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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app 11:30 - May 5 with 3822 viewsgordon

We're going to find out why it's actually not such a great idea to have a Government full of charlatans that think it's fine to constantly lie, cheat and mislead the public.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:32 - May 5 with 2170 viewsGuthrum

In the sense of a low public uptake due to lack of confidence, yes. I can quite see that.

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:52 - May 5 with 2104 viewsmonytowbray

I ain't downloading jack sh1t the government tell me to on my phone until I know the full privacy impact.

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:53 - May 5 with 2099 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:32 - May 5 by Guthrum

In the sense of a low public uptake due to lack of confidence, yes. I can quite see that.


What will end up happening is most people end up using a decentralised alternative and the UK one will end up as basically just a £250 million giveaway to Dominic Cummings mate for absolutely zero benefit. The spirit of Chris Grayling lives on etc etc
[Post edited 5 May 2020 12:02]
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:04 - May 5 with 2071 viewsKeno

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:52 - May 5 by monytowbray

I ain't downloading jack sh1t the government tell me to on my phone until I know the full privacy impact.


that's the spirit

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:09 - May 5 with 2057 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:04 - May 5 by Keno

that's the spirit


Well, if Cummings and his mates see thousands of people dying as an opportunity to siphon off £250 million of public money it's easy to see why the public might be sceptical.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:13 - May 5 with 2040 viewsm14_blue

Absolutely spot on.

The chickens will come home to roost I fear, years of blatant lying and manipulating the public and now they want/need us all to trust them.

I’ll be downloading the app anyway but can completely understand why people wouldn’t.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:23 - May 5 with 2016 viewsmonytowbray

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:04 - May 5 by Keno

that's the spirit


I don't think people quite understand the implications of phone tracking apps in government hands. Particularly our own, who have been bumbling dodgy online privacy laws through on the quiet whilst bigger news is in the limelight over the years.

I'd want full transparency on what the app is doing, how it's doing it, who has access to that data, how long the data is valid for, how long it needs to stay on my phone and what happens to that data after this is over.

Because that's how we should be doing it. Would you let the government access your phone camera? Or set up a live stream in your living room? Think of this as no different.
[Post edited 5 May 2020 12:23]

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:01 - May 5 with 1987 viewsAce_High1

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:23 - May 5 by monytowbray

I don't think people quite understand the implications of phone tracking apps in government hands. Particularly our own, who have been bumbling dodgy online privacy laws through on the quiet whilst bigger news is in the limelight over the years.

I'd want full transparency on what the app is doing, how it's doing it, who has access to that data, how long the data is valid for, how long it needs to stay on my phone and what happens to that data after this is over.

Because that's how we should be doing it. Would you let the government access your phone camera? Or set up a live stream in your living room? Think of this as no different.
[Post edited 5 May 2020 12:23]


If it stops people dying and gets us closer to getting to the end of all this, I would not mind.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:08 - May 5 with 1977 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:01 - May 5 by Ace_High1

If it stops people dying and gets us closer to getting to the end of all this, I would not mind.


Completely understand this perspective.

It just feels like it's going to be an unnecessary mess - the advantage of centralised data storage is that the data are identifiable and can be used for other purposes - the disadvantage is that less people will trust the app and it will be less effective.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:10 - May 5 with 1969 viewsmonytowbray

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:01 - May 5 by Ace_High1

If it stops people dying and gets us closer to getting to the end of all this, I would not mind.


I'm for it if we're given enough information to trust what happens with said data.

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:13 - May 5 with 1961 viewsitfcjoe

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:01 - May 5 by Ace_High1

If it stops people dying and gets us closer to getting to the end of all this, I would not mind.


Whilst I understand that view, it's very important to try and look at the bigger picture here.

Some proper dystopian novels written about this, think one made into a film called The Circle by Dave Eggers. There is always an excuse to take more of your freedoms away, it is always a good thing and to stop something bad, and then it is too late

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:26 - May 5 with 1929 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:13 - May 5 by itfcjoe

Whilst I understand that view, it's very important to try and look at the bigger picture here.

