| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after 09:39 - Mar 28 with 10430 views | BrixtonBlue |
itself. Whenever the human population is soaring too high a new disease comes along to knock them down a bit. Now, with pollution at all time highs, people protesting in the streets about it but governments slow to react or in denial, then suddenly we have this virus that has drastically slashed travel and the pollution that comes with it. Meanwhile, scientists discover a bacterium that eats plastic, a substance that can't easily be recycled, which has been mounting up to the tune of 8bn tonnes, and which has only been around since the 50's.
Is my imagination running away with itself or is there something bigger than us at work here? |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:55 - Mar 28 with 4581 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:30 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
It's really not weird and perfectly explainable.
If you want to believe it's god then that is entirely your choice and go ahead. If you want to understand the science then there are plenty of good sources out there which don't invoke mysticism to explain it.
A virus cannot determine to cut pollution. That is simply the result of it evolving a successful infection vector and thus making us all stay inside.
SB |
I don't want to believe it's God. I said SOME might use it to cite a god. Just because I wrote something doesn't make it my opinion. | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:57 - Mar 28 with 4566 views | StokieBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:52 - Mar 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I get what you're saying but the suggestion that bacteria has evolved to exploit plastic can't be right, surely? Things evolve over millions of years, not 60 odd!
I also didn't say anything about intelligence. You've ascribed that. I'm suggesting something 'built in' to evolution, like a safety net, in order to keep the ecological balance.
I'd like to add, for clarity, I'm not saying I think this is all fact. I'm playing with an idea/playing devil's advocate to the mainstream. |
"I get what you're saying but the suggestion that bacteria has evolved to exploit plastic can't be right, surely? Things evolve over millions of years, not 60 odd!"
This is incorrect. Mammals and complex creatures evolve over hundreds of thousands and millions of years. Bacteria and viruses evolve incredibly quickly because they are less complex and divide regularly allowing for more mutations. C-19 is evolving and mutating even since it's emergence 3 months ago.
"I also didn't say anything about intelligence. You've ascribed that. I'm suggesting something 'built in' to evolution, like a safety net, in order to keep the ecological balance."
This once again implies intelligence though. There is no safety net because everything is an independent process exploiting independent niches.
Why would you want to play "devils advocate to the mainstream" without any evidence at all? All you are doing is giving people something to latch onto which is incorrect.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 13:57]
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:59 - Mar 28 with 4555 views | footers |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:55 - Mar 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I don't want to believe it's God. I said SOME might use it to cite a god. Just because I wrote something doesn't make it my opinion. |
Are you sure? If you come down tomorrow there'll be your choice of orange or blackcurrant squash. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:59 - Mar 28 with 4555 views | NthQldITFC |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:21 - Mar 28 by The_Last_Baron |
The world's population is not four billion too high. This notion that the planet can only provide for so many people is nonsense. The standard of living in the world is the highest it's ever been yet the population is the highest it's ever been. |
And yet at the same time according to all the evidence, we're on the brink of, or already past a tipping point of climate collapse. Then the much vaunted standard of living won't seem so high for the ten billion plus humans, let alone the other species we share the planet with.
A finite planet can only provide for so many people, to think otherwise is clearly nonsense. Even if you would be content in a world where every square millimetre is dedicated to feeding an ever increasing mass of humanity, there logically comes a point where you can't squeeze another human in. So when do you stop? |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:04 - Mar 28 with 4536 views | ghostofescobar |
Mother Nature isn’t doing a very good job then. The population and pollution just keeps going up, no matter what virus’s or bacteria have been thrown at us. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:35 - Mar 28 with 4510 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:57 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
"I get what you're saying but the suggestion that bacteria has evolved to exploit plastic can't be right, surely? Things evolve over millions of years, not 60 odd!"
This is incorrect. Mammals and complex creatures evolve over hundreds of thousands and millions of years. Bacteria and viruses evolve incredibly quickly because they are less complex and divide regularly allowing for more mutations. C-19 is evolving and mutating even since it's emergence 3 months ago.
"I also didn't say anything about intelligence. You've ascribed that. I'm suggesting something 'built in' to evolution, like a safety net, in order to keep the ecological balance."
