| Police State? (n/t) 00:18 - Mar 25 with 6582 views | Oldsmoker |
This is the closest we've got to a Police state in my lifetime.
I always feared the Tories would do something like this.
Yet, they've given police unprecedented powers to arrest and fine people and it's a joke. People are just doing their thing and ignoring the authorities.
The Tories can't seem to do anything properly. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 0:22]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:39 - Mar 25 with 1912 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:19 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
I'm not, with most of it, tho think there needs to be a greater emphasis on getting something out for the self-employed quickly, with more blanket coverage, rather than necessarily a complete or fine-tuned system. Any complications can be sorted out later. The proportion of people getting money who don't need it is a small issue compared with the risk to those not getting it who do. Will also make it easier for people to take the decision to isolate instead of continuing to work.
Also just adding my thoughts to your comments about the economy. |
Got ya
Actually I genuinely think that the self employed were completely forgotten about but it looks like it is being addressed now. What I was trying to say was that if the announcement is tomorrow rather than today then so be it - if it needs to be further scrutinised.
On some accounts government is criticised because the detail isn't clear (necessary / essential work etc) and then they are also criticised for not coming out with things quick enough.
By nature I am anti establishment but on this occasion I am actually putting my trust in them and accepting the almost impossible situation they are facing.
Edit. The next thing will be "Where's my money". I can't see this happening overnight, I could be wrong but can you imagine the amount of work needing to be done here? [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 11:42]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:43 - Mar 25 with 1906 views | StokieBlue |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:36 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
They might do, but it is likely their income will not have been reduced, they won't have deferred payments to catch up with (e.g. mortgages), nor will they have had the stress and uncertainty of not knowing how their finances are going to be covered.
Given a proportion of those are among the most precarious and lowest paid (e.g. supermarket staff, takeaway delivery people), then itr is perhaps not an unfair rebalancing.
UBI would be tricky, as cost of living varies so much around the country and across different groups. I would be fine on £1k per month, that probably wouldn't cover your rent in London or central Manchester, or payments if you have a large mortgage. Also, it gets very expensive if stretching longer than three or four months. |
"Given a proportion of those are among the most precarious and lowest paid (e.g. supermarket staff, takeaway delivery people), then itr is perhaps not an unfair rebalancing."
But surely that isn't right?
Supermarket staff and hospital cleaners are still working whilst office workers in non-essential roles are at home getting at least 80% of their income which is probably more than the supermarket staff are making full time. They will also be entitled to a mortgage break whilst the supermarket staff aren't. I understand that the staff mentioned won't be losing any of their normal income but they still might not be best pleased when they think about it all in a few months time.
Deferred mortgage payments don't have to be caught up with until the end of the mortgage term so I am not sure that's relevant. It just means your mortgage is a few months longer than it was before.
Am only playing devils advocate here - fully agree that the government had to do something and was very short on time. It still needs to do something for self-employed. Overall I think the government response on workers pay has been pretty good given the short timescales with the obvious caveat that they need to sort out the self-employed.
SB [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 11:46]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:53 - Mar 25 with 1870 views | Guthrum |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:39 - Mar 25 by Lord_Lucan |
Got ya
Actually I genuinely think that the self employed were completely forgotten about but it looks like it is being addressed now. What I was trying to say was that if the announcement is tomorrow rather than today then so be it - if it needs to be further scrutinised.
On some accounts government is criticised because the detail isn't clear (necessary / essential work etc) and then they are also criticised for not coming out with things quick enough.
By nature I am anti establishment but on this occasion I am actually putting my trust in them and accepting the almost impossible situation they are facing.
Edit. The next thing will be "Where's my money". I can't see this happening overnight, I could be wrong but can you imagine the amount of work needing to be done here? [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 11:42]
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Yes, all of that is going to be a nightmare. Especially if the Government tries nit-picking after the crisis has passed.
A day or so makes little difference, as long as something (adequate) is definitely in the pipeline.
I'm not inclined to be particularly critical of the Government, given the unprecedented scale, speed and complexity of this situation, combined with the paucity of relible and well-analysed data. They're somewhat muddling through, but that's all anyone can do under the circumstances. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 12:03 - Mar 25 with 1860 views | Guthrum |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:43 - Mar 25 by StokieBlue |
"Given a proportion of those are among the most precarious and lowest paid (e.g. supermarket staff, takeaway delivery people), then itr is perhaps not an unfair rebalancing."