Some proper dystopian novels written about this, think one made into a film called The Circle by Dave Eggers. There is always an excuse to take more of your freedoms away, it is always a good thing and to stop something bad, and then it is too late


If this kind of thing is necessary, and it is in this situation, then it is absolutely critical that it is done with the utmost effort made to ensure data is managed to the highest standards.

That manifestly isn't happening, and it seems inevitable that it's going to be another avoidable disaster.

If we find ourselves looking down from the heights of our second peak in a few months, with society riven by mistrust and anger, we'll look back at the scandal of this app.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:17 - May 5 with 1891 viewsKeno

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 12:23 - May 5 by monytowbray

I don't think people quite understand the implications of phone tracking apps in government hands. Particularly our own, who have been bumbling dodgy online privacy laws through on the quiet whilst bigger news is in the limelight over the years.

I'd want full transparency on what the app is doing, how it's doing it, who has access to that data, how long the data is valid for, how long it needs to stay on my phone and what happens to that data after this is over.

Because that's how we should be doing it. Would you let the government access your phone camera? Or set up a live stream in your living room? Think of this as no different.
[Post edited 5 May 2020 12:23]


depends whether you are doing anything wrong or have anything to hide

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:20 - May 5 with 1883 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:17 - May 5 by Keno

depends whether you are doing anything wrong or have anything to hide


Like SERCO, who have been contracted by the government to run the contact tracing, and were fined £20 million by the serious fraud office last year.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:26 - May 5 with 1865 viewsKeno

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:20 - May 5 by gordon

Like SERCO, who have been contracted by the government to run the contact tracing, and were fined £20 million by the serious fraud office last year.


you'd be happy to use the apple/google app?

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:33 - May 5 with 1851 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:26 - May 5 by Keno

you'd be happy to use the apple/google app?


The way I'd understood it was that Google / Apple had released an API that allowed healthcare services to develop contact tracing apps, but not an expert in this.

Would think that whatever app is used would need people to have an awful lot of trust in it, and can't see how the current approach is amenable to that trust developing.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:38 - May 5 with 1836 viewstrueblue1970

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:52 - May 5 by monytowbray

I ain't downloading jack sh1t the government tell me to on my phone until I know the full privacy impact.


Can’t see the issue if you are doing nothing wrong why worry, I fit helps beat this current issue?
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:43 - May 5 with 1827 viewsKeno

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:33 - May 5 by gordon

The way I'd understood it was that Google / Apple had released an API that allowed healthcare services to develop contact tracing apps, but not an expert in this.

Would think that whatever app is used would need people to have an awful lot of trust in it, and can't see how the current approach is amenable to that trust developing.


so basically you have something to hide and that will stop you doing something that might stop people dying

Thats the spirit!!

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:44 - May 5 with 1824 viewsgordon

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:43 - May 5 by Keno

so basically you have something to hide and that will stop you doing something that might stop people dying

Thats the spirit!!


Great logic.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:46 - May 5 with 1819 viewsmonytowbray

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:38 - May 5 by trueblue1970

Can’t see the issue if you are doing nothing wrong why worry, I fit helps beat this current issue?


Depends what you define as “wrong”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2018/oct/15/uk-political-grou

Stuff like this already happens.

The authorities have already classed many groups I support on the same par as neo Nazis which is all you need to know there. The law protects business.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/17/greenpeace-included-with-neo-naz
[Post edited 5 May 2020 14:49]

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:47 - May 5 with 1817 viewsLibero

Just so people are aware, If you have a smart phone the government can already 'track' you.

While I understand people's concerns I think I'll be downloading the app.
It's essentially a tool to help us try to gain back parts of our life that we have lost in the last 2 months and to help keep people safe, the idea that it's anything more sinister than anything that already exists is currently unfounded.
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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:48 - May 5 with 1814 viewsDanTheMan

I did post a fairly lengthy write up about this here:
Sooo are we headed for..... by DanTheMan 5 May 2020 13:47
They do list pros and cons in the article.

Simply put.

In the decentralised model, there is less information because it can't be processed in centrally. From a computing standpoint that does make sense. So whilst in the strictest sense of the word the application would work, the NHS would not be able to find out anything else more useful other than a person is ill and these people have been near them.

