| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... 12:50 - Feb 9 with 7233 views | mos |
Why are you supporters of such policies? Genuinely interested in reasons for this, and debate. |  |
| |  |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 12:56 - Feb 9 with 3386 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
This is a football forum. Theres no such thing as 'debate'.
What you are after is a 10 pager, which eventually, Phil will delete. |  |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 with 3372 views | sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:36 - Feb 9 with 3313 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |
The same old lady who, if she finds hersekf in a nirsing home or hospital will be reliant upon thise immigrants.
Just a she will when using a checkout at her supermarket or postman etc
What has been sold to her and others is than somehow the UK will not need immigration if it leaves the EU. Yes, there will be far less employment so some/many might leave - but your example hardly stands up when so many in areas not affected by immigration voted to leave the EU.
And what is conveniently overlooked is that any deal with India. China etc will require a vast increase in immigration from those and similar countries.
Of course there is a much simpler solution, but I cannot see Tory voters accepting that. |  | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:38 - Feb 9 with 3306 views | sparks |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:36 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
The same old lady who, if she finds hersekf in a nirsing home or hospital will be reliant upon thise immigrants.
Just a she will when using a checkout at her supermarket or postman etc
What has been sold to her and others is than somehow the UK will not need immigration if it leaves the EU. Yes, there will be far less employment so some/many might leave - but your example hardly stands up when so many in areas not affected by immigration voted to leave the EU.
And what is conveniently overlooked is that any deal with India. China etc will require a vast increase in immigration from those and similar countries.
Of course there is a much simpler solution, but I cannot see Tory voters accepting that. |
You seem not to have actually read what I wrote.
The pace of change has been damaging to people's sense of wellbeing and to social cohesion. Whether we think its reasonable or not- human beings have those feelings and reactions. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:42 - Feb 9 with 3279 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:38 - Feb 9 by sparks |
You seem not to have actually read what I wrote.
The pace of change has been damaging to people's sense of wellbeing and to social cohesion. Whether we think its reasonable or not- human beings have those feelings and reactions. |
then why not all human beings in the UK ? | | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:43 - Feb 9 with 3269 views | sparks |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:42 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
then why not all human beings in the UK ? |
Sorry. You are right. All people are exactly the same. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:49 - Feb 9 with 3244 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:43 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Sorry. You are right. All people are exactly the same. |
eh ?
you make a claim, I point out the flaw, then you
spin it that .................I made that claim
one way of you getting out of a hole I suppose  | | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:55 - Feb 9 with 3222 views | sparks |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:49 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
eh ?
you make a claim, I point out the flaw, then you
spin it that .................I made that claim
one way of you getting out of a hole I suppose |
? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:58 - Feb 9 with 3207 views | jeera |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:36 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
The same old lady who, if she finds hersekf in a nirsing home or hospital will be reliant upon thise immigrants.
Just a she will when using a checkout at her supermarket or postman etc
What has been sold to her and others is than somehow the UK will not need immigration if it leaves the EU. Yes, there will be far less employment so some/many might leave - but your example hardly stands up when so many in areas not affected by immigration voted to leave the EU.
And what is conveniently overlooked is that any deal with India. China etc will require a vast increase in immigration from those and similar countries.
Of course there is a much simpler solution, but I cannot see Tory voters accepting that. |
Bully's perfectly right in what he says.
Some areas there's been a more gradual integration but in other areas it's felt like an invasion.
If you haven't seen it then you wouldn't understand.
Cheaper property places, such as Thetford, have seen dramatic change over and again.
In the 90s [?] there was an influx of Chinese in Thetford which seemed to occur overnight. Not a few, hundreds of new people arriving.
Then Portuguese, again, in large numbers. In such a small place it literally seemed like an invasion. Entire pubs were taken over and became Portuguese only.
Eastern Europeans then arrived, again in vast numbers and shops popped up everywhere and it became like a mini Poland.
Of course if you're an inhabitant it's daunting.
The way immigration has been handled has had a massive impact on voters' choices in the referendum and subsequent election. |  |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:58 - Feb 9 with 3204 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |
Does this theoretical little old lady (I think it is probably a much broader range of individuals) feel the same about white youths speaking in modern slang?
Places change, some quicker than others. There is a hatred towards "others" that has been fed upon by the media and those promoting a "leave" agenda. |  |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:04 - Feb 9 with 3161 views | J2BLUE |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:58 - Feb 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Does this theoretical little old lady (I think it is probably a much broader range of individuals) feel the same about white youths speaking in modern slang?
