| Sandy Cortmann RIP 23:09 - May 24 with 4136 views | factual_blue |
Arnhem veteran. One of the poor lads thrown into the catastrophe that was Operation Market Garden.
Montgomery and Browning were a disgrace. |  |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:45 - May 24 with 4100 views | Suffolktractor |
They were doing their best, just as everyone was. |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:54 - May 24 with 4095 views | reusersfreekicks |
Coincidentally just started reading Antony Beevor's book about Arnhem. Appears that the operation had little chance of success. |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 00:45 - May 25 with 4075 views | factual_blue |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:54 - May 24 by reusersfreekicks |
Coincidentally just started reading Antony Beevor's book about Arnhem. Appears that the operation had little chance of success. |
I read it last year.
It was the most god-almighty cock-up. Montgomery didn't even take on board the lesson from the Dutch army. At their staff college an attack through that part of the country was one of their exercises. Any student who proposed an attack up that single road was immediately failed.
The awfulness of it though was bought home to me in the 1980s. Paul the doorman at work was pretty odd - scared of his own shadow, laughed inappropriately, and tended to be the source of much humour. He was in his sixties.
Then a lad who was a bit of a military buff pointed out that Paul's belt bore a South Staffs regimental badge as the buckle.
Paul had been a young soldier at Arnhem and that experience had destroyed his mind. | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 00:48 - May 25 with 4072 views | factual_blue |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:45 - May 24 by Suffolktractor |
They were doing their best, just as everyone was. |
The troops were. Montgomery, on the other hand, was trying to build himself a place in history. | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 08:48 - May 25 with 4005 views | Guthrum |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:54 - May 24 by reusersfreekicks |
Coincidentally just started reading Antony Beevor's book about Arnhem. Appears that the operation had little chance of success. |
And yet, for all that - and despite the incompetence and wilful ignorance at the planning stage, particularly by Browning - Market Garden came surprisingly close to success.
Had the weather been better, more air support and resupply could have strenghtened the defence, particularly by destroying German tanks and artillery.
Had Nijmegen and its bridge fallen even hours earlier than it did, the northern end of the Arnhem bridge would still have been held by Frost's battalion of 1st Airborne, with Poles on the southern side and tanks could have crossed the river.
Had 1st Airborne's radios worked, they could have perhaps got more troops to the Arnhem bridgehead and defended it longer (the Oosterbeek cauldron did, after all, hold out until allied troops reached the south bank of the river).
If the attempted crossings by the Poles and the Dorsets on 23rd and 24th had been successful, the foothold could have been expanded, pontoon bridges put across the river and a base for the advance established.
Any one of those things and a road corridor through northern Holland and into Germany would have been opened and the operation judged a success, albeit a costly one. The war may have been shortened by several months. Perhaps Czechoslovakia and other places might not have fallen under Soviet domination (the demarcation wasn't agreed until Yalta, the following February, by which time the Western Allies had been bogged down in the Hurtgen Forest and fought the Battle of the Bulge). Like so many of those things, it was a clever idea, which failed due to bad planning, poor or careless senior leadership and misfortune, despite heroic efforts by those on the ground. |  |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 09:02 - May 25 with 3991 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Whilst volunteering at the IWM I had the privelige of meeting an Arnhem veteran who had actually been on the bridge with John Frost. He wore his red beret with obvious pride and was on a red mobility scooter.... but his memories were vivid and awe-inspiring. Incidentally I* also met some polish paratroopers at the same event and their memories were just as vivid - but less often heard.
The Boris Johnson like arrogance and incompetence of Montgomery was a tad worse than he is given credit for. The only reason the plan was adopted was because Patton's belief in fast action on an indefensible broad front was so successful that he had to be reigned in to get the Brits back into the action.
Market Garden lengthened the war by many months - but worse still by needlessly taking the war into Holland, just before a fearsome winter of unparalleled ferocity it caused the mass starvation of the honger vinter - and condemned tens of thousands of Dutch people to needlessly die.
On a more positive and little known note.... Audrey Hepburn was a resident of Arnhem... and the long-term health effect of prolonged starvation gave her the elfin figure that was so different from most of the movie stars of the post war era | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 09:26 - May 25 with 3969 views | Guthrum |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 09:02 - May 25 by ElephantintheRoom |
Whilst volunteering at the IWM I had the privelige of meeting an Arnhem veteran who had actually been on the bridge with John Frost. He wore his red beret with obvious pride and was on a red mobility scooter.... but his memories were vivid and awe-inspiring. Incidentally I* also met some polish paratroopers at the same event and their memories were just as vivid - but less often heard.
