| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:05 - Feb 20 with 3100 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 23:31 - Feb 19 by Lord_Lucan |
Wasn't the whole point of the argument about stopping the gangs? |
I did, finally, read the article that Chico linked yesterday (way too late, my bad) and, as you say, the focus was on the racketeering. For what it is worth it sounds like they supplied drugs more as the easiest option than as their chosen 'profession'. If they was more money in prostitution I expect they would have gone for that (not sure what that says about the libidos and moral qualities of Dawlish or the persuasive powers of Wearside pimps).
It was a familiar tale, the strange urban blight that afflicts a formerly thriving seaside resort seemed like something documented fifteen years ago about Hastings, Rhyl or, dare I say it, Felixstowe. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:27 - Feb 20 with 3077 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 03:35 - Feb 20 by HARRY10 |
Whereas in reality -
The OP and numerous posts demanded that dug users should feel guilty because of the harm caused to suppliers
yet filled this thread with whines and nonsense when measures to reduce harm to suppliers, and those who are victims of crimes to fund the usage of these drugs, are proposed
certainly smacks of rank hypocrisy to me |
You accused me of hypocrisy. Demonstrate that by reference to something I have actually said. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:29 - Feb 20 with 3077 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 03:37 - Feb 20 by HARRY10 |
actually no
it was (and is) bizarrely about certain users having to feel guilty about their use
hence the ridicule |
Explain why people should not acknowledge the harm caused and their part in it. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:36 - Feb 20 with 3063 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:05 - Feb 20 by WeWereZombies |
I did, finally, read the article that Chico linked yesterday (way too late, my bad) and, as you say, the focus was on the racketeering. For what it is worth it sounds like they supplied drugs more as the easiest option than as their chosen 'profession'. If they was more money in prostitution I expect they would have gone for that (not sure what that says about the libidos and moral qualities of Dawlish or the persuasive powers of Wearside pimps).
It was a familiar tale, the strange urban blight that afflicts a formerly thriving seaside resort seemed like something documented fifteen years ago about Hastings, Rhyl or, dare I say it, Felixstowe. |
The ringleader was a known criminal in Dawlish a good few years before he got involved with drugs. The issue is that drugs provide criminals with a lucrative market that they can exploit.
There are really only two ways to reduce the size of the illegal drug market. The first is to expect everyone, for the first time in human history, to just stop taking mind altering substances. If that's realistic then weay as well ban alcohol at the same time and just be done with it. The second option is to legalise and regulate the market as is currently the case with things like alcohol, tobacco, and prescribed drugs like methadone. As others have said, it won't completely kill the illegal market but it will greatly reduce it and with it the current levels of violence and exploitation associated with the drug market(s).
People tend to be against the latter on purely ideological grounds, they are somewhat squeamish about drugs in a way that they aren't about alcohol, even though alcohol would be a class B substance if it were introduced under current legislation. Alcohol is physically addictive in ways that things like cocaine, cannabis and MDMA aren't. Your body, rather than just your psyche, becomes dependent on it. The disinhibiting and depressive effects of alcohol are also more likely to lead to violent behaviour than the majority of illegal drugs. If people aren't against alcohol then they shouldn't really be anti other drugs. And if it's purely for practical reasons they don't think alcohol should be banned, then they should consider that there are good practical arguments for not continuing to prohibit other substances as well. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:36 - Feb 20 with 3064 views | NewcyBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:29 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Explain why people should not acknowledge the harm caused and their part in it. |
That could be said about any multitude of things.
- Their diets impact on the planet / use of animals
- Drivings impact on the planet
- Alcohol
- Tobacco
- Clothing / products made in sweatshops and factories with awful conditions
To name but a few.
I am by no means saying we shouldn’t acknowledge any of the above, we really should. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:41 - Feb 20 with 3056 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:36 - Feb 20 by NewcyBlue |
That could be said about any multitude of things.
- Their diets impact on the planet / use of animals
- Drivings impact on the planet
- Alcohol
- Tobacco
- Clothing / products made in sweatshops and factories with awful conditions
To name but a few.
