| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. 12:28 - Jan 23 with 27681 views | monytowbray |
Is why many feel the need to assume what they think is patriotic or the opinion of the masses? Farage I regularly used to see referred as the man of the people. Tommy Robinson and Hopkins are regularly said to "just be saying what everyone's thinking" by the same folk.
Why do they feel the need to project their lack of values on everyone or claim it's the British thing to do? These people are far from a "majority", let alone a "silent" one if you spend 5 minutes reading the rubbish spouted on social media.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone equate a leftist idea as patriotic or something everyone believes deep down because to do so with any idea is nonsense, even if in the actual majority. I don't believe banning hunting is the British thing to do or something everyone thinks for example, even though you'd hard pressed to find many people who are pro-hunting next to the masses of people against it.
Eurgh. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:34 - Jan 23 with 4627 views | BackToRussia |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:30 - Jan 23 by StokieBlue |
A slight aside but what was the issue with the NATO action in Serbia?
There was literally ethnic cleansing going on.
SB |
Weren't both sides at it tho? |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:38 - Jan 23 with 4611 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:30 - Jan 23 by StokieBlue |
A slight aside but what was the issue with the NATO action in Serbia?
There was literally ethnic cleansing going on.
SB |
Intervention was absolutely the correct move.
If anything there, NATO took too much time before intervening. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:39 - Jan 23 with 4605 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:34 - Jan 23 by BackToRussia |
Weren't both sides at it tho? |
Regular Muslim families were being dragged from their homes and slaughtered in the street in their numbers. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:39 - Jan 23 with 4604 views | StokieBlue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:34 - Jan 23 by BackToRussia |
Weren't both sides at it tho? |
That's not my recollection but someone might correct me but it was a totally one-sided conflict with the Serbs holding all the power.
SB |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:40 - Jan 23 with 4603 views | Lord_Lucan |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:34 - Jan 23 by BackToRussia |
Weren't both sides at it tho? |
It wasn't the best place to be for Muslims R
Some horrid stuff went down there - too bad to mention. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:03 - Jan 23 with 4572 views | 26_Paz |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:30 - Jan 23 by StokieBlue |
A slight aside but what was the issue with the NATO action in Serbia?
There was literally ethnic cleansing going on.
SB |
I said it, so it must automatically be wrong in some people’s eyes |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:06 - Jan 23 with 4568 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:03 - Jan 23 by 26_Paz |
I said it, so it must automatically be wrong in some people’s eyes |
Well that's clearly ridiculous so why not have a normal chat and stop playing some victim.
You do not get to take credit in any way for the slaughter of thousands and the response of NATO. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:14 - Jan 23 with 4556 views | Clapham_Junction |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 15:38 - Jan 23 by itfcjoe |
Plus also the nation that has spread most good to the world with democracy, administration, helathcare, etc.
To write off Empire as bad full stop, is just as silly as saying it was all good - it's such a fundamental part of human history that the world wouldn't be as it is today without it |
I agree with the second part of the statement, but I'm not convinced that we did as much to spread democracy as many people think.
In most colonies, the right to vote was highly limited (for long periods just to the European population). Elaborate electoral systems were devised to give a handful of Europeans disproportionate influence. Proper elections were often only held just before independence (to create an 'independence government'), without having embedded democracy in the country, one reason why many of them immediately descended into dictatorship.
The American civil rights movement is well known, but Australia did not grant universal suffrage to the aboriginal population until 1962. |  | | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:29 - Jan 23 with 4533 views | BackToRussia |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:40 - Jan 23 by Lord_Lucan |
It wasn't the best place to be for Muslims R
Some horrid stuff went down there - too bad to mention. |
Yes I know. I just remember reading about it and thinking there was some hypocrisy in our involvement but I could have misremembered. It's not important to my point. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:30 - Jan 23 with 4509 views | GlasgowBlue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:34 - Jan 23 by BackToRussia |
Weren't both sides at it tho? |
Seriously mate you need to stop swallowing this Stop The War Coalition bullsh1t propaganda that you are being fed and read up on the Srebrenica massacre.
Over 8000 Muslim men and boys murdered as part of a programme of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs. Had we not gone in then several thousand more would have suffered the same fate.
A trial in The Hague, ruled that the massacre constituted genocide, |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:35 - Jan 23 with 4501 views | matteoblue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 16:08 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
As you say they're problematic terms but generally "modern" right-wingers now want to dismantle the physical institutions of state and prioritise personal liberty and opportunity instead.
Left-wingers now want to prop up the state as a defence of people's rights and to promote equality and justice.