The Boris Johnson like arrogance and incompetence of Montgomery was a tad worse than he is given credit for. The only reason the plan was adopted was because Patton's belief in fast action on an indefensible broad front was so successful that he had to be reigned in to get the Brits back into the action.
Market Garden lengthened the war by many months - but worse still by needlessly taking the war into Holland, just before a fearsome winter of unparalleled ferocity it caused the mass starvation of the honger vinter - and condemned tens of thousands of Dutch people to needlessly die.
On a more positive and little known note.... Audrey Hepburn was a resident of Arnhem... and the long-term health effect of prolonged starvation gave her the elfin figure that was so different from most of the movie stars of the post war era |
Don't quite see how Market Garden caused the Dutch famine, given it was not cut off from Germany or under siege in the winter of 1944-5. I tend to blame the Nazi administration more. As you probably know, the British diverted some of their heavy bomber fleet to dropping food supplies to the Dutch at that time.
Also doubt it lengthened the war as such. The Western Allies were about to come up against the Siegfried Line and the Rhine barrier, with the Germans having far more reserves available (the divisions which fought against MG, plus those used up in the Battle of the Bulge). Their morale was a lot better and the Soviets much further from Berlin. The Remagen bridge debacle may not have occurred.
Most significantly, the Western Allies had not yet secured the approaches to Antwerp or retaken the Channel/North Sea ports, thus meaning most of their supplies still had to come from Normandy. This caused immense logistical problems and essentially was why things had rather ground to a halt. That was the real mistake in the autumn of 1944. | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 10:17 - May 25 with 3937 views | WD19 |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 23:54 - May 24 by reusersfreekicks |
Coincidentally just started reading Antony Beevor's book about Arnhem. Appears that the operation had little chance of success. |
Good book that, but Stalingrad is the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Currently reading his ‘Battle for Spain’ |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 11:12 - May 25 with 3916 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 09:26 - May 25 by Guthrum |
Don't quite see how Market Garden caused the Dutch famine, given it was not cut off from Germany or under siege in the winter of 1944-5. I tend to blame the Nazi administration more. As you probably know, the British diverted some of their heavy bomber fleet to dropping food supplies to the Dutch at that time.
Also doubt it lengthened the war as such. The Western Allies were about to come up against the Siegfried Line and the Rhine barrier, with the Germans having far more reserves available (the divisions which fought against MG, plus those used up in the Battle of the Bulge). Their morale was a lot better and the Soviets much further from Berlin. The Remagen bridge debacle may not have occurred.
Most significantly, the Western Allies had not yet secured the approaches to Antwerp or retaken the Channel/North Sea ports, thus meaning most of their supplies still had to come from Normandy. This caused immense logistical problems and essentially was why things had rather ground to a halt. That was the real mistake in the autumn of 1944. |
Let me enlighten you then. The Americans were charging across France virtually unopposed because the Germans had no means of defending a broad front - the war could have ended within weeks.
Holland wasn't even in the war at this stage - Market Garden and the lunatic scheme to go up one road that was very easily defended brought the active western front of WW2 into holland.
As Britain was never actually in the war, we have very little perception of the effect of total war on the ability to grow crops, nip off to the shops or to simply stay alive as you so 'admirably' demonstrate.
Having the harshest winter that century at a time when you are bombed out of your house and have no access to food makes for some tough living conditions. Incidentally it was the germans who organised mercy food convoys despite not having much supplies themselves. | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:00 - May 25 with 3896 views | Kievthegreat |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 11:12 - May 25 by ElephantintheRoom |
Let me enlighten you then. The Americans were charging across France virtually unopposed because the Germans had no means of defending a broad front - the war could have ended within weeks.
Holland wasn't even in the war at this stage - Market Garden and the lunatic scheme to go up one road that was very easily defended brought the active western front of WW2 into holland.
As Britain was never actually in the war, we have very little perception of the effect of total war on the ability to grow crops, nip off to the shops or to simply stay alive as you so 'admirably' demonstrate.
Having the harshest winter that century at a time when you are bombed out of your house and have no access to food makes for some tough living conditions. Incidentally it was the germans who organised mercy food convoys despite not having much supplies themselves. |
I'm sure Guthrum would like to be enlightened, but I highly doubt you're the one to do it. |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:13 - May 25 with 3890 views | Guthrum |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 11:12 - May 25 by ElephantintheRoom |
Let me enlighten you then. The Americans were charging across France virtually unopposed because the Germans had no means of defending a broad front - the war could have ended within weeks.
