| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:45 - Apr 10 with 550 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by Leaky |
My partner works in a care home. She say's she gets through approximately 40 pairs of gloves & 40 aprons a day that's roughly 2o0 a week times that by all the care staff in the Uk. Then you have NHS & police requirements that's one hell of an amount. Times that around the world you then get the scale of things. |
Yeah but apart from that............. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:49 - Apr 10 with 539 views | pointofblue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:32 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
What we do now I don’t have the answer for, but I was vocal about all of this coming home to roost weeks ago when we could have acted and was told to shut up by many on here who have since gone a bit quiet.
What we do now is frantically run around hoping for the best outcome because we truly f*cked it. Italy and Spain were the warning sign we ignored. Herd immunity without actually preparing the NHS. Still amazes me people defended that idea at the time and some still do as if it was an actual strategy and with considerations. Perhaps even the Tories are blind to the impact of their cuts but I doubt it.
Like Grenfell, when all is said and done, the enquiry will conclude it was someone else’s fault and scapegoat them. |
The scientific community itself was divided on how the world should react to the pandemic and what would be the best solution to manage the outbreak - Sweden continued with the herd immunity approach even later than us. The impact on the NHS, at this point, whilst bad doesn’t seem as horrific as it could have been and we have to hope that people abide by the implemented measures so they can continue to have an affect. I think one think the Government had concerns about, which appears to be accurate, is that people would quickly get bored with isolation and would break the requirements too early. The news coming from the Greater Manchester police, particularly, is frightening.
Herd immunity was the incorrect approach. Maybe I’m thick but I saw the logic behind it, particularly as our social interaction and living arrangements tend to be different to the likes of Italy and Spain. It didn’t work and we changed course, yes no doubt later than we should have done.
The situation with PPE is complicated; as stated above a lot of PPE has expiry dates meaning they cannot be held for a long period of time. Stockpiling would be a waste of resources which could be spent elsewhere. There have been reports, again relayed on this thread, that PPE resources have been diverted from original orders to the highest bidder at the last moment. The EU PPE programme has not yet born fruit and countries involved are struggling with kits as much as we are.
The NHS funding has been a political hot potato for years but, as I said elsewhere, the entire structure of the NHS needs to be reviewed before more money is thrown at the service. Financially it needs to be fit for purpose and that means much closer working with particularly adult social care and a consideration to the detrimental impact of the private sector on the service.
All this will be reviewed at the right time but, for now, we now have to look forward. Screaming “I was right” and repeatedly going back into the past to drag up points is, at this stage, not going to help anyone. The focus should be how do we get out of the position we’re in, not how did we get here in the first place - that is for later and I’m sure quite a few of us will be very interesting in reading the advice and reports from this time if they’re made public, which I’m sure they will be. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:04 - Apr 10 with 514 views | Leaky |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:40 - Apr 10 by Leaky |
My partner works in a care home. She say's she gets through approximately 40 pairs of gloves & 40 aprons a day that's roughly 2o0 a week times that by all the care staff in the Uk. Then you have NHS & police requirements that's one hell of an amount. Times that around the world you then get the scale of things. |
I would just like to add this without any cases of Covid-19 in the home. |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:14 - Apr 10 with 490 views | WD19 |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 06:33 - Apr 10 by m14_blue |
Without wanting to get involved, I think you’ve got SB totally wrong. |
‘Totally wrong’ appears to be his forum schtick. Coupled with behaving like my dad in a restaurant on a foreign holiday - shouting ever louder in increasingly broken English in the hope whoever is in the other end of the transaction gets it. |  | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:16 - Apr 10 with 488 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:44 - Apr 10 by portmanking |
But if we kick, scream and stamp our feet rather than come up with sensible solutions, it'll all work out, right? |
Like 4 weeks ago when these concerns were already being raised, the journalists sat compliant in the briefings and you told anyone who linked to any expert opinion on this matter to shut up?
Perhaps I’m alone in seeing how a few on this forum are now making out this was an inevitable issue. But it wasn’t.