On a related note, it should never be either or but the balance between the two that makes a country a great place to live. So it annoys me when right-wingers talk about equality in terms of"equality of opportunity". People have very different chances of taking those opportunities in the first place even if they're available to all and they can be hoovered upwards. This is just more individual liberty by a different name. |
This is very true what you say. There is certainly a significant change going on in government, I’m wondering if you are referring to the current government and the way it is set up in office and the way it is interacting (or not) with the civil service?
The term “modern right wing“ is very interesting. Is it possible that the people now in power who are changing the institutions are not as right-wing as we might be led to believe? Does this tell us that they are not very conservative at all, as they are certainly not doing much to conserve these institutions.
Also what you say about personal liberty is interesting, and about equality of opportunity. It's probably something that can never be achieved, but from a right wing perspective which I where I certainly sit, I see that striving for this is the best way to achieve a happy and prosperous society. There's no perfect solution. You hit exactly the right note when you say we have to achieve a balance, but I don't see what's wrong with personal liberty. I should add that it should certainly be constrained from doing morally wrong, with a strong justice system. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 18:28 - Jan 23 with 4441 views | 26_Paz |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:06 - Jan 23 by jeera |
Well that's clearly ridiculous so why not have a normal chat and stop playing some victim.
You do not get to take credit in any way for the slaughter of thousands and the response of NATO. |
Where did I do that? Someone asked me for some examples and I gave them some. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 19:03 - Jan 23 with 4402 views | Darth_Koont |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 17:35 - Jan 23 by matteoblue |
This is very true what you say. There is certainly a significant change going on in government, I’m wondering if you are referring to the current government and the way it is set up in office and the way it is interacting (or not) with the civil service?
The term “modern right wing“ is very interesting. Is it possible that the people now in power who are changing the institutions are not as right-wing as we might be led to believe? Does this tell us that they are not very conservative at all, as they are certainly not doing much to conserve these institutions.
Also what you say about personal liberty is interesting, and about equality of opportunity. It's probably something that can never be achieved, but from a right wing perspective which I where I certainly sit, I see that striving for this is the best way to achieve a happy and prosperous society. There's no perfect solution. You hit exactly the right note when you say we have to achieve a balance, but I don't see what's wrong with personal liberty. I should add that it should certainly be constrained from doing morally wrong, with a strong justice system. |
What I would say is that there's a type of neoliberalism that has infected the right-wing in the UK and seems to come from the States. It's Thatcherism or Reaganomics but turned into a religion that I don't even think Thatcher or Reagan would endorse today.
There's nothing wrong with Conservatism in the conventional sense and also capitalism in the conventional sense. These provide an important balance against the excesses of pure, unadulterated socialism that can quickly become totalitarian and religious too. And they provide opportunity which is hugely important in developing countries.
But if you look at the UK and you look at the world with child poverty or environmental catastrophe seen as a necessary byproduct somehow then you need to recognise it's also very dangerous when it goes too far. In a modern, developed country neoliberalism only really rewards a relatively small percentage of its biggest fans and media owners. And keeps everyone else working, worrying, failing and fighting.
"Equality of opportunity" is a similar scam. It says that we care about equality (it's in the name) but in reality we know that it will keep funneling opportunities and money to those who share the platform. True equality is giving extra opportunity to the people who statistically need it so that they can also share the same benefits of a strong economy and society. The much maligned "equality of outcome" is really a commitment to true, measurable equality. Equality of opportunity goes against that because we know that doesn't actually change much but sounds like it does. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 19:43 - Jan 23 with 4371 views | HARRY10 |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 12:54 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
I've said it repeatedly, IMO most people are more right wing than they admit in public.
I could reverse your question. Why do many on the liberal left think they are 100% right and any other views are down to a lack of intelligence?
I'm not disagreeing with your post, just saying both sides are guilty of many of the same things but most will deny it. |
Because when put to any test of reasoned debate, they are right.
[Post edited 23 Jan 2020 20:04]
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 19:46 - Jan 23 with 4368 views | Kropotkin123 |
Politics is an axis. On the Left is cooperation. On the right is competition. Up top is liberty. Down at the bottom is Authority.
Cooperation (left) is inherently less nationalist, because it leads to the cooperation of nations. The right is inherently more nationalist because it leads to competition between nations.
Patriotism is a form of nationalism... a form of competition.
Obviously these are generalisms. But that is essentially why. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 20:12 - Jan 23 with 4342 views | Darth_Koont |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 19:46 - Jan 23 by Kropotkin123 |
Politics is an axis. On the Left is cooperation. On the right is competition. Up top is liberty. Down at the bottom is Authority.
