diligence has left the taxpayer and current Government with a really tough decision.
However, I am for taking it to Manchester but also to invest in the East to West links as well.
Investing to make good the already sunk costs is not the best decision making. Rationality is lost and you get further into the hole.
It's brave to stop, but there would also be opportunity from what has been done.

Heathrow's 3rd runway should be picked apart and presented to the public in terms we understand. I mean that taking away the legalise and offering simple terms.

Panorama would do a great job.
I think there are some assumptions and schemes in that proposal which are very optimistic.

FTR, I'm pro HS2 to manchester and very unsure about Heathrow

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HS2 on 08:26 - Jan 21 with 2446 viewstractordownsouth

It’s a load of sh1te... It’s supposed to be something to connect the North and South and reduce regional inequality but all it’ll do is get more people commuting to and from London to northern cities. It’s not the cities that need the money anyway, it’s the towns. I’d scrap it, take the hit on the sunk costs and spend it on regional transport to improve geographical mobility in places like Cornwall, West Wales, Yorkshire etc.

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HS2 on 08:27 - Jan 21 with 2453 viewsitfcjoe

Shelve it, and stick the investment into the railways connecting towns and cities rather than just everything to London.

Surely it's better for those in the North to have better access into the big cities there rather than be able to get to London quicker - Northern Powerhouse can't just mean a quicker route to London!

I wonder how much it would cost to get the whole old network up and running - even in Suffolk there are loads of closed stations.

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HS2 on 08:27 - Jan 21 with 2447 viewsIpswichKnight

HS2 on 23:10 - Jan 20 by Guthrum

Simple - it's a policy decision, not an economic one. It's a marvellous-sounding concept, rather than a well-thought-out plan.

Tho if and when it is eventually built, there are likely to be economic benefits for the country, just at enormous cost.


Everyone thinks it's a good idea until it goes past there village or Town, then it becomes the worst idea in the history of the world.
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HS2 on 08:38 - Jan 21 with 2435 viewsNthQldITFC

HS2 on 23:12 - Jan 20 by Marshalls_Mullet

Rail needs huge investment, but not to knock 20 mins off a commute from manchester to London.

govt gave HS2 the green light to benefit London. It would have been better spent on improving public transport in the region's.


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HS2 on 08:49 - Jan 21 with 2425 viewsLord_Lucan

HS2 on 08:27 - Jan 21 by itfcjoe

Shelve it, and stick the investment into the railways connecting towns and cities rather than just everything to London.

Surely it's better for those in the North to have better access into the big cities there rather than be able to get to London quicker - Northern Powerhouse can't just mean a quicker route to London!

I wonder how much it would cost to get the whole old network up and running - even in Suffolk there are loads of closed stations.


Exactly, it's bloody madness.

We are not a big country, no need for high speed. Get the local infrastructure up to scratch and get the people to work on time.

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HS2 on 08:51 - Jan 21 with 2422 viewsitfcjoe

HS2 on 08:49 - Jan 21 by Lord_Lucan

Exactly, it's bloody madness.

We are not a big country, no need for high speed. Get the local infrastructure up to scratch and get the people to work on time.


It's like this whole London to 60 campaign from Ipswich - I'd rather the trains just be reliable rather than 1 train every hour get there 15 minutes faster

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HS2 on 09:03 - Jan 21 with 2388 viewsTractorWood

HS2 on 08:27 - Jan 21 by itfcjoe

Shelve it, and stick the investment into the railways connecting towns and cities rather than just everything to London.

Surely it's better for those in the North to have better access into the big cities there rather than be able to get to London quicker - Northern Powerhouse can't just mean a quicker route to London!

I wonder how much it would cost to get the whole old network up and running - even in Suffolk there are loads of closed stations.


Bang on. That Cambridge to Ipswich service is a disgrace.

The best way to get from Cambridge to Oxford is a 2.5 hour drive. Train has to go through London.

Manchester to Liverpool was 57 minutes when I looked for Saturday. It's 34 miles.

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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HS2 on 09:16 - Jan 21 with 2370 viewsStokieBlue

It should be shelved as it's collosally expensive (x10 the prices some other countries pay for high-speed railways) and will never be completed on time.

The UK and England specifically is a crowded place, building things like HS2 require monumental expense as everything is owned and plenty of people are very nimbyish even though the majority will claim they aren't. There is countless litigation and appeals.

Connecting cities directly would be a better use of the money but it's just as likely to fall fowl of the land purchasing and nimbyism as any other project. Unless people are willing to accept something for the greater good (something we know many aren't) then I don't really see any of these new projects coming in on a reasonable budget or in a reasonable time.

HS2 as it stands it a total rip-off though.

SB

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HS2 on 09:32 - Jan 21 with 2340 viewsGuthrum

HS2 on 08:27 - Jan 21 by itfcjoe

Shelve it, and stick the investment into the railways connecting towns and cities rather than just everything to London.

Surely it's better for those in the North to have better access into the big cities there rather than be able to get to London quicker - Northern Powerhouse can't just mean a quicker route to London!

I wonder how much it would cost to get the whole old network up and running - even in Suffolk there are loads of closed stations.


You'd have to be selective. Quite a lot of the old network was duplication (due to rivalry between different companies) and tiny branch lines which didn't go where they were really needed, carried very little traffic and never made a profit (e.g. the Mid Suffolk Light Railway). Some were even vanity projects (e.g. the Thaxted branch).

Also essential stretches of trackbed in urban areas - and former stations everywhere - have been built over or reused. That would require hugely expensive compulsory purchase and demolition on a large scale.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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HS2 on 10:04 - Jan 21 with 2313 viewsjontysnut

HS2 on 08:49 - Jan 21 by Lord_Lucan

Exactly, it's bloody madness.

We are not a big country, no need for high speed. Get the local infrastructure up to scratch and get the people to work on time.


I think it was a Viz Top Tip along the lines of 'do you need to get from London to Birmingham half an hour earlier? Then get an earlier train...'

As people have said it's also about capacity as much as speed although 2 hours from Leeds to Birmingham is ridiculous. My commuting mate from Kent couldn't believe that a peak train from Leeds to Manchester was three carriages long.
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HS2 on 10:06 - Jan 21 with 2311 viewsElephantintheRoom

That is the way things are done in this country. It was a policy decision with lots of expert opinion charging by the hour.

Its bad news for the bunnies and the newts - but in theory IF it happens it can only be good to have a decent rail service in this country that doesnt have to squeeze through victorian tunnels. Who knows we might even go double decker and catch up with what less advanced and less wonderful countries were doing decades ago.,

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