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Employment gurus... 12:06 - Jan 28 with 3496 viewsTIB

Hi all,

I hope we're all well, I'm not on here as much anymore but was hoping for some advice.

Alongside running Away Days I'm also a teacher at a private healthcare (charity) hospital in the East Midlands where I've been for eight years. Yesterday we were informed that the NHS would be buying the hospital and briefed on how redundancy would work. We were also told three times it wouldn't be a TUPE transfer so no jobs were guaranteed the other side and if there were jobs, we'd have to apply for them.

Can anyone explain how / why this wouldn't be a TUPE? Not surprisingly a lot of folk are freaking out and I figured TWTD was the best place for answers.

Cheers,

Josh


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Employment gurus... on 12:08 - Jan 28 with 3462 viewschicoazul

I don't *think* TUPE applies to charities.

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Employment gurus... on 12:08 - Jan 28 with 3458 viewsfactual_blue

Presumably the 'new' jobs have been designed to be sufficiently different to the 'old' jobs. This means your existing T&Cs won't apply, but I don't think NHS T&Cs are too bad.

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Employment gurus... on 12:21 - Jan 28 with 3404 viewsBloomBlue

Sounds like you're being made redundant, TUPE doesnt protect you from redundancy in some situations. TUPE will protect you against it unless there is an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce.
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Employment gurus... on 12:25 - Jan 28 with 3376 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 12:08 - Jan 28 by factual_blue

Presumably the 'new' jobs have been designed to be sufficiently different to the 'old' jobs. This means your existing T&Cs won't apply, but I don't think NHS T&Cs are too bad.


In regards to the T&C's, for ward staff, the new patients coming in from the transferring hospital are very similar...I think that's what folk are struggling to come to terms with. I suspected a job for me would be limited as fairly specialist job and not offered in all secure services.

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Employment gurus... on 12:27 - Jan 28 with 3364 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Sorry to hear that, have you tried getting in touch with ACAS for free advice?

I know a few people who have used them in redundancy situations, and they have spoken highly of them. I believe the advice is free.

https://www.acas.org.uk/

P.S. I got made redundant c.18 months ago.... its by no means the end of the world if it does happen, and often leads to better opportunities.

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Employment gurus... on 12:29 - Jan 28 with 3344 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Employment gurus... on 12:25 - Jan 28 by TIB

In regards to the T&C's, for ward staff, the new patients coming in from the transferring hospital are very similar...I think that's what folk are struggling to come to terms with. I suspected a job for me would be limited as fairly specialist job and not offered in all secure services.


AT least 8 years service should buy you a bit of breathing space in terms of a pay off.

You'd be best starting to look for a new job now by the sounds of it.

....will the NHS be contracting jobs out to someone like Kier?

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Employment gurus... on 12:33 - Jan 28 with 3328 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 12:27 - Jan 28 by Marshalls_Mullet

Sorry to hear that, have you tried getting in touch with ACAS for free advice?

I know a few people who have used them in redundancy situations, and they have spoken highly of them. I believe the advice is free.

https://www.acas.org.uk/

P.S. I got made redundant c.18 months ago.... its by no means the end of the world if it does happen, and often leads to better opportunities.


Cheers Marshall I'm going to give them a go. To be fair, the redundancy package is good, better than I expected and it might well give me the chance to pursue Away Days a bit more...or a fresh start elsewhere or in a new field. I like to think everything happens for a reason. Just a bit gutted as I've worked with some of the guys for years and love the tight team we have on the site.

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Employment gurus... on 12:40 - Jan 28 with 3294 viewsfactual_blue

Employment gurus... on 12:25 - Jan 28 by TIB

In regards to the T&C's, for ward staff, the new patients coming in from the transferring hospital are very similar...I think that's what folk are struggling to come to terms with. I suspected a job for me would be limited as fairly specialist job and not offered in all secure services.


I don't think many NHS hospitals have an in-house brewery.