Boris Is Doing A Great Jobâ„¢ï¸ |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:19 - Apr 10 with 486 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 12:49 - Apr 10 by pointofblue |
The scientific community itself was divided on how the world should react to the pandemic and what would be the best solution to manage the outbreak - Sweden continued with the herd immunity approach even later than us. The impact on the NHS, at this point, whilst bad doesn’t seem as horrific as it could have been and we have to hope that people abide by the implemented measures so they can continue to have an affect. I think one think the Government had concerns about, which appears to be accurate, is that people would quickly get bored with isolation and would break the requirements too early. The news coming from the Greater Manchester police, particularly, is frightening.
Herd immunity was the incorrect approach. Maybe I’m thick but I saw the logic behind it, particularly as our social interaction and living arrangements tend to be different to the likes of Italy and Spain. It didn’t work and we changed course, yes no doubt later than we should have done.
The situation with PPE is complicated; as stated above a lot of PPE has expiry dates meaning they cannot be held for a long period of time. Stockpiling would be a waste of resources which could be spent elsewhere. There have been reports, again relayed on this thread, that PPE resources have been diverted from original orders to the highest bidder at the last moment. The EU PPE programme has not yet born fruit and countries involved are struggling with kits as much as we are.
The NHS funding has been a political hot potato for years but, as I said elsewhere, the entire structure of the NHS needs to be reviewed before more money is thrown at the service. Financially it needs to be fit for purpose and that means much closer working with particularly adult social care and a consideration to the detrimental impact of the private sector on the service.
All this will be reviewed at the right time but, for now, we now have to look forward. Screaming “I was right” and repeatedly going back into the past to drag up points is, at this stage, not going to help anyone. The focus should be how do we get out of the position we’re in, not how did we get here in the first place - that is for later and I’m sure quite a few of us will be very interesting in reading the advice and reports from this time if they’re made public, which I’m sure they will be. |
You don’t go for a herd immunity approach when the healthcare system won’t cope though. Particularly when you model on the wrong data rather than the data available from other countries, and then lie about why the approach changed over one weekend.
The only time there’s logic in HI is if there’s a vaccine, testing to protect the vulnerable and a health system that’s well equipped. We had none of that in place.
But we’ve had since early February to play catch up on PPE. We didn’t. And then they continue to lie about what’s going on whilst hospitals put gagging orders on staff. Which is something we criticised the CCP for.
When there’s a lack of transparency over the plan, it’s probably because there wasn’t one and it’s not coming together on the winging of it. [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 13:24]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:21 - Apr 10 with 485 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:14 - Apr 10 by WD19 |
‘Totally wrong’ appears to be his forum schtick. Coupled with behaving like my dad in a restaurant on a foreign holiday - shouting ever louder in increasingly broken English in the hope whoever is in the other end of the transaction gets it. |
Please point out where his weird version of events in this thread happened. Like when he said I changed the subject whilst replying to the post Glassers made after being off the forum for two hours.
I think you seem to have me and SB confused. But if pretending makes you feel better, go ahead. Rather than, you know, reading. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:27 - Apr 10 with 478 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:19 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
You don’t go for a herd immunity approach when the healthcare system won’t cope though. Particularly when you model on the wrong data rather than the data available from other countries, and then lie about why the approach changed over one weekend.
The only time there’s logic in HI is if there’s a vaccine, testing to protect the vulnerable and a health system that’s well equipped. We had none of that in place.
But we’ve had since early February to play catch up on PPE. We didn’t. And then they continue to lie about what’s going on whilst hospitals put gagging orders on staff. Which is something we criticised the CCP for.
When there’s a lack of transparency over the plan, it’s probably because there wasn’t one and it’s not coming together on the winging of it. [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 13:24]
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Right, for the last time.
We have been trying to get unlimited amounts of PPE in since Feb. It has been explained to you dozens of times why there is a lack of PPE all around the world but you just twist and turn your posts like an annoying schoolboy.
Now go and stand in the corner and have a think about things. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:31 - Apr 10 with 466 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:27 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Right, for the last time.
We have been trying to get unlimited amounts of PPE in since Feb. It has been explained to you dozens of times why there is a lack of PPE all around the world but you just twist and turn your posts like an annoying schoolboy.
Now go and stand in the corner and have a think about things. |
Evidence of us trying to source PPE since February? As I’ve not seen any.