But surely that isn't right?
Supermarket staff and hospital cleaners are still working whilst office workers in non-essential roles are at home getting at least 80% of their income which is probably more than the supermarket staff are making full time. They will also be entitled to a mortgage break whilst the supermarket staff aren't. I understand that the staff mentioned won't be losing any of their normal income but they still might not be best pleased when they think about it all in a few months time.
Deferred mortgage payments don't have to be caught up with until the end of the mortgage term so I am not sure that's relevant. It just means your mortgage is a few months longer than it was before.
Am only playing devils advocate here - fully agree that the government had to do something and was very short on time. It still needs to do something for self-employed. Overall I think the government response on workers pay has been pretty good given the short timescales with the obvious caveat that they need to sort out the self-employed.
SB [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 11:46]
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That's not a lot different to, under normal circumsatnces, someone who does a 12-hour overnight shift stacking shelves being jealous of others who get a lot more money for doing a comfortable daytime seven hours of manipulating spreadsheets, playing with graphics packages and talking to clients on the phone. It's the eternal imbalance of the valuation of labour.
I'm sure the latter category sometimes wish they were doing something which required less brain strain, tight deadlines and awkward client dealings.
There's no easy answer to this issue, other than a fundamental philosophical change in the approach of modern capitalism. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 12:29 - Mar 25 with 1837 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 12:03 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
That's not a lot different to, under normal circumsatnces, someone who does a 12-hour overnight shift stacking shelves being jealous of others who get a lot more money for doing a comfortable daytime seven hours of manipulating spreadsheets, playing with graphics packages and talking to clients on the phone. It's the eternal imbalance of the valuation of labour.
I'm sure the latter category sometimes wish they were doing something which required less brain strain, tight deadlines and awkward client dealings.
There's no easy answer to this issue, other than a fundamental philosophical change in the approach of modern capitalism. |
I can confirm, through a conversation with my neighbour who works there (just before lock down before anyone asks), that workers at my local Co-operative (which was one of only two in the United Kingdom to actually require overnight work) are under more pressure than they have ever been and they have the toughest job in the store at the moment. And that is after you take into account for check out staff the stupid attitudes of some customers at the moment. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 12:36 - Mar 25 with 1820 views | StokieBlue |
| Police State? (n/t) on 12:29 - Mar 25 by WeWereZombies |
I can confirm, through a conversation with my neighbour who works there (just before lock down before anyone asks), that workers at my local Co-operative (which was one of only two in the United Kingdom to actually require overnight work) are under more pressure than they have ever been and they have the toughest job in the store at the moment. And that is after you take into account for check out staff the stupid attitudes of some customers at the moment. |
It must be a very hard job at the moment. I can imagine it's incredibly stressful.
Did you ask them how they feel being under all that stress and still working long shifts for their normal pay whilst someone is at home watching box sets on a minimum of 80% pay?
That was the point I was trying to make and doesn't seem to have been very clear in my posts for some reason.
As I said though, I fully understand why we are in this situation and it was the right thing for the government to do. It just seems to penalise the already low-paid and stressed a bit more than the middle class office workers. There is no solution though and perhaps I am playing devils advocate a bit too much. It's a hard and stressful time for everyone.
Perhaps those cited as key workers could have had their income taxed waived for a few months - we are taking on enough debt anyway, it won't matter in the long run.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 19:43 - Mar 25 with 1755 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 09:25 - Mar 25 by Swansea_Blue |
He's not a fascist, but he's happy to be associated with people and act in a way that has a little bit of a whiff of fascism about them - Bannon for one. Wanting to reduce the influence of law over the executive as another (proposed judicial changes). Operating outside the law as a third (illegally closing Parliament). Blatant lying (propaganda) as a fourth.
My education on political ideologies wasn't the best, but I don't recall anything about demonising foreigners and wanting to operate outside the rule of law in classical libertarian. I don't think he's ideological enough to be categorised as anything. Boris isn't that complicated - he'll do whatever he has to to climb the greasy pole. That's the way he seems to me anyway. Many of the dodgy things he's done probably aren't even his own ideas; his own ambition makes him a useful vessel for others with darker motives. I think that makes him utterly untrustworthy (it's crazy really - we have 2 people in the cabinet who our secret services wouldn't' trust with sensitive information, including the PM).