Cooperation (left) is inherently less nationalist, because it leads to the cooperation of nations. The right is inherently more nationalist because it leads to competition between nations.
Patriotism is a form of nationalism... a form of competition.
Obviously these are generalisms. But that is essentially why. |
It's an interesting way of seeing it and I agree generally.
Do you think that liberty could be the individual and authority is the group or even government?
A book that made a huge amount of sense was "Sapiens" which reduces it to a a battle and balance between equality and liberty. That makes so much sense.
Also I think that third part of the French national motto "fraternité" is probably the key to it all. It means that everyone agrees that liberty and equality are both necessary and there's a feeling of mutual respect. But also an idea of "if you win, I also win" which is sorely lacking today. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 21:21 - Jan 23 with 4299 views | matteoblue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 19:03 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
What I would say is that there's a type of neoliberalism that has infected the right-wing in the UK and seems to come from the States. It's Thatcherism or Reaganomics but turned into a religion that I don't even think Thatcher or Reagan would endorse today.
There's nothing wrong with Conservatism in the conventional sense and also capitalism in the conventional sense. These provide an important balance against the excesses of pure, unadulterated socialism that can quickly become totalitarian and religious too. And they provide opportunity which is hugely important in developing countries.
But if you look at the UK and you look at the world with child poverty or environmental catastrophe seen as a necessary byproduct somehow then you need to recognise it's also very dangerous when it goes too far. In a modern, developed country neoliberalism only really rewards a relatively small percentage of its biggest fans and media owners. And keeps everyone else working, worrying, failing and fighting.
"Equality of opportunity" is a similar scam. It says that we care about equality (it's in the name) but in reality we know that it will keep funneling opportunities and money to those who share the platform. True equality is giving extra opportunity to the people who statistically need it so that they can also share the same benefits of a strong economy and society. The much maligned "equality of outcome" is really a commitment to true, measurable equality. Equality of opportunity goes against that because we know that doesn't actually change much but sounds like it does. |
Again, I think you are spot on with your analysis, and I agree the Thatcher/Reagan policies would look tame today. At the time, they were certainly conceived as right wing and from a socialist point of view, they certainly were. They harnessed global economics which cares little for local communities or actual social culture of societies. The difference then is that you had the existence of the Soviet Union as a world power, although by the 80s there was a sense, certainly in the Soviet Union itself, that the dream of communism hadn't worked and something was seriously wrong. But the existence of the Soviet Union allowed what was then 'the West' to embark on large scale capitalist policies against the perceived threat of the Soviet Union. This kept the Marxists at bay, but since the collapse of the Soviet Union they have themselves embraced capitalism and now their egalitarian ideas of a much larger state against the private liberty, their anti-family policies and high tax policies are in place by our current 'Conservative' government. They make talk of 'equality of opportunity', but they are interested in no such thing. It's all talk. This is what confuses people about left and right, the Conservative Party talk right wing, but deliver no such conservative policies. It's all 'neo-liberal' economics as you say, which does nothing to conserve a unique culture that an island nation like Britain has (had). It wants an internationalist, global society which fits neatly with capitalism, with the EU, with big business. I don't see this conserving anything in Britain. It will completely destroy everything it was. [Post edited 23 Jan 2020 21:48]
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| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 22:26 - Jan 23 with 4266 views | Darth_Koont |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 21:21 - Jan 23 by matteoblue |
Again, I think you are spot on with your analysis, and I agree the Thatcher/Reagan policies would look tame today. At the time, they were certainly conceived as right wing and from a socialist point of view, they certainly were. They harnessed global economics which cares little for local communities or actual social culture of societies. The difference then is that you had the existence of the Soviet Union as a world power, although by the 80s there was a sense, certainly in the Soviet Union itself, that the dream of communism hadn't worked and something was seriously wrong. But the existence of the Soviet Union allowed what was then 'the West' to embark on large scale capitalist policies against the perceived threat of the Soviet Union. This kept the Marxists at bay, but since the collapse of the Soviet Union they have themselves embraced capitalism and now their egalitarian ideas of a much larger state against the private liberty, their anti-family policies and high tax policies are in place by our current 'Conservative' government. They make talk of 'equality of opportunity', but they are interested in no such thing. It's all talk. This is what confuses people about left and right, the Conservative Party talk right wing, but deliver no such conservative policies. It's all 'neo-liberal' economics as you say, which does nothing to conserve a unique culture that an island nation like Britain has (had). It wants an internationalist, global society which fits neatly with capitalism, with the EU, with big business. I don't see this conserving anything in Britain. It will completely destroy everything it was. [Post edited 23 Jan 2020 21:48]
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I agree with a lot of that. But what will keep society and also the union together in the UK will be a fairer, more equitable system. Which is why the current government is possibly the worst ever, crippling the country with Brexit and likely instigating the break up of the UK along the way.