Getting a straight story would be a good start as when you revisit news from 2 weeks ago what’s been said and what’s happening now don’t add up.
https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/ppe-concerns-remain-despite-herculean-effort-to- [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 13:34]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:33 - Apr 10 with 464 views | portmanking |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:27 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Right, for the last time.
We have been trying to get unlimited amounts of PPE in since Feb. It has been explained to you dozens of times why there is a lack of PPE all around the world but you just twist and turn your posts like an annoying schoolboy.
Now go and stand in the corner and have a think about things. |
Amen.
Take a time-out Callis. | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:34 - Apr 10 with 462 views | portmanking |
It's been happening! FFS.
Do you really think world leaders just sit on their thumbs all day?! | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:35 - Apr 10 with 460 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:33 - Apr 10 by portmanking |
Amen.
Take a time-out Callis. |
A time out from what? You downvoting me for weeks about flagging issues that are coming to light?
Sure. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:35 - Apr 10 with 457 views | portmanking |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:35 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
A time out from what? You downvoting me for weeks about flagging issues that are coming to light?
Sure. |
A time-out from here. It's not healthy for you (or us). | | | |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:36 - Apr 10 with 457 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:34 - Apr 10 by portmanking |
It's been happening! FFS.
Do you really think world leaders just sit on their thumbs all day?! |
If it’s happening, show evidence. This narrative that I don’t listen was invented purely by those who get arsey when I disagree and have grounds to do so.
I’m happy to concede when wrong. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:37 - Apr 10 with 451 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:35 - Apr 10 by portmanking |
A time-out from here. It's not healthy for you (or us). |
I did for a few hours yesterday but managed to telepathically control Glasser’s thoughts apparently so I’m damned either way. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:55 - Apr 10 with 420 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:36 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
If it’s happening, show evidence. This narrative that I don’t listen was invented purely by those who get arsey when I disagree and have grounds to do so.
I’m happy to concede when wrong. |
I doubt anyone on here works for the NHS in their procurement department.
Also there was a complete slowdown, including shut downs of many factories, in the production of this PPE in China.
The stuff just isn’t there. Now with the Yanks buying the stuff before it gets transported, this is going to be an issue for a long time. |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:55 - Apr 10 with 419 views | StokieBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:27 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Right, for the last time.
We have been trying to get unlimited amounts of PPE in since Feb. It has been explained to you dozens of times why there is a lack of PPE all around the world but you just twist and turn your posts like an annoying schoolboy.
Now go and stand in the corner and have a think about things. |
Exactly.
The WHO issued a statement on the 3rd March that there was a global shortage of PPE:
https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-protective-
They then issued a statement on the 27th March saying the global shortage was an urgent matter for survival:
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-global-shortage-of-ppe-is-urgent-threat-2020
"Tedros said that healthcare workers in low- and middle-income countries deserve the same protection as those in wealthier countries, such as the US and the UK, which, despite their resources, have also faced a dire shortage of appropriate gear. "
Shortages throughout the EU of PPE and even ventalators:
https://euobserver.com/coronavirus/147958
"EU countries have reported shortages of ventilators, personal protective equipment and testing kits - especially in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and France where there are very high coronavirus patient loads requiring intensive care."
The UK response has been far from perfect and there are many areas of legitimate criticism as you say but equipment that doesn't exist cannot be magicked out of thin air no matter how many times one says we need it. To say we haven't been trying to obtain it is essentially accusing the government of wilful and deliberate neglect.
An accusation like that requires the accuser to show evidence rather than the other way around.
SB [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 15:29]
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:57 - Apr 10 with 415 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:55 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
Exactly.
The WHO issued a statement on the 3rd March that there was a global shortage of PPE:
https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-protective-
They then issued a statement on the 27th March saying the global shortage was an urgent matter for survival:
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-global-shortage-of-ppe-is-urgent-threat-2020
"Tedros said that healthcare workers in low- and middle-income countries deserve the same protection as those in wealthier countries, such as the US and the UK, which, despite their resources, have also faced a dire shortage of appropriate gear. "
Shortages throughout the EU of PPE and even ventalators:
https://euobserver.com/coronavirus/147958
"EU countries have reported shortages of ventilators, personal protective equipment and testing kits - especially in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and France where there are very high coronavirus patient loads requiring intensive care."