(And in answer to the OP, no we're not a police state. I'd level the same response to the assumed CIL on the other thread; there have been a whole raft of increasing freedoms introduced in the UK over the last few decades. Be that the freedoms around gay rights, to the more obvious simple stuff like freedoms to live & work linked to our former EU membership - not the best example this year, granted, but we haven't been living in a society where our freedoms have only ever been taken away. |
Sorry, probably coming across like someone who corrects people on grammar.
Theories
Classical liberalism - Locke, Malthus, Ricardo, Smith, etc.
Libertarianism - Born from left-wing anarchism and would include anarchists as key Libertarians - Godwin, Proudhon, Kropotkin, Bookchin. You could also put in some American Trancendentalists like Thoreau who championed civil disobedience against the state.
Not a theory
Classical libertarianism - type in Google and it will auto correct to classical liberalism |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 20:16 - Mar 25 with 1741 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 19:43 - Mar 25 by Kropotkin123 |
Sorry, probably coming across like someone who corrects people on grammar.
Theories
Classical liberalism - Locke, Malthus, Ricardo, Smith, etc.
Libertarianism - Born from left-wing anarchism and would include anarchists as key Libertarians - Godwin, Proudhon, Kropotkin, Bookchin. You could also put in some American Trancendentalists like Thoreau who championed civil disobedience against the state.
Not a theory
Classical libertarianism - type in Google and it will auto correct to classical liberalism |
Are you sure you want to make a list of libertarians without including Robert Nozick? | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 20:24 - Mar 25 with 1733 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 20:16 - Mar 25 by WeWereZombies |
Are you sure you want to make a list of libertarians without including Robert Nozick? |
I was generally listing older classical liberals and libertarians. Bookchin I referenced earlier, so mentioned him again.
There are many theorists that are omitted. Four people is not intended to be a complete list, just a reference point for understanding the differences of the ideas. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 21:37 - Mar 25 with 1712 views | jaykay |
all i can see is capitalism doesn't work in a crisis, but some form of socialism does. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 22:28 - Mar 25 with 1688 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 20:24 - Mar 25 by Kropotkin123 |
I was generally listing older classical liberals and libertarians. Bookchin I referenced earlier, so mentioned him again.
There are many theorists that are omitted. Four people is not intended to be a complete list, just a reference point for understanding the differences of the ideas. |
'There are many theorists that are omitted.'
Yep, almost all the important ones:
https://www.adamsmith.org/ten-books-every-libertarian-should-read | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 08:58 - Mar 26 with 1638 views | Kropotkin123 |
Half of those in that list are classical liberals...
Being a good book for a libertarian is not the same as being a libertarian
Libertarianism - People - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Adrews, Armand, Bakunin, Berkman, Bookchin, Carson, Cleyre, Chomsky, Déjacque, Durruti, Ferrer, Magón, Galleani, Godwin, Goldman, Goodman, Graeber, Greene, Hodgskin, Kropotkin, La Boétie, Landauer, Long, Makhno, Malatesta, Michel, Most, Paterson, Margall, Proudhon, Rocker, Spooner, Stirner, Thoreau, Tolstoy, Tucker, Voline, Warren
* Note, BankersDebtSlave yesterday said about the right-wing libertarians and at first glance, I don't see them represented here, so I assume they have their own page. He is correct that they exist under this branch, with particular prominence in the USA.
