| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform 10:19 - May 12 with 2327 views | Darth_Koont |
This is a damning verdict but still a pretty fair comment if you take a step back and look at the wider picture:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/10/anglo-american-coronavirus
There aren't any benefits to coronavirus in real terms. But it's been a pause button that's helped us reappraise the environment, people's worth in society, our dependence on each other etc. The rest of the world will also be taking that on board too.
But in the UK our extra remedial homework is to look in the mirror about our politics, government and the media that has clearly failed to hold power to account. Because here in the UK and the US the pandemic is providing a pretty thorough audit of how we operate publicly - and the results don't look good.
However our biggest failure would be not to demand better from those established institutions and structures. We should be pushing for reform pretty much throughout.
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:26 - May 12 with 1920 views | Radlett_blue |
It seems that generally, the authoritarian or totalitarian governments have handled the COVID-19 crisis better than the liberal democracies.
Make of that what you will. |  |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:34 - May 12 with 1895 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:26 - May 12 by Radlett_blue |
It seems that generally, the authoritarian or totalitarian governments have handled the COVID-19 crisis better than the liberal democracies.
Make of that what you will. |
Possibly. China certainly managed the Wuhan lockdown in a way that would be unimaginable in Western-style democracies.
But here it's more about how poor the UK and US have been even with extra weeks to respond compared to Italy, Spain and France. We're seeing what non-government looks like - which collectively we should have known we were voting in.
And here we're even worse than the States. Never mind Cygnus, Brexit was a dry run that should have told us all we needed to know about who and what we were voting for. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:35 - May 12 with 1888 views | NewcyBlue |
I honestly think Keir Starmer is going to hold the government to account.
I know people say we got the government we deserved due to the way people voted, but we really didn’t.
We need voters to be better informed, but they can’t be when social media is so full of crap. This is where the Labour Party needs to become more savvy, and dare I say a bit more ruthless.
The media has too much of an investment in politics. There are obviously issues around giving a platform to the likes of Farage, but as Callis and others have pointed out there is a massive rabbit hole on things such as YouTube.
Seeing the Trump briefing yesterday, and him running away, just shows how people can speak out. And that’s what we need. The milkshake thing in the election campaign, whilst amusing, did nothing to challenge the views. |  |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:35 - May 12 with 1884 views | footers |
Nah, just wait for greed and hubris to return to normal levels and all this will be forgotten. |  |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:47 - May 12 with 1850 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:35 - May 12 by NewcyBlue |
I honestly think Keir Starmer is going to hold the government to account.
I know people say we got the government we deserved due to the way people voted, but we really didn’t.
We need voters to be better informed, but they can’t be when social media is so full of crap. This is where the Labour Party needs to become more savvy, and dare I say a bit more ruthless.
The media has too much of an investment in politics. There are obviously issues around giving a platform to the likes of Farage, but as Callis and others have pointed out there is a massive rabbit hole on things such as YouTube.
Seeing the Trump briefing yesterday, and him running away, just shows how people can speak out. And that’s what we need. The milkshake thing in the election campaign, whilst amusing, did nothing to challenge the views. |
Re: Starmer, I hope so. But so much of this is changing the system rather than just working within it. I know it's chicken and egg and people will say it's all about getting elected - but surely we have seen enough of how our politics and media have developed over the decades (along with the social media that now spins around it) to understand that this isn't about another superficial and temporary change of cast members but a deeper and more lasting change.
If Starmer can be the double threat of someone who knows the Establishment and how to play the game but also wants to reform and change the status quo then that would be the perfect solution. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:04 - May 12 with 1826 views | NewcyBlue |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:47 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Re: Starmer, I hope so. But so much of this is changing the system rather than just working within it. I know it's chicken and egg and people will say it's all about getting elected - but surely we have seen enough of how our politics and media have developed over the decades (along with the social media that now spins around it) to understand that this isn't about another superficial and temporary change of cast members but a deeper and more lasting change.
If Starmer can be the double threat of someone who knows the Establishment and how to play the game but also wants to reform and change the status quo then that would be the perfect solution. |
Unfortunately it is about getting elected to be able to make change happen.
We had a chance to change the system with the AV referendum. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:04 - May 12 with 1822 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:35 - May 12 by footers |
Nah, just wait for greed and hubris to return to normal levels and all this will be forgotten. |
That's the biggest fear.
