| LATEST SCORE : Boris Johnson 0-194 Sir Keir Starmer 12:41 - May 6 with 14620 views | MaySixth |
Boris Johnson : “International comparisons are not being made”
Keir Starmer : “Here is a slide from last night showing the government making international comparisons”
Silence.
(FIVE) [Post edited 15 Jul 2020 19:50]
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:26 - May 8 with 694 views | Ryorry |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:10 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I've never once said you are an antisemite. In fact I have said the opposite.
What I have said is that you have engaged in, repeated and defended antisemitic tropes.
Your defence of this is that you don't agree with or recognise the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Well tough titty. That is the universally adopted definition.
Rather odd to drag this back up after months but I think I'll leave you to it. The barking at the moon DK is making an appearance and it never ends well. [Post edited 8 May 2020 12:14]
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I was going to say that the fact he's just linked us together gives the clue that what he's really irked about is JC & the antisemitism issue. Like you, I've never said DK is anti-Semitic but that he has defended JC (who I've also said I don't think is anti-Semitic, but who's failed to act sufficiently against those who are). |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:42 - May 8 with 677 views | GlasgowBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:26 - May 8 by Ryorry |
I was going to say that the fact he's just linked us together gives the clue that what he's really irked about is JC & the antisemitism issue. Like you, I've never said DK is anti-Semitic but that he has defended JC (who I've also said I don't think is anti-Semitic, but who's failed to act sufficiently against those who are). |
His defence of Pete Willsman saying that “68 rabbis were organised by the Israelis embassy to complain about severe anti-Semitism within Labour” was even worse.
I’m surprised he is wanting to revisit this stuff.
Starmer has shown already to be head and shoulders above Corbyn as leader and he’s only been in the job a few weeks.
Writing a front page leader in the Telegraph is something Corbyn would never have done. Especially on the subject of VE Day.
Starmer is trying to reach out to people he needs to convert to Labour to win an election. Corbyn only ever wanted to reach out to his own narrow base. |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:13 - May 8 with 664 views | midastouch |
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HxWdXMqoQtjDhhNGA/according-to-dale-carnegie-you
Copied from the above:
"Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right."
"... you won't convince them (even if you "hurl at them all the logic of a Plato or an Immanuel Kant"), and you'll just make them mad at you."
I would like to make one slight amendment to the above. Rather than it being nine times of out ten, I wonder if the 90% percentage is a tad optimistic. I would probably put it north of 95%, maybe even 99%!
I've yet to see two academics debate and one come out at the end and say, "Actually, you won me over there!" So I wouldn't it expect it to be much different on here either.
Sometimes it's perhaps best to just politely agree to disagree. That is unless you enjoy trying to fight fire with fire (a generally very unproductive use of time). Although, if that gets you off, then fair enough I guess!
I enjoy debate but I prefer polite debate (good manners do seem to be in short supply on here at times from a certain few). Sometimes I've dropped below that level (I hold my hand up!) and even felt the need to apologise afterwards (and felt better for doing so as well). But it just goes to show, it's fairly easy to get sucked into a counter productive ding dong on here (if you're not careful), even more so if it's something you feel strongly about. It might turn into a fiery exchange that you may regret afterwards. But I realise some probably get off on it. Each to their own.
I just want to end with this, sometimes saying sorry isn't a weakness, it can be a strength. Moreover, it can even help build bridges and respect towards those that you might have had past disagreements with. |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:35 - May 8 with 633 views | Darth_Koont |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:10 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I've never once said you are an antisemite. In fact I have said the opposite.
What I have said is that you have engaged in, repeated and defended antisemitic tropes.
Your defence of this is that you don't agree with or recognise the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Well tough titty. That is the universally adopted definition.
Rather odd to drag this back up after months but I think I'll leave you to it. The barking at the moon DK is making an appearance and it never ends well. [Post edited 8 May 2020 12:14]
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That doesn't actually contradict what I said.
You certainly have made the insinuation that I'm an antisemite and you're saying I repeat and defend antisemitic tropes. Then when I give you the evidence for what I'm actually saying you ignore that and keep smearing me.
The IHRA definition with those examples isn't (or certainly wasn't) universally adopted and it's often been hammered through despite many people including many Jewish people disagreeing with it. You know this so you're making some appeal to authority that doesn't exist. |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:42 - May 8 with 625 views | Darth_Koont |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:42 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
His defence of Pete Willsman saying that “68 rabbis were organised by the Israelis embassy to complain about severe anti-Semitism within Labour” was even worse.
I’m surprised he is wanting to revisit this stuff.
Starmer has shown already to be head and shoulders above Corbyn as leader and he’s only been in the job a few weeks.
Writing a front page leader in the Telegraph is something Corbyn would never have done. Especially on the subject of VE Day.