Classical Liberalism - People - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Acton, Alain, Alberdi, Alembert, Arnold, Aron, Barante, Bastiat, Bentham, Berlin, Beveridge, Bobbio, Brentano, Bright, Broglie, Burke, ÄŒapek, Cassirer, Chicherin, Chu, Chydenius, Cobden, Collingdood, Condorcet, Constant, Croce, Cuoco, Dahrendorf, Decy, Dewey, Dickens, Diderot, Dongsun, Dunoyer, Dworkin, Emerson, Eötvös, Flach, Friedman, Galbraith, Garrison, George, Gladstone, Gobetti, Gomes, Gray, Green, Gu, Guizot, Hayek, Herbert, Hobbes, Hobhouse, Hobson, Holbach, Hu, Humboldt, Jefferson, Jubani, Kant, Kelsen, Kemal, Keynes, Korais, Korwin-Mikke, Kymplcka, Lamartine, Larra, Lecky, Li, Locke, Lufti, Macaulay, Madariaga, Madison, Martineau, Masani, Michelet, Mill (father), Mill (son), Milton, Mises, Molteno, Mommsen, Money, Montalembert, Montesquieu, Mora, Mouffe, Naoroji, Naumann, Nozick, Nussbaum, Ohlin, Ortega, Paine, Paton, Popper, Price, Priestley, Prieto, Quesnay, Qin, RamÃrez, Rathenau, Rawls, Raz, Renan, Renouvier, Ricardo, Röpke, Rorthy, Rosmini, Rosselli, Rousseau, Ruggiero, Sarmiento, Say, Sen, Earl of Shaftesbury, Shklar, Sidney, Sieyès, Åžinasi, Sismondi, Smith, Soto Polar, Spencer, Spinoza, Staël, Sumner, Tahtawi, Tao, Thierry, Thorbecke, Thoreau, Tocqueville, Tracy, Troeltsch, Turgot, Villemain, Voltaire, Ward, Weber, Wollstonecraft, Zambrano
As I said before, some trancedentalists could be considered libertarian, which is why they have Thoreau in both. There is cross-over. a key difference between many classical liberals is that they distrust a big state, but still see it as necessary. Whereas the Libertarians usually seek alternatives (Bakunin, etc) or justify action in opposition to the state when they don't believe it is acting in the interest of the people ( Thoreau, etc).
Also, I know people don't like their wiki links - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-Ideologies-Introduction-Andrew-Heywood/dp/023 - So here is a link to a book by Andrew Heywood. This should be people's first port of call when it comes to political ideologies. You can look inside the first few pages and see libertarianism under anarchism, and you can see classical liberalism under liberalism. [Post edited 26 Mar 2020 9:31]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:09 - Mar 26 with 1610 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 08:58 - Mar 26 by Kropotkin123 |
Half of those in that list are classical liberals...
Being a good book for a libertarian is not the same as being a libertarian
Libertarianism - People - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Adrews, Armand, Bakunin, Berkman, Bookchin, Carson, Cleyre, Chomsky, Déjacque, Durruti, Ferrer, Magón, Galleani, Godwin, Goldman, Goodman, Graeber, Greene, Hodgskin, Kropotkin, La Boétie, Landauer, Long, Makhno, Malatesta, Michel, Most, Paterson, Margall, Proudhon, Rocker, Spooner, Stirner, Thoreau, Tolstoy, Tucker, Voline, Warren
* Note, BankersDebtSlave yesterday said about the right-wing libertarians and at first glance, I don't see them represented here, so I assume they have their own page. He is correct that they exist under this branch, with particular prominence in the USA.
Classical Liberalism - People - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
Acton, Alain, Alberdi, Alembert, Arnold, Aron, Barante, Bastiat, Bentham, Berlin, Beveridge, Bobbio, Brentano, Bright, Broglie, Burke, ÄŒapek, Cassirer, Chicherin, Chu, Chydenius, Cobden, Collingdood, Condorcet, Constant, Croce, Cuoco, Dahrendorf, Decy, Dewey, Dickens, Diderot, Dongsun, Dunoyer, Dworkin, Emerson, Eötvös, Flach, Friedman, Galbraith, Garrison, George, Gladstone, Gobetti, Gomes, Gray, Green, Gu, Guizot, Hayek, Herbert, Hobbes, Hobhouse, Hobson, Holbach, Hu, Humboldt, Jefferson, Jubani, Kant, Kelsen, Kemal, Keynes, Korais, Korwin-Mikke, Kymplcka, Lamartine, Larra, Lecky, Li, Locke, Lufti, Macaulay, Madariaga, Madison, Martineau, Masani, Michelet, Mill (father), Mill (son), Milton, Mises, Molteno, Mommsen, Money, Montalembert, Montesquieu, Mora, Mouffe, Naoroji, Naumann, Nozick, Nussbaum, Ohlin, Ortega, Paine, Paton, Popper, Price, Priestley, Prieto, Quesnay, Qin, RamÃrez, Rathenau, Rawls, Raz, Renan, Renouvier, Ricardo, Röpke, Rorthy, Rosmini, Rosselli, Rousseau, Ruggiero, Sarmiento, Say, Sen, Earl of Shaftesbury, Shklar, Sidney, Sieyès, Åžinasi, Sismondi, Smith, Soto Polar, Spencer, Spinoza, Staël, Sumner, Tahtawi, Tao, Thierry, Thorbecke, Thoreau, Tocqueville, Tracy, Troeltsch, Turgot, Villemain, Voltaire, Ward, Weber, Wollstonecraft, Zambrano
As I said before, some trancedentalists could be considered libertarian, which is why they have Thoreau in both. There is cross-over. a key difference between many classical liberals is that they distrust a big state, but still see it as necessary. Whereas the Libertarians usually seek alternatives (Bakunin, etc) or justify action in opposition to the state when they don't believe it is acting in the interest of the people ( Thoreau, etc).