And let's be clear: There's ALWAYS an argument for committed capitalists and committed socialists working together for society's best.
But modern right-wing politicians are just faith-based snake oil salesmen who won't have to deal with the results of their lies. These people in government aren't businessmen and women. They're not campaigners and they're not even semi-competent administrators. They're gobshyte marketeers who will never carry the can because they don't even know what the can is. Knowing stuff has never ever been important for them which is why they're unapologetically wrong about almost everything.
That's the modern right wing. Certainly in the UK and US. They want to take down the state and society by being utterly useless.Then pick up their share of the pieces. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 22:46 - Jan 23 with 4252 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 13:15 - Jan 23 by r2d2 |
What is being patriotic though? The Royal family? The NHS? Following the England football team? Our Armed forces? The countries historic ruins? The history of our country? Lots of things can be classed as patriotic, doesnt make people right wing though. |
I'd say it should be wanting what's best for the country, rather than blind obedience to convention. Understanding our position in the world and being able to judge what we need to do to improve things for the benefit of everyone who lives here and forms our society. Whilst simultaneously being a mature actor on the global stage and a being voice for positive change in the name of the common good (for people, regions and the planet).
Naive, I know. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 22:50 - Jan 23 with 4249 views | Darth_Koont |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 22:46 - Jan 23 by Swansea_Blue |
I'd say it should be wanting what's best for the country, rather than blind obedience to convention. Understanding our position in the world and being able to judge what we need to do to improve things for the benefit of everyone who lives here and forms our society. Whilst simultaneously being a mature actor on the global stage and a being voice for positive change in the name of the common good (for people, regions and the planet).
Naive, I know. |
You stupid idiot.
You're absolutely right though. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 23:38 - Jan 23 with 4225 views | Seablu |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 12:54 - Jan 23 by J2BLUE |
I've said it repeatedly, IMO most people are more right wing than they admit in public.
I could reverse your question. Why do many on the liberal left think they are 100% right and any other views are down to a lack of intelligence?
I'm not disagreeing with your post, just saying both sides are guilty of many of the same things but most will deny it. |
I think the election result backs up your point perfectly regarding people being more right wing than they admit.
I also think a lot of very impressionable, desperate & uneducated wretches that scribbled their crosses in the right wing boxes are the ones who will now suffer a torrid period of disappointment & misery.
I also believe that left leaning folk are brighter & better people, and everything I read on this forum merely reinforces that belief. |  | | |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 23:40 - Jan 23 with 4222 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 22:50 - Jan 23 by Darth_Koont |
You stupid idiot.
You're absolutely right though. |
I agree entirely. With the first line at least. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 07:27 - Jan 24 with 4167 views | 26_Paz |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 23:38 - Jan 23 by Seablu |
I think the election result backs up your point perfectly regarding people being more right wing than they admit.
I also think a lot of very impressionable, desperate & uneducated wretches that scribbled their crosses in the right wing boxes are the ones who will now suffer a torrid period of disappointment & misery.
I also believe that left leaning folk are brighter & better people, and everything I read on this forum merely reinforces that belief. |
You believe left wing people are ‘better’. Wow.
I’ve made this point on here before. It’s that general attitude from people on the left that does not endear them to the average joe who doesn’t take much interest in politics ... [Post edited 24 Jan 2020 7:27]
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 08:12 - Jan 24 with 4152 views | monytowbray |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 07:27 - Jan 24 by 26_Paz |
You believe left wing people are ‘better’. Wow.
I’ve made this point on here before. It’s that general attitude from people on the left that does not endear them to the average joe who doesn’t take much interest in politics ... [Post edited 24 Jan 2020 7:27]
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Tell us, what makes right wing views better than left wing views? The floor is yours again. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 08:21 - Jan 24 with 4146 views | GlasgowBlue |
| One thing that's really bugged me a while about the right wing. on 08:12 - Jan 24 by monytowbray |
Tell us, what makes right wing views better than left wing views? The floor is yours again. |
Neither view is better. Anyone, left or right, who thinks that their political view is in some way intellectually or morally superior needs to take their head of of their anus. | |
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