Certainly a well-functioning media as the de facto keepers of public record would prevent it being forgotten. But that requires them to be "forensic" and "effective" during normal times when it's always been far too easy for them to look the other way - or even be cheerleaders for the nonsense.
It worries me that Piers Morgan and Pip Schofield are now the cutting edge of public criticism and challenging politicians. But they've made an impact because our supposedly serious media literally isn't trusted to do their job. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:07 - May 12 with 1810 views | Herbivore |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:26 - May 12 by Radlett_blue |
It seems that generally, the authoritarian or totalitarian governments have handled the COVID-19 crisis better than the liberal democracies.
Make of that what you will. |
Are the likes of Germany and New Zealand totalitarian states? The countries that have handled it well have been proactive in their response, not like us and the US. [Post edited 12 May 2020 11:08]
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:18 - May 12 with 1774 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:04 - May 12 by NewcyBlue |
Unfortunately it is about getting elected to be able to make change happen.
We had a chance to change the system with the AV referendum. |
Yes, but we were presented with possibly the wors and least representative form of proportional representation.
Whether it's electoral reform, the idea of effective opposition, the government's responsibility to its citizens, the role of the media etc., we're having these defined for us in the Establishment's own terms and in their own interests.
Farage et al on the populist right have used it for their own narrow aims and prejudices, but you've got to give them credit for showing what can be done if you channel people's disillusionment and disenfranchisement as a protest that actually threatens the traditional power structures rather than trying to get the Establishment's permission to change the status quo.
More of that for good and protecting the most vulnerable in society and real priorities like the NHS, education, housing, local government funding etc. would be nice to see. And it would tie in with and support what you and others are doing within community. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:28 - May 12 with 1750 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:34 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Possibly. China certainly managed the Wuhan lockdown in a way that would be unimaginable in Western-style democracies.
But here it's more about how poor the UK and US have been even with extra weeks to respond compared to Italy, Spain and France. We're seeing what non-government looks like - which collectively we should have known we were voting in.
And here we're even worse than the States. Never mind Cygnus, Brexit was a dry run that should have told us all we needed to know about who and what we were voting for. |
Again, far too simplistic - especially when the much loved Covid death league is certainly not reliable.
If you wish to take the figures as gospel we are behind both Italy and Spain in deaths per million, we won't even mention Belgium who have tested more than Germany but have a death rate per million approaching x 9
It is obvious that population density is a massive swing factor in Covid cases, it doesn't take a genius to realise that any R rate over 1 is going to cause massive problems in countries with dense populations, international visitors and trade and areas with high BAME occupants, if you take that to its conclusion and if you do indeed wish to compare the Premier League of death counts then Ireland on 302 deaths per million against UK on 482 deaths per million is mentally bad [Post edited 12 May 2020 11:30]
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:39 - May 12 with 1714 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:28 - May 12 by Lord_Lucan |
Again, far too simplistic - especially when the much loved Covid death league is certainly not reliable.
If you wish to take the figures as gospel we are behind both Italy and Spain in deaths per million, we won't even mention Belgium who have tested more than Germany but have a death rate per million approaching x 9
It is obvious that population density is a massive swing factor in Covid cases, it doesn't take a genius to realise that any R rate over 1 is going to cause massive problems in countries with dense populations, international visitors and trade and areas with high BAME occupants, if you take that to its conclusion and if you do indeed wish to compare the Premier League of death counts then Ireland on 302 deaths per million against UK on 482 deaths per million is mentally bad [Post edited 12 May 2020 11:30]
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Sure, but Italy and Spain in particular were taken by surprise comparatively.
We certainly had extra weeks to work with. We dallied on our response and preparedness for whichever response we were going to take. Which has meant we've even been slower than them in flattening the curve and bringing the numbers down.
I had understanding for the UK government in the beginning and gave them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly didn't think it was political or treat it so at the beginning. Unfortunately they've let me down on that score since and shown how much it has been. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:46 - May 12 with 1691 views | gordon |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:28 - May 12 by Lord_Lucan |
Again, far too simplistic - especially when the much loved Covid death league is certainly not reliable.