This once again implies intelligence though. There is no safety net because everything is an independent process exploiting independent niches.
Why would you want to play "devils advocate to the mainstream" without any evidence at all? All you are doing is giving people something to latch onto which is incorrect.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 13:57]
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I think you're ascribing more seriousness to this topic than was intended. | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:39 - Mar 28 with 4502 views | WD19 |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:21 - Mar 28 by The_Last_Baron |
The world's population is not four billion too high. This notion that the planet can only provide for so many people is nonsense. The standard of living in the world is the highest it's ever been yet the population is the highest it's ever been. |
It’s not sustainable though, is is Baron.
I am not an enviro-mentalist, but it is clear we are taking out more than we are putting in. That can’t last. Even allowing for technological miracles. |  | | |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:41 - Mar 28 with 4500 views | StokieBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:35 - Mar 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I think you're ascribing more seriousness to this topic than was intended. |
You asked an initial question and then you said I couldn't be right in my assertion about bacteria evolving as the time scales were too short.
I just answered them. You felt the need to take it seriously enough to reply and question the validity of the science of my point.
My final point still stands - some people will take it seriously and will believe it's a valid point. That is the way of the world nowadays.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 14:43]
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:50 - Mar 28 with 4484 views | Ryorry |
I said pretty much that couple of weeks ago (edit:- meaning in the sense of nature balancing itself, not a matter of "design"). [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 14:54]
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:57 - Mar 28 with 4468 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:41 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
You asked an initial question and then you said I couldn't be right in my assertion about bacteria evolving as the time scales were too short.
I just answered them. You felt the need to take it seriously enough to reply and question the validity of the science of my point.
My final point still stands - some people will take it seriously and will believe it's a valid point. That is the way of the world nowadays.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 14:43]
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I take your point about bacteria.
My line about seriousness was responding to the end of that post. I think anyone taking my stuff seriously and believing it a valid point wants their head reading. | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 15:03 - Mar 28 with 4458 views | StokieBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:57 - Mar 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I take your point about bacteria.
My line about seriousness was responding to the end of that post. I think anyone taking my stuff seriously and believing it a valid point wants their head reading. |
Fair enough then :).
Unfortunately there will be some, maybe not on here but if you posted the same thing on Twitter or FB you'd reel them in.
SB | | | |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 15:08 - Mar 28 with 4446 views | StokieBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 14:50 - Mar 28 by Ryorry |
I said pretty much that couple of weeks ago (edit:- meaning in the sense of nature balancing itself, not a matter of "design"). [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 14:54]
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The thing is nature doesn't always balance itself. It can reach an equilibrium within the current parameters and within that evolution takes over which can lead to further balance (ie. plants taking in CO2 and expiring O whilst other life does the opposite).
For example, take Venus. It probably used to be like the Earth with oceans and is now a literal example of hell with 450C surface temperatures and a runaway greenhouse effect. All of that was achieved by nature, without interference from humans.
Things are even worse of course with us around as our intelligence gives us the method to totally disregard any balance there may have been. In general though you do have a good point around evolution meaning that all niches are filled and that brings balance.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 15:09]
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:37 - Mar 28 with 4410 views | Ryorry |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 15:08 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
The thing is nature doesn't always balance itself. It can reach an equilibrium within the current parameters and within that evolution takes over which can lead to further balance (ie. plants taking in CO2 and expiring O whilst other life does the opposite).
For example, take Venus. It probably used to be like the Earth with oceans and is now a literal example of hell with 450C surface temperatures and a runaway greenhouse effect. All of that was achieved by nature, without interference from humans.
Things are even worse of course with us around as our intelligence gives us the method to totally disregard any balance there may have been. In general though you do have a good point around evolution meaning that all niches are filled and that brings balance.
SB [Post edited 28 Mar 2020 15:09]
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I meant in the sense of how, eg, fox (or whatever) populations in their local habitat will rise or fall according to the food that's available; or how, e.g. re-wilding just happens naturally when humankind stops intervening in any area ((best analogies I can think of right now, pushed for time).