Now depending on your goals, this may well be enough.

In a centralised model, you sacrifice having the anonymised data in a central location. This would allow the entity collecting that data to do aggregations from it, and gleam more useful information that you could not do with only subsets of the data.

There is a picture that sort of illustrates this here:
https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/static-assets/images/blog-post/C-19-central-decentral-infographic.jpg

So now as far as security concerns, here is what I could gleam.

----

You start the app and get assigned what is called a GUID. Anyone who is familiar with software development will have come across these before and they look like this:
7bb0f988-6622-4e14-92a4-7c50dc3beb72.

Basically these are unique, "random" identifiers. The chances that two will be the same are absolutely tiny. That one I just created has probably never been seen before.

Anyway that is now you. They then record the first part of your post code and your phone model. At this point in the blog they say they've got nothing personal identifiable and take nothing more than that information. What I would say at this point is that I'd maybe slightly disagree, especially if you have a slightly rarer phone model and especially if they take any other operating system information that could potentially identify that as you.

Now you have that installed and the NHS has some data (ID, part of postcode, phone model / operating system), every day they encrypt your ID with some metadata they don't specify, with the key for this being held by the NHS I believe given how they've described it.

This is the information that is then shared between the phones, along with some other information that tries to work out how close you might have been. These are stored on the phones of the other person (still all encrypted). Assuming at this point nothing happens, after 28 days all the data is gone and nothing beyond the original information will have been sent to the NHS.

If you do catch something that is when you can choose to send that data to the NHS to be decrypted and used. If it finds any of the connections you made to other phones were at risk, they will be notified. At this point, without knowing what specifically is in those blobs, it's very hard to work out what information they have. I would say they should specify what it is they are recording but this will be decompiled I imagine within minutes of being on the app store(s) which should make it easy enough to see.

Their argument here is that now because they have all this information, they can create better risk models, which seems sensible.

So now the question becomes, how could you actually attack this? Well the first thing you theoretically need to be able to do is work out ID -> Person. You would need a copy of their ID or a whole subset of the NHS data which you would maybe be able to do something with but it's pretty tough and there's not a lot to go on, especially nothing that one would consider a huge issue. The NHS probably already have your name, phone number, address etc. Given the application apparently does not record any other biographical data, it would be quite hard to work out which ID is which person without being in close proximity.

Assuming the blog and accompanying paper are on the up and up and are not recording more than they say there are, there is not a lot to worry about here. You'd probably be able to gleam more off TWTD than this app could off you.

But until we can see the code in some form (which arguably should be open source), then people should exercise some caution. It will be established fairly quickly whether they were lying or not.

One other thing I do note is that in one of the select committees, they seemed fairly noncommittal on people being able to request their data is removed once this is over, and also that their data will not be sold at a later date which I don't think is right. There should be nothing that would stop people using this, trying to sell the data afterwards is ridiculous. I'd like to see what the ICO would do if the request was denied.


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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:51 - May 5 with 1795 viewsKeno

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:44 - May 5 by gordon

Great logic.


Thanks, I'm glad you see the point I am making

You can be tracked and traced already, 1984 is alive and well and we live with it. For the majority of people it isn't an issue unless they are doing something they dont want other people to know about but similarly for a majority of people it can serve to protect them.

If using an app helps get on top of the virus, saves lives and gets people back to some degree of normality I dont see the issue

Unless you are doing something they dont want other people to know

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:53 - May 5 with 1781 viewsmonytowbray

I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:51 - May 5 by Keno

Thanks, I'm glad you see the point I am making

You can be tracked and traced already, 1984 is alive and well and we live with it. For the majority of people it isn't an issue unless they are doing something they dont want other people to know about but similarly for a majority of people it can serve to protect them.

If using an app helps get on top of the virus, saves lives and gets people back to some degree of normality I dont see the issue

Unless you are doing something they dont want other people to know


I don’t think you understand the power of tech.

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I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:55 - May 5 with 1775 viewsvilanovablue

The government will be making the code open source so we'll soon know how secure/insecure it is. Pretty much all of government does this. I work in technology as a partner to a department and know it's out there if people wish to look at it.
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