I am by no means saying we shouldn’t acknowledge any of the above, we really should. |
Anyone supporting global capitalism, as Sparks does, is complicit in creating the conditions where young people in Colombia have no other option to escape poverty than to become involved in the illegal drug trade. He's also supporting a system that creates the kind of inequalities in this country that lead young people into gangs and criminality. He also supports a party whose austerity policies have massively ramped up that same gang culture by further entrenching social inequality and removing many of the safety nets that previously existed for young people. Basically, this is at least as much Sparks' fault as it is the man in a club dropping a pill or doing a line. I think this is all a deflection technique on Sparks' part to avoid taking responsibility. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:43 - Feb 20 with 3055 views | sparks |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:36 - Feb 20 by NewcyBlue |
That could be said about any multitude of things.
- Their diets impact on the planet / use of animals
- Drivings impact on the planet
- Alcohol
- Tobacco
- Clothing / products made in sweatshops and factories with awful conditions
To name but a few.
I am by no means saying we shouldn’t acknowledge any of the above, we really should. |
Absolutely. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:52 - Feb 20 with 3049 views | NewcyBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:41 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
Anyone supporting global capitalism, as Sparks does, is complicit in creating the conditions where young people in Colombia have no other option to escape poverty than to become involved in the illegal drug trade. He's also supporting a system that creates the kind of inequalities in this country that lead young people into gangs and criminality. He also supports a party whose austerity policies have massively ramped up that same gang culture by further entrenching social inequality and removing many of the safety nets that previously existed for young people. Basically, this is at least as much Sparks' fault as it is the man in a club dropping a pill or doing a line. I think this is all a deflection technique on Sparks' part to avoid taking responsibility. |
Come on Herbie,
I have an iPhone thing. How many of my clothes and electrical items were made in China / Sri Lanka / Pakistan etc.
It’s not for the quality of the work or materials used!
We all have to our acknowledge our part. The world is suffering. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:59 - Feb 20 with 3044 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:52 - Feb 20 by NewcyBlue |
Come on Herbie,
I have an iPhone thing. How many of my clothes and electrical items were made in China / Sri Lanka / Pakistan etc.
It’s not for the quality of the work or materials used!
We all have to our acknowledge our part. The world is suffering. |
Time to rage against the machine, mate. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:04 - Feb 20 with 3041 views | NewcyBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:59 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
Time to rage against the machine, mate. |
There really is a bit of a reset needed.
That thread about the young Derby lads was shocking too. Unfortunate that crunchie bit the dust on here, he was invited to tell Seb that his step mum should go back to the country she came from. Something he asserted should happen. I’ve already taught Seb when it is acceptable to physically assert yourself on someone. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:14 - Feb 20 with 3028 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:04 - Feb 20 by NewcyBlue |
There really is a bit of a reset needed.
That thread about the young Derby lads was shocking too. Unfortunate that crunchie bit the dust on here, he was invited to tell Seb that his step mum should go back to the country she came from. Something he asserted should happen. I’ve already taught Seb when it is acceptable to physically assert yourself on someone. |
I didn't see what happened on the Derby thread, but I'm not all that surprised it took a turn.
A lot of people aren't really seeing the benefits of rampant capitalism whilst those at the top are getting wealthier and wealthier. Politicians and the media are very good at displacing the angst that creates on to minority groups and other easy targets so that people don't think too much about the real source of their upset. It plays on some base prejudices that many sadly still hold and it helps to keep the wealthy in power. We do need a huge reset, there's no excuse for poverty anywhere in the world really. There's no excuse for the damage being done to the planet. The source of all this is the rampant, unchecked accumulation of wealth and. The veneration of big corporations who only care about their shareholders. Something has to change. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:34 - Feb 20 with 3002 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:14 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
I didn't see what happened on the Derby thread, but I'm not all that surprised it took a turn.
A lot of people aren't really seeing the benefits of rampant capitalism whilst those at the top are getting wealthier and wealthier. Politicians and the media are very good at displacing the angst that creates on to minority groups and other easy targets so that people don't think too much about the real source of their upset. It plays on some base prejudices that many sadly still hold and it helps to keep the wealthy in power. We do need a huge reset, there's no excuse for poverty anywhere in the world really. There's no excuse for the damage being done to the planet. The source of all this is the rampant, unchecked accumulation of wealth and. The veneration of big corporations who only care about their shareholders. Something has to change. |
An alternative view
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:35 - Feb 20 with 3009 views | NewcyBlue |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 08:14 - Feb 20 by Herbivore |
I didn't see what happened on the Derby thread, but I'm not all that surprised it took a turn.