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Employment gurus... on 12:45 - Jan 28 with 3278 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Employment gurus... on 12:33 - Jan 28 by TIB

Cheers Marshall I'm going to give them a go. To be fair, the redundancy package is good, better than I expected and it might well give me the chance to pursue Away Days a bit more...or a fresh start elsewhere or in a new field. I like to think everything happens for a reason. Just a bit gutted as I've worked with some of the guys for years and love the tight team we have on the site.


After I got made redundant I set up on my own after a few people said they would join me as clients. Its been good for me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is 'Away Days'.

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Employment gurus... on 12:46 - Jan 28 with 3266 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Employment gurus... on 12:40 - Jan 28 by factual_blue

I don't think many NHS hospitals have an in-house brewery.


Maybe they should. ;-)

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Employment gurus... on 12:48 - Jan 28 with 3263 viewsBlueBadger

Employment gurus... on 12:40 - Jan 28 by factual_blue

I don't think many NHS hospitals have an in-house brewery.


Matt Hancock is interested in the idea of organising drinks parties in them, I understand.

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Employment gurus... on 13:03 - Jan 28 with 3222 viewsPendejo

Potential win / win surely?

IF, big If, you get redundancy and a job in new structure.

As redundancy hence why no TUPE, no carry over of existing rights most pertinent of which appears to be length of service zeroed.

Good luck whatever happens.

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Employment gurus... on 13:11 - Jan 28 with 3179 viewsSmithersJones

Re the OP, there are several well established criteria as to whether a business change classifies as a "transfer of undertaking". This is the key bit for you - if it's a transfer of an undertaking then TUPE applies, if it isn't then it doesn't. There's a good ACAS guide which you can find online which explains the criteria in more detail. You should formally ask your employer to explain why they believe it's not a transfer of an undertaking. As they have an obligation to consult with you over the redundancy it would be foolish of them to ignore your request.
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Employment gurus... on 13:15 - Jan 28 with 3166 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Employment gurus... on 13:11 - Jan 28 by SmithersJones

Re the OP, there are several well established criteria as to whether a business change classifies as a "transfer of undertaking". This is the key bit for you - if it's a transfer of an undertaking then TUPE applies, if it isn't then it doesn't. There's a good ACAS guide which you can find online which explains the criteria in more detail. You should formally ask your employer to explain why they believe it's not a transfer of an undertaking. As they have an obligation to consult with you over the redundancy it would be foolish of them to ignore your request.


You'd be surprised how many employers get the simple process of consultation wrong, or just ignore it altogether.

I got told my role was redundant with no prior notice or consultation, when I asked questions my boss said 'dont make this difficult'.

What a c-unit.

I played top trump lawyers with them...... and I won!!

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Employment gurus... on 13:23 - Jan 28 with 3129 viewsIpswichKnight

Employment gurus... on 13:15 - Jan 28 by Marshalls_Mullet

You'd be surprised how many employers get the simple process of consultation wrong, or just ignore it altogether.

I got told my role was redundant with no prior notice or consultation, when I asked questions my boss said 'dont make this difficult'.

What a c-unit.

I played top trump lawyers with them...... and I won!!


When one of my ex employers got taken over one of my colleagues turned up to a meeting at an offshore call centre and was introduced to the customer service manager which was a bit of a shock as that was her role and she was told the day before her and her role were being made redundant, suffice to say she and her laweyers got a VERY good payout over that.
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Employment gurus... on 13:26 - Jan 28 with 3116 viewsitfcjoe

Employment gurus... on 13:15 - Jan 28 by Marshalls_Mullet

You'd be surprised how many employers get the simple process of consultation wrong, or just ignore it altogether.

I got told my role was redundant with no prior notice or consultation, when I asked questions my boss said 'dont make this difficult'.

What a c-unit.

I played top trump lawyers with them...... and I won!!


