| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:46 - Apr 9 with 1461 views | WicklowBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:17 - Apr 9 by xrayspecs |
Rather than competing for ventilators on the international market where demand has pushed prices up by many multiples of normal times price, UK government has worked with UK high tech engineering sector to build our own.
Mercedes are now producing 1000 CPAP machines per day for the NHS and have given their blueprint/intellectual property away for free so that others can also copy/produce more machines.
On this particular topic, the government have done a good job. It also means that CPAP machines (which we will need in the future) will be a lot cheaper for all health care systems to manufacture. |
Just a quick point, CPAP machines are not ventilators. One of the things I learned during these tough times is that Ireland produces at least 10% of the world's ventilator machines (the IDA claim it's 50% which I find hard to believe).
https://www.3dpersonnel.com/blog/2020/04/medtronic-to-double-number-of-staff-mak |  | |  |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:51 - Apr 9 with 1455 views | BlueBadger |
Well, strictly speaking they're non-invasive ventilators... |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:52 - Apr 9 with 1452 views | tractordownsouth |
Is there proof that Dyson's will be ready sooner? If true though that is a good thing of course. |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:54 - Apr 9 with 1447 views | xrayspecs |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:32 - Apr 9 by giant_stow |
On one hand thats fair, but on other hand several countries are apparently ahead of us in their epidemics, so doesnt that provide useful data? |
To an extent but not entirely, a lot depends I believe on how many incident cases you have (how many smouldering fires) and then how you respond.
"international" cities such as London with a high volume of people flying in and out of the capital each day are more prone to spread of infection than smaller capital cities where there is less travel in/out of the country. So in this regard, a bit like NY, no great surprise that we have a bigger issue than say Belarus, where life goes on as normal. I appreciate they are extreme examples but you get my point.
In terms of how countries respond, China (if you believe their data) and Korea seem to have been most successful given their near instant lock down to contain spread. The UK appear to have aimed for a managed spread of the disease to build herd immunity but then got spooked by research coming out from one of the London Unis which said that this would overwhelm the NHS. The issue here is that if you run out of capacity, staff, CPAP, ventilators etc. then a lot of folk who would have eventually got better would die. So we were late to the party in terms of social distancing/lock-down which in hindsight was a mistake.
Germany seems to have better access to tests, which may be a factor in why they are managing better than us, they too with a number of international centres have seen lots of burning fires.
So, yes, I think we can learn from other countries, but equally, we are all in the same boat trying to figure out what to do with no play book to give us the answers. |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:55 - Apr 9 with 1442 views | tractordownsouth |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:17 - Apr 9 by xrayspecs |
Rather than competing for ventilators on the international market where demand has pushed prices up by many multiples of normal times price, UK government has worked with UK high tech engineering sector to build our own.
Mercedes are now producing 1000 CPAP machines per day for the NHS and have given their blueprint/intellectual property away for free so that others can also copy/produce more machines.
On this particular topic, the government have done a good job. It also means that CPAP machines (which we will need in the future) will be a lot cheaper for all health care systems to manufacture. |
You raise a good point about making our own during a rise in demand, that was a bit of a brain fart on my part. However, as Callis said, I still think we should have put our eggs in that basket too, to get as many as possible. | |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:57 - Apr 9 with 1440 views | WicklowBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:51 - Apr 9 by BlueBadger |
Well, strictly speaking they're non-invasive ventilators... |
Thanks Badger, agreed and you are in the health care field not I. Both are in huge demand globally I presume? | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:01 - Apr 9 with 1436 views | xrayspecs |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:45 - Apr 9 by Trequartista |
But even taking into account they are reports of deaths in the last 24 hours, not actual deaths in the last 24 hours, how can there be a daily reported deaths of 800+ yesterday, and now today it's a weekly figure of 700+
And these are all NHS England figures so they are all hospitals only. |
I am not sure you first para is correct. The weekly total will be much higher than 700+. What we are now understanding is that there can be a significant lag between a death and that being included in the daily stats.
Yes, hospital only. The ONS will report community deaths but the evidence to date is they are relatively limited in comparison. | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:03 - Apr 9 with 1429 views | xrayspecs |
You are correct, they are though a step up from oxygen and in relatively short supply. Some of the patients who are ventilated would be ok with CPAP. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:06 - Apr 9 with 1425 views | xrayspecs |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:55 - Apr 9 by tractordownsouth |
You raise a good point about making our own during a rise in demand, that was a bit of a brain fart on my part. However, as Callis said, I still think we should have put our eggs in that basket too, to get as many as possible. |
I agree with you both.
My point was that the UK has a strong high tech manufacturing capability which appears to be enabling them to meet the challenge and not pay through the nose at the same time. | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:10 - Apr 9 with 1419 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:05 - Apr 9 by tractordownsouth |
How so?