Holland wasn't even in the war at this stage - Market Garden and the lunatic scheme to go up one road that was very easily defended brought the active western front of WW2 into holland.
As Britain was never actually in the war, we have very little perception of the effect of total war on the ability to grow crops, nip off to the shops or to simply stay alive as you so 'admirably' demonstrate.
Having the harshest winter that century at a time when you are bombed out of your house and have no access to food makes for some tough living conditions. Incidentally it was the germans who organised mercy food convoys despite not having much supplies themselves. |
The Allies had outrun their supplies (as I said, still coming from Normandy). They couldn't keep up the advance beyond Belgium and eastern France. It had run out of steam, however disorganised their enemy. That was why Market Garden wasn't launched until late September - a drive towards the middle Rhine couldn't have started earlier than that, either.
That allowed the Germans to regroup and re-equip their troops - which is why 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions were in that part of the Netherlands at that moment.
When you say 'Holland wasn't even in the war', it had been invaded and occupied by the Germans since 1940. The mouth of the River Scheldt, leading to the major Belgian port of Antwerp, ran through Dutch territory. A lot of the frontier between Belgium/France and Germany is rough terrain, in the Netherlands, flat and open. There was going to be combat within its borders whatever happened.
In reality, very little of the Netherlands was directly affected by ground fighting in 1944 (tho some of the cities were bombed), just part of the south-east, Beveland and Walcheren. Much of it was left alone until the surrender in 1945.
Given the winter was unexpectedly harsh, how could that come into Allied calculations? | |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:23 - May 25 with 3861 views | BarcaBlue |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 10:17 - May 25 by WD19 |
Good book that, but Stalingrad is the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Currently reading his ‘Battle for Spain’ |
I'd be interested what you think of Battle for Spain. From the Republican side it's so difficult to get to grips with the different factions, just their initials and who's who make it tough to follow. Does he make a good job of it? |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:39 - May 25 with 3843 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 00:48 - May 25 by factual_blue |
The troops were. Montgomery, on the other hand, was trying to build himself a place in history. |
Everyone was. It wasn't exclusive to Montgomery. |  |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:57 - May 25 with 3828 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 10:17 - May 25 by WD19 |
Good book that, but Stalingrad is the best of the bunch in my opinion.
Currently reading his ‘Battle for Spain’ |
Yep agree - Stalingrad is immense in it's detailed description of the suffering that took place there. Mind you I find all Beevor's WW2 books to be extremely informative, and great testaments to the horrors of war [Post edited 25 May 2020 13:00]
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 13:07 - May 25 with 3812 views | Plums |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:57 - May 25 by reusersfreekicks |
Yep agree - Stalingrad is immense in it's detailed description of the suffering that took place there. Mind you I find all Beevor's WW2 books to be extremely informative, and great testaments to the horrors of war [Post edited 25 May 2020 13:00]
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Just finished Beevor’s Berlin which is excellent, now on James Holland’s second part of War in the West. Totally different to Beevor but a really good read. |  |
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| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 13:22 - May 25 with 3800 views | EdwardStone |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 11:12 - May 25 by ElephantintheRoom |
Let me enlighten you then. The Americans were charging across France virtually unopposed because the Germans had no means of defending a broad front - the war could have ended within weeks.
Holland wasn't even in the war at this stage - Market Garden and the lunatic scheme to go up one road that was very easily defended brought the active western front of WW2 into holland.
As Britain was never actually in the war, we have very little perception of the effect of total war on the ability to grow crops, nip off to the shops or to simply stay alive as you so 'admirably' demonstrate.
Having the harshest winter that century at a time when you are bombed out of your house and have no access to food makes for some tough living conditions. Incidentally it was the germans who organised mercy food convoys despite not having much supplies themselves. |
"As Britain was never actually in the war" ????? WTF does this mean???
Are you trying to say that the mainland of Great Britain was never invaded??
Or that we didn't take part??
Inarticulate or just plain wrong
You chose |  | | |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 13:49 - May 25 with 3781 views | WD19 |
| Sandy Cortmann RIP on 12:23 - May 25 by BarcaBlue |
I'd be interested what you think of Battle for Spain. From the Republican side it's so difficult to get to grips with the different factions, just their initials and who's who make it tough to follow. Does he make a good job of it? |
I’m approaching halfway through.....
He is making a good job of it so far - helped by the fact it is not a topic I know well so I am finding it interesting.
However, I will freely admit the blizzard of acronyms on the Republican side are not really sticking in my head. | | | |
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