Places change, some quicker than others. There is a hatred towards "others" that has been fed upon by the media and those promoting a "leave" agenda. |
People need to read what he wrote and think about it, rather than moving the goal posts or adding things in to change the question. He responded to the question asked and made an excellent point. It's all too rare these days to see anyone bother to be balanced. It doesn't mean your points are wrong, just that Sparks makes a great point. It's not all a 'fear of brown people' as so many like to say sneeringly (not you). |  |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:10 - Feb 9 with 3135 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |
Immigration isn’t alone in this. The internet was transformational, a combination of local planning failures and online shopping has similarly transformed town centres, government policy has resulted in huge changes to people’s well-being (especially those of the fringes). All bigger influences than immigration.
Bottom line is a lot of people don’t like change and a lot are distrustful of people who are different. Throw in a xenophobic media (and lately government) deliberately stirring the pot and it’s fairly clear why immigration is an issue.
A good indicator that this is a manufactured issue playing on people’s innate prejudices is that there is often less tolerance of foreigners where there are fewer of them. |  |
| |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:11 - Feb 9 with 3120 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |
Oops double post dodgy wifi [Post edited 9 Feb 2020 14:17]
| |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:12 - Feb 9 with 3111 views | jeera |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:04 - Feb 9 by J2BLUE |
People need to read what he wrote and think about it, rather than moving the goal posts or adding things in to change the question. He responded to the question asked and made an excellent point. It's all too rare these days to see anyone bother to be balanced. It doesn't mean your points are wrong, just that Sparks makes a great point. It's not all a 'fear of brown people' as so many like to say sneeringly (not you). |
Blair had no plan when he relaxed immigration.
He's an idealist who thinks everyone will just see everything his way eventually and everything will be some utopia, if only people would open their eyes and see things from his perspective.
As Bully says, there was little consideration on a human level how things would be perceived. But that's a politician trait isn't it - make changes with no concept of the implications in real terms. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:15 - Feb 9 with 3093 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:58 - Feb 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Does this theoretical little old lady (I think it is probably a much broader range of individuals) feel the same about white youths speaking in modern slang?
Places change, some quicker than others. There is a hatred towards "others" that has been fed upon by the media and those promoting a "leave" agenda. |
As with so much the reality is far from what is put out
Simply stopping EU immigration will merely see it replaced by non EU immigration so it will be a different language being heard.
The UK does not have a comprehensive and vigorous checking of who departs the UK so we have no idea who is here.
Most other EU countries enforce an EU directive "which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves."
Guess which country doesn't ?
So here we have the numpties taking an approach that has them appoint an arsonist to deal with their house fire - because he is keen of fire ! | | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:15 - Feb 9 with 3092 views | J2BLUE |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:12 - Feb 9 by jeera |
Blair had no plan when he relaxed immigration.
He's an idealist who thinks everyone will just see everything his way eventually and everything will be some utopia, if only people would open their eyes and see things from his perspective.
As Bully says, there was little consideration on a human level how things would be perceived. But that's a politician trait isn't it - make changes with no concept of the implications in real terms. |
Agree. Completely agree with the other points about the media etc but a little more understanding and a little less judgement might go a long way. Genuine racists excepted of course. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:18 - Feb 9 with 3068 views | BloomBlue |
Most people aren't anti immigration they are pro controlled immigration which are two completely different things.
Now you could argue even controlled immigration has failed. |  | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:19 - Feb 9 with 3056 views | jeera |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:10 - Feb 9 by Swansea_Blue |
Immigration isn’t alone in this. The internet was transformational, a combination of local planning failures and online shopping has similarly transformed town centres, government policy has resulted in huge changes to people’s well-being (especially those of the fringes). All bigger influences than immigration.
Bottom line is a lot of people don’t like change and a lot are distrustful of people who are different. Throw in a xenophobic media (and lately government) deliberately stirring the pot and it’s fairly clear why immigration is an issue.
A good indicator that this is a manufactured issue playing on people’s innate prejudices is that there is often less tolerance of foreigners where there are fewer of them. |
Yes, everything you say covers the more recent years Swanners, but initially it wasn't like that. The trends you're reciting have been happening since 2010 ish but back to the earlier 2000s there really were problems with how immigration was manifesting itself.
Different languages, cultures, being thrust onto people whose lives were settled.
For a while there was a knife culture that suddenly appeared in Bury, fights became a regular thing in some pockets of the town where landlords were taking advantage of the new situation, piling as many people into their properties as possible.
In places it became a social issue.
That is where the precedent was set and resentment began. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:22 - Feb 9 with 3030 views | jeera |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:15 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
As with so much the reality is far from what is put out
Simply stopping EU immigration will merely see it replaced by non EU immigration so it will be a different language being heard.
The UK does not have a comprehensive and vigorous checking of who departs the UK so we have no idea who is here.
Most other EU countries enforce an EU directive "which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves."
Guess which country doesn't ?