I think the financial response from the government was been very good and have praised them for it, but the fact we didn't bulk buy ventilators, despite Hancock saying we were "prepared" in the House of Commons in January, is horrendous. The WHO advice has been to keep testing and testing, which we haven't done. |
When you are talking about PPE you are talking about product that predominantly comes from China. The factories in China were limited to what they could send out for export until about a week ago as the Chinese Army were commandeering all the kit to be sent to Wuhan and elsewhere in China (don't for one minute take any notice about the Chinese death count). The army had a presence in these factories and have only just stepped back. At the same time the rest of the world was trying to order as much as could be manufactured and they all faced the same problem as UK.
Considering UK can probably buying masks for about .08 cents the idea that they were trying to save money is frankly laughable.
The demand for masks in China has eased but now you have Trumps men over there on the ground strong arming it and splashing out cash for whatever they can get while long standing orders that are queued are being put to the back again or ending up in the bin.
Only Mystic Meg could have solved this.
The one thing that we can learn from this is to have the capability to self produce these items.
I haven't a clue about ventilators. |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:20 - Apr 9 with 1400 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:01 - Apr 9 by xrayspecs |
I am not sure you first para is correct. The weekly total will be much higher than 700+. What we are now understanding is that there can be a significant lag between a death and that being included in the daily stats.
Yes, hospital only. The ONS will report community deaths but the evidence to date is they are relatively limited in comparison. |
Guardian is running a story tonight that around 1,000 people have died so far in UK care homes. Story is based on the Care Homes umbrella organisation and the Alzheimers Society.
My mum is in a care home which is half regular cases, half dementia, and until yesterday carers had no additional PPE at all, and had not isolated residents from each other... | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:30 - Apr 9 with 1372 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:02 - Apr 9 by tractordownsouth |
I still think the fact we didn't take part in the EU ventilator scheme despite being eligible to do so just "because we're an independent country" is an absolute shambles mind |
I agree.
However that's not what was said so it's not really relevant to the initial point.
SB |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:31 - Apr 9 with 1371 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:30 - Apr 9 by monytowbray |
Is this your way of deflecting being a bit annoyed and in denial about what you’ve actively voted for over the last decade plus? Because this is a pretty immature and sulky post by your usual standards. |
But your point was wrong.
Nobody can get the gear and nobody could stockpile enough because it would be ridiculous in normal circumstances.
Do you want to address that point at all? You seemed to have moved the debate to ventilators instead of PPE when I made the initial point.
SB [Post edited 9 Apr 2020 21:33]
| | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:34 - Apr 9 with 1362 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:20 - Apr 9 by Freddies_Ears |
Guardian is running a story tonight that around 1,000 people have died so far in UK care homes. Story is based on the Care Homes umbrella organisation and the Alzheimers Society.
My mum is in a care home which is half regular cases, half dementia, and until yesterday carers had no additional PPE at all, and had not isolated residents from each other... |
Care homes are indeed a major problem - as are all sorts of institutions be it mental or whatever. I dread to think how a chap I know is getting on with severely autistic child, I saw them regularly when the kid was about 10 and he was difficult to handle then and had to wear a crash helmet all the time in case he battered his head against the wall. That was years ago, God knows how he is dealing with this.
Back to care homes, it's doubly hard as family members can't visit to help and with regards to dementia sufferers, how many times have you got to explain to the poor feckers? | |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:40 - Apr 9 with 1349 views | xrayspecs |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:20 - Apr 9 by Freddies_Ears |
Guardian is running a story tonight that around 1,000 people have died so far in UK care homes. Story is based on the Care Homes umbrella organisation and the Alzheimers Society.
My mum is in a care home which is half regular cases, half dementia, and until yesterday carers had no additional PPE at all, and had not isolated residents from each other... |
That is quite an alarming report. We know that by definition death rates in care homes will be high for all the reasons we know, the question is by how much is this higher than normal?
The government strategy of shielding vulnerable adults is based on them being less able to cope with both the illness and the procedures that may be needed to address their ill health.
Wishing you and your mum the very best. If you want some reassurance and inspiration, then I trust this may help.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-52222315 | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:43 - Apr 9 with 1340 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:31 - Apr 9 by StokieBlue |
But your point was wrong.
Nobody can get the gear and nobody could stockpile enough because it would be ridiculous in normal circumstances.
Do you want to address that point at all? You seemed to have moved the debate to ventilators instead of PPE when I made the initial point.
SB [Post edited 9 Apr 2020 21:33]
|
Which part of it was wrong? The part where I said we didn’t stockpile or prepare for this because it was too costly, the part where we acted too late or the part where we still don’t have enough PPE equipment?
Now is the time for questions, not deflection.
EDIT: The “EU ventilator scheme” included other medical supplies, hence why it was mentioned. [Post edited 9 Apr 2020 21:44]
|  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:49 - Apr 9 with 1324 views | jeera |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 19:13 - Apr 9 by brazil1982 |
Doctor Who is dead?! |
Don't worry, he'll be back.
Or she. 'They'.
Someone will regenerate. |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:50 - Apr 9 with 1323 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:43 - Apr 9 by monytowbray |
Which part of it was wrong? The part where I said we didn’t stockpile or prepare for this because it was too costly, the part where we acted too late or the part where we still don’t have enough PPE equipment?
Now is the time for questions, not deflection.