If you wish to take the figures as gospel we are behind both Italy and Spain in deaths per million, we won't even mention Belgium who have tested more than Germany but have a death rate per million approaching x 9
It is obvious that population density is a massive swing factor in Covid cases, it doesn't take a genius to realise that any R rate over 1 is going to cause massive problems in countries with dense populations, international visitors and trade and areas with high BAME occupants, if you take that to its conclusion and if you do indeed wish to compare the Premier League of death counts then Ireland on 302 deaths per million against UK on 482 deaths per million is mentally bad [Post edited 12 May 2020 11:30]
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It's probably the case that our death toll is already the highest in Europe adjusted for population amongst the larger countries.
There is also a consensus that we're heading for a second wave of infection based on the absence of any test / trace / isolate infrastructure, the current level of infection, and the premature loosening of restrictions.
Spain is showing some signs of messing it up as well, but I'd be surprised if we weren't quite far ahead on death toll by the end of the year.
Good article here on what's going wrong:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/12/tories-lockdown-social-dis [Post edited 12 May 2020 11:47]
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:48 - May 12 with 1673 views | lowhouseblue |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:39 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Sure, but Italy and Spain in particular were taken by surprise comparatively.
We certainly had extra weeks to work with. We dallied on our response and preparedness for whichever response we were going to take. Which has meant we've even been slower than them in flattening the curve and bringing the numbers down.
I had understanding for the UK government in the beginning and gave them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly didn't think it was political or treat it so at the beginning. Unfortunately they've let me down on that score since and shown how much it has been. |
italy went in to national lock down on 9th march - our first stage of lockdown was announced on 16th march. there's a lot of re-writing of history going on, but in reality things happened over a very short period. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:59 - May 12 with 1648 views | BtreeBlueBlood |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:39 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Sure, but Italy and Spain in particular were taken by surprise comparatively.
We certainly had extra weeks to work with. We dallied on our response and preparedness for whichever response we were going to take. Which has meant we've even been slower than them in flattening the curve and bringing the numbers down.
I had understanding for the UK government in the beginning and gave them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly didn't think it was political or treat it so at the beginning. Unfortunately they've let me down on that score since and shown how much it has been. |
I guess there professional advisors have failed them even more so. |  | | |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:59 - May 12 with 1647 views | gordon |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:48 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
italy went in to national lock down on 9th march - our first stage of lockdown was announced on 16th march. there's a lot of re-writing of history going on, but in reality things happened over a very short period. |
If you are describing pubs, shops, restaurants, bars and cafes being open as a 'lockdown' then I think there is some re-writing of history going on here, yes! | | | |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:02 - May 12 with 1638 views | Herbivore |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:48 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
italy went in to national lock down on 9th march - our first stage of lockdown was announced on 16th march. there's a lot of re-writing of history going on, but in reality things happened over a very short period. |
You're the one rewriting history here. On the 16th of March, Johnson suggested people should stop going to pubs. That's not comparable to the national lockdown in Italy. It was another week before the current measures started, and it was the 26th of March where the legislation officially kicked in. [Post edited 12 May 2020 12:03]
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:03 - May 12 with 1631 views | Herbivore |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:59 - May 12 by gordon |
If you are describing pubs, shops, restaurants, bars and cafes being open as a 'lockdown' then I think there is some re-writing of history going on here, yes! |
“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:12 - May 12 with 1601 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:48 - May 12 by lowhouseblue |
italy went in to national lock down on 9th march - our first stage of lockdown was announced on 16th march. there's a lot of re-writing of history going on, but in reality things happened over a very short period. |
Oh my ...
Italy already had full quarantines or less restrictive lockdowns in affected regions from 22nd February with that being rolled out nationally over the next couple of weeks.
And you're saying our first stage of lockdown was 16th of March!!?? When we were just talking about it and still going to work!?? 20th of March was when we started it by closing schools and pubs etc.
It wasn't days as you're spinning it but at least several weeks for us to see what was happening.I know you've got a raging hard-on for the establishment but stop being so utterly disingenuous and dishonest. This isn't politics. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:22 - May 12 with 1575 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:12 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Oh my ...
Italy already had full quarantines or less restrictive lockdowns in affected regions from 22nd February with that being rolled out nationally over the next couple of weeks.
And you're saying our first stage of lockdown was 16th of March!!?? When we were just talking about it and still going to work!?? 20th of March was when we started it by closing schools and pubs etc.
It wasn't days as you're spinning it but at least several weeks for us to see what was happening.I know you've got a raging hard-on for the establishment but stop being so utterly disingenuous and dishonest. This isn't politics. |
I appreciate north of Italy locked down a bit earlier but I've just checked my whatsapp timeline. My mate in Italy could still go for a beer or coffee on 12th March albeit restricted hours.