Also, I know people don't like their wiki links - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-Ideologies-Introduction-Andrew-Heywood/dp/023 - So here is a link to a book by Andrew Heywood. This should be people's first port of call when it comes to political ideologies. You can look inside the first few pages and see libertarianism under anarchism, and you can see classical liberalism under liberalism. [Post edited 26 Mar 2020 9:31]
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Much as I find Wikipedia useful it does have its limitations, or the limitations could be the dogmatic adherence to classification. A list of liberal philosophers that does not include John Rawls! Although it does include Amartya Sen at least. Wikipedia classify him as social liberalism but I think anyone who as read, studied 'A Theory of Justice', in detail will know that Rawls position as the major Twentieth Century liberal thinker was due to his willingness to tackle Marxist ideology head on, so he revived classical liberalism with indefatigable reasoning and challenging thought experiment. Sen, who with Nozick, was one of the 'big three' at Harvard mainly complemented Rawls (in my opinion) with his economic criticism. Nozick may have been American (as was Rawls) but that did not stop him bringing a paradigm shift to libertarian position that equals the impact Rawls had upon Marxism; it is almost certainly the work that empowers the minimal state thinking of much right wing (and some left wing) ideology that grips most of the Republican Party and can be seen spreading to The Philippines, Brazil, Hungary, Poland and other states. Ignore it (good as well as bad points) at your peril. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:15 - Mar 26 with 1604 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:09 - Mar 26 by WeWereZombies |
Much as I find Wikipedia useful it does have its limitations, or the limitations could be the dogmatic adherence to classification. A list of liberal philosophers that does not include John Rawls! Although it does include Amartya Sen at least. Wikipedia classify him as social liberalism but I think anyone who as read, studied 'A Theory of Justice', in detail will know that Rawls position as the major Twentieth Century liberal thinker was due to his willingness to tackle Marxist ideology head on, so he revived classical liberalism with indefatigable reasoning and challenging thought experiment. Sen, who with Nozick, was one of the 'big three' at Harvard mainly complemented Rawls (in my opinion) with his economic criticism. Nozick may have been American (as was Rawls) but that did not stop him bringing a paradigm shift to libertarian position that equals the impact Rawls had upon Marxism; it is almost certainly the work that empowers the minimal state thinking of much right wing (and some left wing) ideology that grips most of the Republican Party and can be seen spreading to The Philippines, Brazil, Hungary, Poland and other states. Ignore it (good as well as bad points) at your peril. |
Lol....my thoughts entirely...I think....who knows! |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:30 - Mar 26 with 1588 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:09 - Mar 26 by WeWereZombies |
Much as I find Wikipedia useful it does have its limitations, or the limitations could be the dogmatic adherence to classification. A list of liberal philosophers that does not include John Rawls! Although it does include Amartya Sen at least. Wikipedia classify him as social liberalism but I think anyone who as read, studied 'A Theory of Justice', in detail will know that Rawls position as the major Twentieth Century liberal thinker was due to his willingness to tackle Marxist ideology head on, so he revived classical liberalism with indefatigable reasoning and challenging thought experiment. Sen, who with Nozick, was one of the 'big three' at Harvard mainly complemented Rawls (in my opinion) with his economic criticism. Nozick may have been American (as was Rawls) but that did not stop him bringing a paradigm shift to libertarian position that equals the impact Rawls had upon Marxism; it is almost certainly the work that empowers the minimal state thinking of much right wing (and some left wing) ideology that grips most of the Republican Party and can be seen spreading to The Philippines, Brazil, Hungary, Poland and other states. Ignore it (good as well as bad points) at your peril. |
Rawls is in the classical liberal section, or have I misunderstood the point you were making? Are you arguing he should also be in the libertarianism along with Nozick?
There is going to be cross-over. For example, I also think of Emerson has a great contributor to Libertarianism. I mean, he wrote a book on Self-reliance!