It was humankind pushing nature's boundaries by crowding one species of bat taken from the wild, up against another kind of bat in open cages in an open market, when the 2 species would never meet naturally in the wild, then introducing large crowds of humans onto the scene, that caused this virus to transmit as rapidly as it did - perfect conditions from the virus' point of view! (according to doctor on R5l bout an hour ago).
I'm no expert on Venus or other planet! but guessing what happened to that was over billions of years, whereas with planet earth we're talking about its evolution over tens of thousands of years, a comparatively short time. As far as we know, Venus just didn't have the same biology as us (did it ever have water, eg?) | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:41 - Mar 28 with 4403 views | BlueBadger |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:21 - Mar 28 by The_Last_Baron |
The world's population is not four billion too high. This notion that the planet can only provide for so many people is nonsense. The standard of living in the world is the highest it's ever been yet the population is the highest it's ever been. |
Fancy that, a Brexiteer in denial about reality. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:43 - Mar 28 with 4403 views | Radlett_blue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:37 - Mar 28 by Ryorry |
I meant in the sense of how, eg, fox (or whatever) populations in their local habitat will rise or fall according to the food that's available; or how, e.g. re-wilding just happens naturally when humankind stops intervening in any area ((best analogies I can think of right now, pushed for time).
It was humankind pushing nature's boundaries by crowding one species of bat taken from the wild, up against another kind of bat in open cages in an open market, when the 2 species would never meet naturally in the wild, then introducing large crowds of humans onto the scene, that caused this virus to transmit as rapidly as it did - perfect conditions from the virus' point of view! (according to doctor on R5l bout an hour ago).
I'm no expert on Venus or other planet! but guessing what happened to that was over billions of years, whereas with planet earth we're talking about its evolution over tens of thousands of years, a comparatively short time. As far as we know, Venus just didn't have the same biology as us (did it ever have water, eg?) |
While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilisation as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialisation started in the earnest only in the 1800s.
The dinosaurs ruled for 180 million years. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:00 - Mar 28 with 4386 views | Ryorry |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:43 - Mar 28 by Radlett_blue |
While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilisation as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialisation started in the earnest only in the 1800s.
The dinosaurs ruled for 180 million years. |
Yes, I was talking about humankind's influence on the planet really (& my concept of time is notoriously fuzzy!) | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:01 - Mar 28 with 4381 views | Trequartista |
No. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:01 - Mar 28 with 4381 views | WeWereZombies |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 13:21 - Mar 28 by The_Last_Baron |
The world's population is not four billion too high. This notion that the planet can only provide for so many people is nonsense. The standard of living in the world is the highest it's ever been yet the population is the highest it's ever been. |
This is (or maybe, was) true at the moment. The ability to feed. clothe, shelter and keep warm even twice the seven or eight billion here at the moment is just a question of rational distribution of resources, care of the environment and adaptability to change. One of the biggest challenges is a sensible attitude to migration coupled with adequate regulation of health services and extractive industries. The World's population will stabilise once people feel more secure and not under pressure to have large families as a result of needing someone to look after you in old age, uncertainty over whether you will outlive your offspring and understanding how to practice effective birth control. |  |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:13 - Mar 28 with 4371 views | WeWereZombies |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 16:37 - Mar 28 by Ryorry |
I meant in the sense of how, eg, fox (or whatever) populations in their local habitat will rise or fall according to the food that's available; or how, e.g. re-wilding just happens naturally when humankind stops intervening in any area ((best analogies I can think of right now, pushed for time).
It was humankind pushing nature's boundaries by crowding one species of bat taken from the wild, up against another kind of bat in open cages in an open market, when the 2 species would never meet naturally in the wild, then introducing large crowds of humans onto the scene, that caused this virus to transmit as rapidly as it did - perfect conditions from the virus' point of view! (according to doctor on R5l bout an hour ago).