The UK response has been far from perfect and there are many areas of legitimate criticism as you say but equipment that doesn't exist cannot be magicked out of thin air no matter how many times one says we need it. To say we haven't been trying to obtain it is essentially accusing the government of wilful and deliberate neglect.
An accusation like that requires the accuser to show evidence rather than the other way around.
SB [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 15:29]
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It’s almost as if China almost stopped making stuff during January and February, and now it is all going to the highest bidder.
But let’s not that get in the way of a good flounce.... | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:18 - Apr 10 with 392 views | Lord_Lucan |
Do you expect the government to advise you every time they order something?
This is the problem with these daily meetings, people like you assume that everything hundreds of ministers and civil servants do every day is announced in a 30 minute briefing. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:20 - Apr 10 with 387 views | NewcyBlue |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:18 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Do you expect the government to advise you every time they order something?
This is the problem with these daily meetings, people like you assume that everything hundreds of ministers and civil servants do every day is announced in a 30 minute briefing. |
“The problem with the world is communication. Too much communication. “ - Homer J Simpson. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:33 - Apr 10 with 372 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:18 - Apr 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Do you expect the government to advise you every time they order something?
This is the problem with these daily meetings, people like you assume that everything hundreds of ministers and civil servants do every day is announced in a 30 minute briefing. |
So you have no evidence and are working on assumptions. Glad we cleared that up. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:34 - Apr 10 with 367 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:57 - Apr 10 by NewcyBlue |
It’s almost as if China almost stopped making stuff during January and February, and now it is all going to the highest bidder.
But let’s not that get in the way of a good flounce.... |
China wasn’t on a complete lockdown. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:35 - Apr 10 with 363 views | monytowbray |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 13:55 - Apr 10 by StokieBlue |
Exactly.
The WHO issued a statement on the 3rd March that there was a global shortage of PPE:
https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-protective-
They then issued a statement on the 27th March saying the global shortage was an urgent matter for survival:
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-global-shortage-of-ppe-is-urgent-threat-2020
"Tedros said that healthcare workers in low- and middle-income countries deserve the same protection as those in wealthier countries, such as the US and the UK, which, despite their resources, have also faced a dire shortage of appropriate gear. "
Shortages throughout the EU of PPE and even ventalators:
https://euobserver.com/coronavirus/147958
"EU countries have reported shortages of ventilators, personal protective equipment and testing kits - especially in Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and France where there are very high coronavirus patient loads requiring intensive care."
The UK response has been far from perfect and there are many areas of legitimate criticism as you say but equipment that doesn't exist cannot be magicked out of thin air no matter how many times one says we need it. To say we haven't been trying to obtain it is essentially accusing the government of wilful and deliberate neglect.
An accusation like that requires the accuser to show evidence rather than the other way around.
SB [Post edited 10 Apr 2020 15:29]
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“ The UK response has been far from perfect and there are many areas of legitimate criticism but as you say”
So you agree but still spent four pages arguing with me about the swerve of what we’re doing now we’ve already f*cked it. Glad we got there in the end. | |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:39 - Apr 10 with 358 views | Ely_Blue |
What I find funny is that the lack of or lack of distribution of PPE is the governments fault somehow, I wonder how many managers this doctor or any of the others have that have been complaining about PPE? I could understand it if the person complaining to the government was the head of the nhs or a very senior manager.
It is akin to me complaining to my company CEO because there are no big biros or highlighter pens in the stationary cupboard.
Maybe more of the blame and focus should be aimed at the nhs managers and supply chain people who are not distributing what is obviously in the system somewhere? |  |
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| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:40 - Apr 10 with 355 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Even their own cheerleaders are turning... on 14:34 - Apr 10 by monytowbray |
China wasn’t on a complete lockdown. |
Most of China was on complete lockdown - including Shenzhen which is where a lot of this is made.
I also previously posted that when the PPE factories opened they were overlooked by the army and most of the gear was sent to Wuhan and other Chinese cities - but you ignored that post because it didn't sit well with you. | |
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