Spain locked down on the 15th and Germany one day before us - although I hesitate to mention Germany because they are simply brilliant at everything.
However none of that was the point in my earlier post regarding Belgium and in particular Ireland. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:29 - May 12 with 1561 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 11:59 - May 12 by BtreeBlueBlood |
I guess there professional advisors have failed them even more so. |
Eh?
Well, you can probably criticise the Italian response too and how the information from China/WHO was responded to globally. But there are at least some inconsistencies and grey areas with that data.
But we watched while the Italians dealt with it on the fly and then we did the same ourselves 4 weeks later ... even when we could see for ourselves the same was already happening in London hospitals.
We're just not set up for government or making real decisions that's why we fumbled the response and only put two and two together at the last minute that we weren't prepared with the overall healthcare provision and PPE to ride out the pandemic. That picture somehow came to us as a fecking surprise a month too late. Certainly weeks later than it should have. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:35 - May 12 with 1533 views | gordon |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:22 - May 12 by Lord_Lucan |
I appreciate north of Italy locked down a bit earlier but I've just checked my whatsapp timeline. My mate in Italy could still go for a beer or coffee on 12th March albeit restricted hours.
Spain locked down on the 15th and Germany one day before us - although I hesitate to mention Germany because they are simply brilliant at everything.
However none of that was the point in my earlier post regarding Belgium and in particular Ireland. |
There's no doubt that our lockdown was late, and that has resulted in lots of unnecessary deaths.
More generally, the countries that are successful in the long-run will be the ones that have used the lockdown to a) get infections down to a manageable level and b) put in place the infrastructure necessary to carry out contact tracing on infections.
We haven't come close to doing either of those things. | | | |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:44 - May 12 with 1517 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 10:35 - May 12 by footers |
Nah, just wait for greed and hubris to return to normal levels and all this will be forgotten. |
Sadly I think that's right. I had the same response when I saw Lambert's comments about football changing for the better too. I can't see how society (and football) can change for the better they way things are now. |  |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:46 - May 12 with 1513 views | Darth_Koont |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:22 - May 12 by Lord_Lucan |
I appreciate north of Italy locked down a bit earlier but I've just checked my whatsapp timeline. My mate in Italy could still go for a beer or coffee on 12th March albeit restricted hours.
Spain locked down on the 15th and Germany one day before us - although I hesitate to mention Germany because they are simply brilliant at everything.
However none of that was the point in my earlier post regarding Belgium and in particular Ireland. |
Countries will be different depending on how and where the outbreak started and different social and healthcare factors. Also how deaths are reported which is particularly relevant to Belgium who appear to be addressing excess deaths in care homes and in the community more than we are.
So I'm not comparing one number against another to prove a point. I'm looking at our timeline and our curve which looks late to address the threat and slow in handling the response in comparison to most other developed countries. Which means more have died than necessary and we're risking more coming out of lockdown when we still haven't seen as much of a drop. | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:58 - May 12 with 1483 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:46 - May 12 by Darth_Koont |
Countries will be different depending on how and where the outbreak started and different social and healthcare factors. Also how deaths are reported which is particularly relevant to Belgium who appear to be addressing excess deaths in care homes and in the community more than we are.
So I'm not comparing one number against another to prove a point. I'm looking at our timeline and our curve which looks late to address the threat and slow in handling the response in comparison to most other developed countries. Which means more have died than necessary and we're risking more coming out of lockdown when we still haven't seen as much of a drop. |
What I will agree with is that we have relaxed the lockdown a fortnight too early and that the new directive is confusing to say the least.
Certainly not thought out.
I can't see why no one in government listened to Boris's latest address to the nation prior to it being broadcast and said "Hang on a minute, it's too complicated and vague, in fact it needs completely reworking" | |
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| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 13:00 - May 12 with 1472 views | pointofblue |
| A time to take stock - and be ready to reform on 12:58 - May 12 by Lord_Lucan |
What I will agree with is that we have relaxed the lockdown a fortnight too early and that the new directive is confusing to say the least.
Certainly not thought out.
I can't see why no one in government listened to Boris's latest address to the nation prior to it being broadcast and said "Hang on a minute, it's too complicated and vague, in fact it needs completely reworking" |
I think they probably did. I have the feeling the current government only listens to advise from those who they agree with and ignores the rest. |  |
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