I'm no expert on Venus or other planet! but guessing what happened to that was over billions of years, whereas with planet earth we're talking about its evolution over tens of thousands of years, a comparatively short time. As far as we know, Venus just didn't have the same biology as us (did it ever have water, eg?) |
Venus is radically different from the Earth, it even rotates in the opposite direction! Life, as we know it, is unlikely to ever have occurred there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Habitability
From higher up the Wikipedia page:
'Studies have suggested that billions of years ago, Venus's atmosphere was much more like the one surrounding Earth, and that there may have been substantial quantities of liquid water on the surface, but after a period of 600 million to several billion years, a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere.' | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:18 - Mar 28 with 4365 views | Ryorry |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:13 - Mar 28 by WeWereZombies |
Venus is radically different from the Earth, it even rotates in the opposite direction! Life, as we know it, is unlikely to ever have occurred there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Habitability
From higher up the Wikipedia page:
'Studies have suggested that billions of years ago, Venus's atmosphere was much more like the one surrounding Earth, and that there may have been substantial quantities of liquid water on the surface, but after a period of 600 million to several billion years, a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere.' |
Ah, cheers Zombies.
For whatever reason, I find it rotating in the opp direction to Earth quite weird! I wonder why (both why I find it weird, and why it would do that, altho I suppose there's no reason it shouldn't). | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:28 - Mar 28 with 4357 views | NthQldITFC |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:01 - Mar 28 by WeWereZombies |
This is (or maybe, was) true at the moment. The ability to feed. clothe, shelter and keep warm even twice the seven or eight billion here at the moment is just a question of rational distribution of resources, care of the environment and adaptability to change. One of the biggest challenges is a sensible attitude to migration coupled with adequate regulation of health services and extractive industries. The World's population will stabilise once people feel more secure and not under pressure to have large families as a result of needing someone to look after you in old age, uncertainty over whether you will outlive your offspring and understanding how to practice effective birth control. |
What about the rest of nature? | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:48 - Mar 28 with 4344 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:13 - Mar 28 by WeWereZombies |
Venus is radically different from the Earth, it even rotates in the opposite direction! Life, as we know it, is unlikely to ever have occurred there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Habitability
From higher up the Wikipedia page:
'Studies have suggested that billions of years ago, Venus's atmosphere was much more like the one surrounding Earth, and that there may have been substantial quantities of liquid water on the surface, but after a period of 600 million to several billion years, a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere.' |
Swap Venus for Mars then. Mars was very much like Earth in the early stages. It's now a dead planet. I think there were various reasons why its atmosphere was destroyed, can't quite remember exactly, but while we flourished, Mars died, due to the lack of the protection by its atmosphere from the Sun. Source: Brian Cox on his series, The Planets. | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 18:11 - Mar 28 with 4327 views | Epiphone |
The 2004 Tsunami, malaria,malnutrition ,poor water quality,etc,etc,etc all do a far more efficient job of “thinning out” the world population but they don’t get anywhere near the Press of this virus.Oh wait ,they don’t impact as much on the “developed” world. |  | | |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 18:54 - Mar 28 with 4303 views | WeWereZombies |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 17:28 - Mar 28 by NthQldITFC |
What about the rest of nature? |
Well, we can cut down the use of plastics to where it is the best solution in terms of sustainability rather than convenience. But the big impact humans make in eradicating so many species is habitat loss. It doesn't have to be that way; if every human was someone who provided habitats for other species (in mean in terms of actively managing land for that purpose, not letting lice fester in our beards) then more humans would mean more help. But you are right, we have a long way to go before we look after the World around us in the way some cultures have done in the past. | |
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| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 19:01 - Mar 28 with 4296 views | NthQldITFC |
| I'm beginning to wonder if the planet, or Mother Nature, knows how to look after on 18:54 - Mar 28 by WeWereZombies |
Well, we can cut down the use of plastics to where it is the best solution in terms of sustainability rather than convenience. But the big impact humans make in eradicating so many species is habitat loss. It doesn't have to be that way; if every human was someone who provided habitats for other species (in mean in terms of actively managing land for that purpose, not letting lice fester in our beards) then more humans would mean more help. But you are right, we have a long way to go before we look after the World around us in the way some cultures have done in the past. |
Totally agree re habitat destruction. The trouble is the more consumers there are, the more habitat is lost. It's inescapable. | |
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