So here we have the numpties taking an approach that has them appoint an arsonist to deal with their house fire - because he is keen of fire ! |
There seems to be two entirely different conversations going on here. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:32 - Feb 9 with 2983 views | Darth_Koont |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 13:01 - Feb 9 by sparks |
Probably because the pace of immigration has changed the face of many towns significanlty over a short time, leaving people feeling alienated and disenfranchised in the places they grew up in or are attached to.
We may, logically, be able to reach the view that its not reasonable for the old lady walking through the market town on a Saturday morning to resent the immigrants,. However, I struggle to understand how people are unable to empathise with that on a human level. A place you know, becomes a place that feels very different, very quickly, and where many of the voices you hear are not speaking your language anymore inevitably and naturally creates feelings of fear, isolation and not- belonging. |
I get what you are saying but anybody who is old now has lived through enormous change over the past century.
Change is the constant in our lives. I agree immigration can appear to be the quickest and most visible change in certain small towns but I think this suggests that we've not managed that well as as a country, letting populists like Farage and decades of the Mail and Express single out the negatives of "foreigners" way out of proportion.
There's been more change in this country through the shift in our economy away from agriculture and manufacturing to a service economy even over the past 50 years. |  |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:39 - Feb 9 with 2958 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:04 - Feb 9 by J2BLUE |
People need to read what he wrote and think about it, rather than moving the goal posts or adding things in to change the question. He responded to the question asked and made an excellent point. It's all too rare these days to see anyone bother to be balanced. It doesn't mean your points are wrong, just that Sparks makes a great point. It's not all a 'fear of brown people' as so many like to say sneeringly (not you). |
A good point in that it gets cold when the temperature drops.....wow
Some people feel afraid. uncomfortable when night comes. Wow, that's a good point.....I think.
But if offers up little more than what is already known and an attempt to defend a pretty stupid response.
The UK is currently dependent on immigrant labour, It is not dependent upo immigrsnts per se. Requiring the UK state to make up your wages to pay rent etc should not be accepted as 'supporting yourself. Neither should the ' non economic active ' relatives be allowed to stay.
Simply allowing whole families to move to the UK under the belief that they can seetle here and be subsidised by the UK is absurd.
So why has nothing been done ? Who has been in power for this last decade ?
Why not address those points rather than stating the blindingly obvious as if it is a 'good point'. | | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:42 - Feb 9 with 2934 views | jeera |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:39 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
A good point in that it gets cold when the temperature drops.....wow
Some people feel afraid. uncomfortable when night comes. Wow, that's a good point.....I think.
But if offers up little more than what is already known and an attempt to defend a pretty stupid response.
The UK is currently dependent on immigrant labour, It is not dependent upo immigrsnts per se. Requiring the UK state to make up your wages to pay rent etc should not be accepted as 'supporting yourself. Neither should the ' non economic active ' relatives be allowed to stay.
Simply allowing whole families to move to the UK under the belief that they can seetle here and be subsidised by the UK is absurd.
So why has nothing been done ? Who has been in power for this last decade ?
Why not address those points rather than stating the blindingly obvious as if it is a 'good point'. |
You've become too invested in this Harry.
People are trying to have a conversation with you and each other.
It becomes a screaming match if you go down that route there. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:45 - Feb 9 with 2918 views | HARRY10 |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:22 - Feb 9 by jeera |
There seems to be two entirely different conversations going on here. |
Nope, they are the same.
To bleat about the level and concentration of immigration requires a response ie what has caused it and what can or should be done.
My response is thattrying to justify a xenophocic reaction will silly stuff does not addrees the problem or people's concerns. | | | |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:57 - Feb 9 with 2881 views | J2BLUE |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:45 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
Nope, they are the same.
To bleat about the level and concentration of immigration requires a response ie what has caused it and what can or should be done.
My response is thattrying to justify a xenophocic reaction will silly stuff does not addrees the problem or people's concerns. |
No one is trying to justify anything. It's a good point, however much you'd like to ignore it. | |
| |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 15:00 - Feb 9 with 2860 views | sparks |
| Supporters of anti-immigration policies... on 14:39 - Feb 9 by HARRY10 |
A good point in that it gets cold when the temperature drops.....wow
Some people feel afraid. uncomfortable when night comes. Wow, that's a good point.....I think.
But if offers up little more than what is already known and an attempt to defend a pretty stupid response.
The UK is currently dependent on immigrant labour, It is not dependent upo immigrsnts per se. Requiring the UK state to make up your wages to pay rent etc should not be accepted as 'supporting yourself. Neither should the ' non economic active ' relatives be allowed to stay.
Simply allowing whole families to move to the UK under the belief that they can seetle here and be subsidised by the UK is absurd.
So why has nothing been done ? Who has been in power for this last decade ?
Why not address those points rather than stating the blindingly obvious as if it is a 'good point'. |
Oh dear. Classic JC style idealism. A clear view of how it all should be- with no actual understanding of how human beings actually work. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