I know a few who worked for a big insurance company who the Japanese had taken over, they got it all wrong and these guys ended up on a years full pay as their redundancy.

I know one of the big bosses from elsewhere and he basically said the board didn't care as just wanted it done and still ended up cheaper for them to do it that way

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Employment gurus... on 13:38 - Jan 28 with 3069 viewsElephantintheRoom

Unusual in that usually it is government and institutions outsourcing people to the private sector where these issues crop up - and you have managed to suffer this fate in reverse.

Depends on what your contract of employment says. A new employer such as the NHS would want to retain staff doing worthwhile jobs and get rid of what their bean counter sees as unnecessary cost. There is little logic to these things, simply decided by a third rate accountant with little knowledge of what they are tinkering with.... its just a spreadsheet to them.

The big advantage of non-TUPE might be related to pension costs - and certainly length of service... a lot of employers are doing fixed term contracts now... or even zero hours dressed up to look like they are doing you a favour.

I suspect the NHS might outsource teaching in a hospital but I have no idea.... at the large formerly government-funded place I am in today all the teachers were made redundant and they have recruited 'producers' to do the same job on more advantageous terms to the employer... largely around flexible hours, pension costs - and use of volunteers

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Employment gurus... on 13:40 - Jan 28 with 3062 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 12:45 - Jan 28 by Marshalls_Mullet

After I got made redundant I set up on my own after a few people said they would join me as clients. Its been good for me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is 'Away Days'.


Away Days is a football themed beer company I set up near two years ago. www.awaydaysbeer.com (website in midst of being updated).

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Employment gurus... on 13:40 - Jan 28 with 3055 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 12:40 - Jan 28 by factual_blue

I don't think many NHS hospitals have an in-house brewery.


A potential pitch right there.

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Employment gurus... on 13:46 - Jan 28 with 3036 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 13:11 - Jan 28 by SmithersJones

Re the OP, there are several well established criteria as to whether a business change classifies as a "transfer of undertaking". This is the key bit for you - if it's a transfer of an undertaking then TUPE applies, if it isn't then it doesn't. There's a good ACAS guide which you can find online which explains the criteria in more detail. You should formally ask your employer to explain why they believe it's not a transfer of an undertaking. As they have an obligation to consult with you over the redundancy it would be foolish of them to ignore your request.


I'm making an appointment with the hospital HR rep to try and get a few more answers. Having worked for the company for a while, I know they often do things a little slap dash so if they are trying to pull a fast one, it wouldn't surprise me.

I appreciate all the advice though, lots to look at and ask and hopefully have a better understanding of the situation soon.

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Employment gurus... on 13:53 - Jan 28 with 3003 viewsfactual_blue

Employment gurus... on 12:45 - Jan 28 by Marshalls_Mullet

After I got made redundant I set up on my own after a few people said they would join me as clients. Its been good for me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is 'Away Days'.


And you're still working as a male escort?

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Employment gurus... on 14:56 - Jan 28 with 2935 viewsBasuco

Employment gurus... on 13:40 - Jan 28 by TIB

Away Days is a football themed beer company I set up near two years ago. www.awaydaysbeer.com (website in midst of being updated).


I would recommend Hoppy Robson, Brazils best, The Beat and Pablo's pale to try first. Warning you may enjoy them quite a lot.
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Employment gurus... on 15:09 - Jan 28 with 2900 viewsTIB

Employment gurus... on 14:56 - Jan 28 by Basuco

I would recommend Hoppy Robson, Brazils best, The Beat and Pablo's pale to try first. Warning you may enjoy them quite a lot.


Yes Basuco!!! If I do Away Days full time I'll be looking at you to keep me afloat!!!

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Employment gurus... on 15:59 - Jan 28 with 2838 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

Employment gurus... on 13:53 - Jan 28 by factual_blue

And you're still working as a male escort?


Yeah, its pay handsomely.

Nice work to those of us who can get it ;-)

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