EDIT: The “EU ventilator scheme” included other medical supplies, hence why it was mentioned. [Post edited 9 Apr 2020 21:44]
|
The bit where nobody stockpiled because it wasn't feasible to stockpile for a pandemic. It's too costly for everyone. Which country had adequate stockpiles of PPE?
The second point you didn't answer was how the government were supposed to get more now given there is a global shortage and the US are paying crazy sums?
You are deflecting by not answering, not me. You criticise constantly without acknowledging the difficulties of the situation. It seems the only thing getting your through it to direct your anger at the government at any and all subjects. That's fine but it's not reasonable.
SB | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:50 - Apr 9 with 1321 views | longtimefan |
Given the numerous reports of PPE supplies having their use by dates extended, we obviously had some stockpiles in deep storage. | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:51 - Apr 9 with 1317 views | jeera |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 19:12 - Apr 9 by StokieBlue |
It's not as easy as you make out though.
Every single country in the world is trying to get more PPE gear to the point where the US are active outbidding other developed countries on the runway as the plane is about to leave.
I agree we need more PPE gear but the implication seems to be we aren't trying to get it?
SB |
But there is a textile industry in the country.
There are firms capable of knocking up protective equipment, you would think?
How can this be a procurement thing, if it is; i.e. a preferential source when there's an immediate need for vast numbers? | |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:53 - Apr 9 with 1315 views | WicklowBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:40 - Apr 9 by xrayspecs |
That is quite an alarming report. We know that by definition death rates in care homes will be high for all the reasons we know, the question is by how much is this higher than normal?
The government strategy of shielding vulnerable adults is based on them being less able to cope with both the illness and the procedures that may be needed to address their ill health.
Wishing you and your mum the very best. If you want some reassurance and inspiration, then I trust this may help.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-52222315 |
Over here we have had a large amount of clusters being reported from care homes, probably caused by a lack of PPE and staff. The government have committed to providing more PPE to such facilities but our 200 million PPE order from China has had quality problems with circa 20% not being suitable.
As with other countries some outcomes are heartbreaking:
'I shed another tear when I had a look': Dublin man's 'last goodbye' to brother from bench at hospital window https://jrnl.ie/5070466 | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning.. on 21:56 - Apr 9 with 1316 views | Trequartista |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:01 - Apr 9 by xrayspecs |
I am not sure you first para is correct. The weekly total will be much higher than 700+. What we are now understanding is that there can be a significant lag between a death and that being included in the daily stats.
Yes, hospital only. The ONS will report community deaths but the evidence to date is they are relatively limited in comparison. |
I think i've worked it out, using your reasoning - thank you
"In England, 765 patients have died in England after contracting coronavirus - bringing the total to 7,248. The figures have been released by NHS England. They clarified that 140 of those deaths took place on Wednesday, while 568 happened within the previous week and the remaining 57 were from March."
So the daily total of reported deaths is 765 in the last 24 hours, which is comparable to the >800 from the day before, but today, for the first time, they've broken down those reported deaths into the actual death date to illustrate that for all the daily death totals we have been receiving, the day the person actually died was more often than not, before the day of reporting. |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:56 - Apr 9 with 1309 views | longtimefan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 20:34 - Apr 9 by monytowbray |
If it were Corbyn you’d be on the side that says hindsight won’t change what a reckless move it was.
Also note it wasn’t just ventilators they were providing, but PPE gear too.
Never ever imply I put a spin on things again. |
I’m not defending not joining the EU joint procurement process, we should have, but the EU aren’t providing anything. The process is basically a joint tender to set a price and secure some level of supply. It is still down to individual countries to arrange the purchase contracts. My understanding is that this is true for PPE and ventilators. Happy to be corrected. | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:59 - Apr 9 with 1304 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:43 - Apr 9 by monytowbray |
Which part of it was wrong? The part where I said we didn’t stockpile or prepare for this because it was too costly, the part where we acted too late or the part where we still don’t have enough PPE equipment?
Now is the time for questions, not deflection.
EDIT: The “EU ventilator scheme” included other medical supplies, hence why it was mentioned. [Post edited 9 Apr 2020 21:44]
|
Stocking PPE is a real pain in the ar$e.
Most PPE have an expiry date. If there is no expiry date, manufacturers tend to quote a shelf life.
Our complacency towards every day PPE is all kinds of wrong. Our complacency stems from cost in all likelihood.
We need a cultural change regarding the way certain professions are expected to work, and the levels of protection that they are afforded. |  |
| |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:59 - Apr 9 with 1302 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 21:51 - Apr 9 by jeera |
But there is a textile industry in the country.
There are firms capable of knocking up protective equipment, you would think?
How can this be a procurement thing, if it is; i.e. a preferential source when there's an immediate need for vast numbers? |
There is but not on the scale required and it's not easy to go from making clothes to virus-proof PPE equipment.
In France the luxury clothes brands have started making PPE but they are much more sophisticated and it still took them weeks to convert their manufacturing.
I don't understand your last sentence I am afraid, I might be being dumb.
SB | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