A lot of people aren't really seeing the benefits of rampant capitalism whilst those at the top are getting wealthier and wealthier. Politicians and the media are very good at displacing the angst that creates on to minority groups and other easy targets so that people don't think too much about the real source of their upset. It plays on some base prejudices that many sadly still hold and it helps to keep the wealthy in power. We do need a huge reset, there's no excuse for poverty anywhere in the world really. There's no excuse for the damage being done to the planet. The source of all this is the rampant, unchecked accumulation of wealth and. The veneration of big corporations who only care about their shareholders. Something has to change. |
Unfortunately I play a massive part here.
I work for a massive corporation, driving the worlds biggest container ships to bring container loads of cr4p around the world.
I justify it to myself but it’s bollox really.
There will be much more ethical jobs out there, but they don’t pay the bills. I’m a limited man. I have however seen that I can have a good impact on my immediate community, so that’s what I do. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:00 - Feb 20 with 2991 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 17:24 - Feb 19 by HARRY10 |
Of course a govenment agency could not source and supply heroin cheaper than the black market..... except that it does. You think morphine is as expensive as the cost of street smack ?
It would not be a free for all as claimed above - any more than the prescribing of beta blockers is now. You would have to go through the same medical process as happens now with addicts
None of this is new or revolutionary, it is already happening to a fair degree - though sadly it also comes up against silly comments as above.
Cannabis is nothing similar on production, cost or any dependency. |
Harry, Harry, Harry, it does help if you actually read posts before responding. The reference to street prices vs legal prices was clearly in respect of recreational drugs rather than substances like heroin
However, ignoring the above, and also that heroin and morphine are not the same thing, I’d be interested to know what you’re basing your belief that morphine is cheaper than street smack on? Below NHS document re drug prices suggests the NHS pays c£5 for 0.01g of morphine - which compares incredibly unfavourably to street prices for heroin (c£5-10 for approx 0.1g)
You also haven’t addressed the point about not being a free for all - namely that this will in itself quite obviously drive a black market for those that are unable to get it via that process (or indeed get enough of it). Much the same way as happens now with morphine, funnily enough |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 09:36 - Feb 20 with 2973 views | WeWereZombies |
A couple of caveats on that article, well three actually as we have to acknowledge that it is a projection and open to challenges about data collection and interpretation, but:
1. The indicator of US$1.25 will not stay as a constant for a way of determining extreme poverty because of inflation, interest rates, currency fluctuation and so on.
2. The effects of climate change will probably stymie future progress as food costs rise, difficulties in finding shelter and employment increase, and energy generation becomes a tortured issue.
I haven't read the whole article yet, listening to 'In Our Time' at the moment but I might get round to it later. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:16 - Feb 20 with 2950 views | monytowbray |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:29 - Feb 20 by sparks |
Explain why people should not acknowledge the harm caused and their part in it. |
Remembering this one for your next input in a vegan discussion. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:33 - Feb 20 with 2927 views | Lord_Lucan |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 03:37 - Feb 20 by HARRY10 |
actually no
it was (and is) bizarrely about certain users having to feel guilty about their use
hence the ridicule |
Actually it was. It was about how recreational use is feeding the gangs and the violence associated with them.
The Portuguese model does nothing to stop this as you still have to score off the street.
I rest my case. |  |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:37 - Feb 20 with 2926 views | monytowbray |
CBA to read the lot of this but I expect the same old nonsense vs the sensible idea of a review of drug prohibition to...
...reduce gang activity
...stop young people getting sucked into the trade
...use the millions wasted fighting a losing battle against drugs to treat addicts
...bring in more tax revenue for the nation
...make drugs safer for users [Post edited 20 Feb 2020 21:25]
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 20:11 - Feb 20 with 2845 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 10:33 - Feb 20 by Lord_Lucan |
Actually it was. It was about how recreational use is feeding the gangs and the violence associated with them.
The Portuguese model does nothing to stop this as you still have to score off the street.
I rest my case. |
Agreed on the Portuguese situation, I had a couple of trips (yeh, could have chosen my words better there) last year and each time I saw back alley deals (i choose to walk the quickest route around cities and am adept at finding such alleys, not looking to score myself).