Starmer is trying to reach out to people he needs to convert to Labour to win an election. Corbyn only ever wanted to reach out to his own narrow base. |
No, I gave forensic detail about what Willsman could legitimately say about a real situation involving the rabbis, JLM that organised the letter and the Israeli embassy they've been intimately involved with. That's without even suggesting there's any wrongdoing in these relationships - just that the transparency and the honesty were lacking when someone like Willsman calls parts of that out.
You're saying it was all a trope by ignoring that evidence. And that I'm defending that trope.
This is exactly what I mean. You're being totally dishonest. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:50 - May 8 with 614 views | Darth_Koont |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:13 - May 8 by midastouch |
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HxWdXMqoQtjDhhNGA/according-to-dale-carnegie-you
Copied from the above:
"Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right."
"... you won't convince them (even if you "hurl at them all the logic of a Plato or an Immanuel Kant"), and you'll just make them mad at you."
I would like to make one slight amendment to the above. Rather than it being nine times of out ten, I wonder if the 90% percentage is a tad optimistic. I would probably put it north of 95%, maybe even 99%!
I've yet to see two academics debate and one come out at the end and say, "Actually, you won me over there!" So I wouldn't it expect it to be much different on here either.
Sometimes it's perhaps best to just politely agree to disagree. That is unless you enjoy trying to fight fire with fire (a generally very unproductive use of time). Although, if that gets you off, then fair enough I guess!
I enjoy debate but I prefer polite debate (good manners do seem to be in short supply on here at times from a certain few). Sometimes I've dropped below that level (I hold my hand up!) and even felt the need to apologise afterwards (and felt better for doing so as well). But it just goes to show, it's fairly easy to get sucked into a counter productive ding dong on here (if you're not careful), even more so if it's something you feel strongly about. It might turn into a fiery exchange that you may regret afterwards. But I realise some probably get off on it. Each to their own.
I just want to end with this, sometimes saying sorry isn't a weakness, it can be a strength. Moreover, it can even help build bridges and respect towards those that you might have had past disagreements with. |
All good points.
FWIW I know the argument can't be won. I'm just raising the evidence because it's important not to get sucked completely into a largely false narrative.
This stuff needs to be challenged. If it triggers the people who don't like the evidence then that's just something they need to deal with rather than blaming me. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:51 - May 8 with 610 views | GlasgowBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:42 - May 8 by Darth_Koont |
No, I gave forensic detail about what Willsman could legitimately say about a real situation involving the rabbis, JLM that organised the letter and the Israeli embassy they've been intimately involved with. That's without even suggesting there's any wrongdoing in these relationships - just that the transparency and the honesty were lacking when someone like Willsman calls parts of that out.
You're saying it was all a trope by ignoring that evidence. And that I'm defending that trope.
This is exactly what I mean. You're being totally dishonest. |
FFS Darth. Willsman said, with zero evidence to back the statement up, that "68 rabbis were organised by the Israeli embassy to complain about severe anti-Semitism within the Labour party".
He was suspended from the Labour party for making that antisemitic statement and you said "That's pretty accurate though".
That is you defending antisemitism. Not giving forensic detail.
Seriously I'm leaving it there. I'm not sure why you have decided to drag something up from last year but I'm not wasting my time with you on this any more today. [Post edited 8 May 2020 13:51]
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:57 - May 8 with 596 views | Darth_Koont |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:51 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
FFS Darth. Willsman said, with zero evidence to back the statement up, that "68 rabbis were organised by the Israeli embassy to complain about severe anti-Semitism within the Labour party".
He was suspended from the Labour party for making that antisemitic statement and you said "That's pretty accurate though".
That is you defending antisemitism. Not giving forensic detail.
Seriously I'm leaving it there. I'm not sure why you have decided to drag something up from last year but I'm not wasting my time with you on this any more today. [Post edited 8 May 2020 13:51]
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No, I gave you and others the evidence in that thread. You saying there's zero evidence is a lie.
Here's your homework. Go through the thread where I go into this in detail and say specifically what is untrue.
Let's see you address the evidence for once. And by all means take a few days so it fits into your busy schedule. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:47 - May 8 with 574 views | BrixtonBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 09:46 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Or people don’t spend 24/7 on here and have more commitments and things going on in their lives.
Ryorry, as I understand, lives in a remote area, has animals and lives a fairly self sufficient life. That takes a lot of maintenance,
For my part, I can be half way through having another pointless and unproductive ding dong with you and I’ll have the Mrs tell me we are taking the kids to x,y or z. Or it will be time for my daily run.
Some people either live on their own or with their girlfriend and their lives are not so chaotic or hectic.
This “disappearing when losing an argument” is rather silly. Winning or losing an argument in a football message board is irrelevant in the scheme of things. It’s only important to some obsessive posters who have to be right all of the time.
[Post edited 8 May 2020 9:57]
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No-one said anything about being on here 24/7. Or about legitimate life commitments. Straw man.
We all have things going on in our lives. I have absolutely no problem with that. I have them too.