But, we are massively side-tracked now. Main point is, no such thing as classical libertarianism. People using the term mean classical liberalism. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:46 - Mar 26 with 1581 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:30 - Mar 26 by Kropotkin123 |
Rawls is in the classical liberal section, or have I misunderstood the point you were making? Are you arguing he should also be in the libertarianism along with Nozick?
There is going to be cross-over. For example, I also think of Emerson has a great contributor to Libertarianism. I mean, he wrote a book on Self-reliance!
But, we are massively side-tracked now. Main point is, no such thing as classical libertarianism. People using the term mean classical liberalism. |
Yes, I do note that the post has been edited, I should have done a Glasgow Blue and copied it pronto, shouldn't I?
No, Rawls should not be in the classical Libertarianism box. Although he. Sen and Nozick enjoyed a very friendly rivalry they were all very distinct.
I do not see it as side tracking to put forward the viewpoint that Nozick is the most significant Libertarian thinker to date. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:51 - Mar 26 with 1563 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:46 - Mar 26 by WeWereZombies |
Yes, I do note that the post has been edited, I should have done a Glasgow Blue and copied it pronto, shouldn't I?
No, Rawls should not be in the classical Libertarianism box. Although he. Sen and Nozick enjoyed a very friendly rivalry they were all very distinct.
I do not see it as side tracking to put forward the viewpoint that Nozick is the most significant Libertarian thinker to date. |
It is this that I have an issue with "classical libertarianism" - Classical libertarianism isn't a thing. There is no subsection of political theory called classical libertarianism. There is no "classical libertarian box".
You are free to choose whether Rawls is a classical liberal or a Libertarian. I don't have a strong feeling on this either way. And if you feel passionate to argue Nozick should be in Libertarianism, I'm not going to disagree with you. Sure, if you start calling someone like Ricardo a Libertarian, I'll politely agree to disagree.
My point is simply that Classical Libertarianism doesn't exist as a sub-section of political theory. [Post edited 26 Mar 2020 11:52]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 13:07 - Mar 26 with 1550 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Police State? (n/t) on 21:37 - Mar 25 by jaykay |
all i can see is capitalism doesn't work in a crisis, but some form of socialism does. |
That's not socialism, its totalitarianism/authoritarianism . China is barely a socialist nation any more. |  | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 13:18 - Mar 26 with 1536 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Police State? (n/t) on 13:07 - Mar 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That's not socialism, its totalitarianism/authoritarianism . China is barely a socialist nation any more. |
See also Italy for more liberal socialism and how that's worked out...
the pint is this virus affects everyone - politics is irrelevant whatever side of the spectrum you are on. | | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 16:05 - Mar 26 with 1499 views | jaykay |
| Police State? (n/t) on 13:07 - Mar 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That's not socialism, its totalitarianism/authoritarianism . China is barely a socialist nation any more. |
i thought we were on lock down and you come out. or did you come on to give your alter ego some uppies yep just checked load of uppies for ? ?
your next post at the end is very much like your alter ego posted the other day [Post edited 26 Mar 2020 16:29]
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| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 16:09 - Mar 26 with 1497 views | Sharkey |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:36 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
They might do, but it is likely their income will not have been reduced, they won't have deferred payments to catch up with (e.g. mortgages), nor will they have had the stress and uncertainty of not knowing how their finances are going to be covered.
Given a proportion of those are among the most precarious and lowest paid (e.g. supermarket staff, takeaway delivery people), then itr is perhaps not an unfair rebalancing.
UBI would be tricky, as cost of living varies so much around the country and across different groups. I would be fine on £1k per month, that probably wouldn't cover your rent in London or central Manchester, or payments if you have a large mortgage. Also, it gets very expensive if stretching longer than three or four months. |
Is the right place for a somewhat jaded 'Don't Stand So Close Me' quip? |  | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 16:21 - Mar 26 with 1487 views | Leaky |
I'm just grateful I'm not in isolation with you !! |  | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 16:45 - Mar 26 with 1461 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Police State? (n/t) on 16:05 - Mar 26 by jaykay |
i thought we were on lock down and you come out. or did you come on to give your alter ego some uppies yep just checked load of uppies for ? ?
your next post at the end is very much like your alter ego posted the other day [Post edited 26 Mar 2020 16:29]
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ok mate | | | |
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