Comparing that to the decriminalisation in Jamaica I would say that the Jamaicans have got much closer to getting it right. I certainly saw a lot of grass being smoked in the month I was there but no one worried that I was not taking part (and I was involved in music making on the porch of a 'Rasta' house for a couple of days). You can go on tours of the small scale marijuana plantations for a few dollars and a guy from Berlin (hi, Chico) I was talking to enthused about how unadulterated the weed was, a refreshing change from the stuff he was used to in Germany which had all sorts of habit inducing crud mixed in. Thinking back on it now I realise that I saw not one iota of any drug use apart from cannabis, alcohol and tobacco.
One thing I did see, in Falmouth on the north coast of Jamaica where those ridiculous five thousand passenger cruise ships dock, was a young man being relieved of his stash by a very officious police officer whilst the aged rastafarians watching on got irate. Seems that decriminalisation does not extend to supplying American tourists, not that it looked like he had much to supply.
Have also watched the final programme of Simon Reeve's 'Caribbean' the other night where he finishes up in Jamaica where he covers the welcome reduction in violence and murder. Some of this seems to be due to using polygraph tests to weed (oh my poor use of language) out corrupt police officers. I am not convinced about the polygraph myself but the Jamaicans are doing something right. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 20:27 - Feb 20 with 2813 views | Lord_Lucan |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 20:11 - Feb 20 by WeWereZombies |
Agreed on the Portuguese situation, I had a couple of trips (yeh, could have chosen my words better there) last year and each time I saw back alley deals (i choose to walk the quickest route around cities and am adept at finding such alleys, not looking to score myself).
Comparing that to the decriminalisation in Jamaica I would say that the Jamaicans have got much closer to getting it right. I certainly saw a lot of grass being smoked in the month I was there but no one worried that I was not taking part (and I was involved in music making on the porch of a 'Rasta' house for a couple of days). You can go on tours of the small scale marijuana plantations for a few dollars and a guy from Berlin (hi, Chico) I was talking to enthused about how unadulterated the weed was, a refreshing change from the stuff he was used to in Germany which had all sorts of habit inducing crud mixed in. Thinking back on it now I realise that I saw not one iota of any drug use apart from cannabis, alcohol and tobacco.
One thing I did see, in Falmouth on the north coast of Jamaica where those ridiculous five thousand passenger cruise ships dock, was a young man being relieved of his stash by a very officious police officer whilst the aged rastafarians watching on got irate. Seems that decriminalisation does not extend to supplying American tourists, not that it looked like he had much to supply.
Have also watched the final programme of Simon Reeve's 'Caribbean' the other night where he finishes up in Jamaica where he covers the welcome reduction in violence and murder. Some of this seems to be due to using polygraph tests to weed (oh my poor use of language) out corrupt police officers. I am not convinced about the polygraph myself but the Jamaicans are doing something right. |
I saw a crazy program following the drug violence in Jamaica a few years back - mental stuff.
I'm going to Bolivia!
Definite info. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:39 - Feb 21 with 2722 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 20:27 - Feb 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I saw a crazy program following the drug violence in Jamaica a few years back - mental stuff.
I'm going to Bolivia!
Definite info. |
So after all that it turns out that even the places where it is decriminalised still have problems with gangs and the black market then?
Well there’s a surprise | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:52 - Feb 21 with 2722 views | monytowbray |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:39 - Feb 21 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
So after all that it turns out that even the places where it is decriminalised still have problems with gangs and the black market then?
Well there’s a surprise |
Jamaica still has illegal drugs by law though. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:07 - Feb 21 with 2712 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:52 - Feb 21 by monytowbray |
Jamaica still has illegal drugs by law though. |
And so has Portugal, US States with weed legal and pretty much anywhere that I’m aware of - but then so would the UK in a world where laws are relaxed and supply controlled, as per the discussion that’s been ongoing through this thread | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:21 - Feb 21 with 2708 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:39 - Feb 21 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
So after all that it turns out that even the places where it is decriminalised still have problems with gangs and the black market then?
Well there’s a surprise |
Well of course they do, problems rarely disappear overnight. The point is that since decriminalisation in 2015 they appear to have made impressive progress, it is still a place where it is easy to put a foot wrong but I found it a whole lot sweeter experience than I had expected. | |
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| If you buy illegal drugs on 07:55 - Feb 21 with 2696 views | Herbivore |
| If you buy illegal drugs on 06:39 - Feb 21 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
So after all that it turns out that even the places where it is decriminalised still have problems with gangs and the black market then?
Well there’s a surprise |
Decriminalisation and legalisation aren't the same thing. | |
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