It's the certain posters that REGULARLY get busy when the questions get tough. A pattern.
I didn't mention any names ...and you were not even part of this discussion, so not sure why you're talking about yourself.
"some obsessive posters who have to be right all of the time"?!?!?
The irony is absolutely flabbergasting. |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:52 - May 8 with 572 views | BrixtonBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 09:54 - May 8 by NewcyBlue |
So what? Maybe people feel the need to be courteous to tell you why they won’t be replying for a little while? So they tell you and go and do something more productive rather than arguing on a forum. I’d say rather than arguing the same points over and over, which isn’t uncommon on here, going out and doing something else is a good use of time. |
Again, I have absolutely no problem with this. All I'm talking about is posters who regularly do it to avoid answering difficult questions (a pattern builds up - which you might not have seen yourself, but others have noticed). There's no point having a debate if one party's going to do a runner. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 15:26 - May 8 with 550 views | Darth_Koont |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 12:05 - May 8 by NewcyBlue |
I’ve hardly followed you around.
I’ve been engaged in this thread.
None of my comments have been sarcastic.
I know the context of the comment, it’s all about Ryorry walking her dog in the middle of a thread. You need to rein it in really.
Own it. |
I'm not really convinced that you know much about what me and Ryorry have discussed over the past couple of years.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on how important your opinion is here. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 15:31 - May 8 with 539 views | NewcyBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:52 - May 8 by BrixtonBlue |
Again, I have absolutely no problem with this. All I'm talking about is posters who regularly do it to avoid answering difficult questions (a pattern builds up - which you might not have seen yourself, but others have noticed). There's no point having a debate if one party's going to do a runner. |
How many people are going to change their minds about something they are so entrenched in though? |  |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 15:40 - May 8 with 532 views | Ryorry |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:47 - May 8 by BrixtonBlue |
No-one said anything about being on here 24/7. Or about legitimate life commitments. Straw man.
We all have things going on in our lives. I have absolutely no problem with that. I have them too.
It's the certain posters that REGULARLY get busy when the questions get tough. A pattern.
I didn't mention any names ...and you were not even part of this discussion, so not sure why you're talking about yourself.
"some obsessive posters who have to be right all of the time"?!?!?
The irony is absolutely flabbergasting. |
"We all have things going on in our lives. I have absolutely no problem with that".
Then stop constantly banging on & baiting me for having had the courtesy to say (after hours and dozens of posts exchanged with you which you wouldn't accept because you disagreed with me & wanted to continue arguing) that I have to go and do XYZ. You've sometimes been downright abusive to me in those threads too, as was noticed by others who've pulled you up for it.
("some obsessive posters who have to be right all of the time"?!?!?")
"The irony is absolutely flabbergasting."
Yes, it certainly is. [Post edited 8 May 2020 15:55]
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 16:54 - May 8 with 468 views | BrixtonBlue |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 15:31 - May 8 by NewcyBlue |
How many people are going to change their minds about something they are so entrenched in though? |
This is an entirely different point, but a perfectly valid one. | |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:01 - May 21 with 326 views | MaySixth |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 16:54 - May 8 by BrixtonBlue |
This is an entirely different point, but a perfectly valid one. |
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| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 14:03 - May 21 with 319 views | sparks |
| FT : Boris Johnson 0-3 Sir Keir Starmer on 13:13 - May 8 by midastouch |
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HxWdXMqoQtjDhhNGA/according-to-dale-carnegie-you
Copied from the above:
"Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right."
"... you won't convince them (even if you "hurl at them all the logic of a Plato or an Immanuel Kant"), and you'll just make them mad at you."
I would like to make one slight amendment to the above. Rather than it being nine times of out ten, I wonder if the 90% percentage is a tad optimistic. I would probably put it north of 95%, maybe even 99%!
I've yet to see two academics debate and one come out at the end and say, "Actually, you won me over there!" So I wouldn't it expect it to be much different on here either.
Sometimes it's perhaps best to just politely agree to disagree. That is unless you enjoy trying to fight fire with fire (a generally very unproductive use of time). Although, if that gets you off, then fair enough I guess!
I enjoy debate but I prefer polite debate (good manners do seem to be in short supply on here at times from a certain few). Sometimes I've dropped below that level (I hold my hand up!) and even felt the need to apologise afterwards (and felt better for doing so as well). But it just goes to show, it's fairly easy to get sucked into a counter productive ding dong on here (if you're not careful), even more so if it's something you feel strongly about. It might turn into a fiery exchange that you may regret afterwards. But I realise some probably get off on it. Each to their own.
I just want to end with this, sometimes saying sorry isn't a weakness, it can be a strength. Moreover, it can even help build bridges and respect towards those that you might have had past disagreements with. |
Often the purpose of debate is not to win over the opponent- but to demonstrate the flaws in the opponent's position to people watching. THAT is where it is worthwhile and can have an impact. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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