| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:06 - Jun 8 with 2656 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
That’s a very thorough and balanced review.
Doesn’t point blame so much as show where lessons could be learned.
It doesn’t absolve the Govt but neither does it place a smoking gun in their hands. |  | |  |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:49 - Jun 8 with 2576 views | eireblue |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:06 - Jun 8 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
That’s a very thorough and balanced review.
Doesn’t point blame so much as show where lessons could be learned.
It doesn’t absolve the Govt but neither does it place a smoking gun in their hands. |
Unless of course you think the Government have a duty of care, and are responsible for their decision making, and protecting citizens.
The critical sentence in that article is
“It could and should have questioned the advice more, not least because other countries were acting after 9 March with greater urgency. But the “science” encouraged the UK to be relatively slow in imposing stringent measures. “
The U.K. had a PM that was busy getting divorced, not attending meetings, is known not to be detail oriented, and when Sage advice was, don’t shake hands, he was shaking hands.
What is not published is Government minutes. The Government balanced known information against unknown information, and knew some information was in-accurate, had a lackadaisical attitude, a bias towards doing something different to other countries, and moved too slowly, when others moved quicker.
The lesson to be learnt is to not have incompetent decision makers in Government. |  | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:59 - Jun 8 with 2557 views | Darth_Koont |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:49 - Jun 8 by eireblue |
Unless of course you think the Government have a duty of care, and are responsible for their decision making, and protecting citizens.
The critical sentence in that article is
“It could and should have questioned the advice more, not least because other countries were acting after 9 March with greater urgency. But the “science” encouraged the UK to be relatively slow in imposing stringent measures. “
The U.K. had a PM that was busy getting divorced, not attending meetings, is known not to be detail oriented, and when Sage advice was, don’t shake hands, he was shaking hands.
What is not published is Government minutes. The Government balanced known information against unknown information, and knew some information was in-accurate, had a lackadaisical attitude, a bias towards doing something different to other countries, and moved too slowly, when others moved quicker.
The lesson to be learnt is to not have incompetent decision makers in Government. |
"The lesson to be learnt is to not have incompetent decision makers in Government."
Absolutely. I've no doubt that the science including "best-guess" was available as other countries used it for their responses.
Our muddled and clumsy approach that alternated between inaction and frenzy is because we have a government that doesn't really think about much outside themselves and the "game". |  |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:13 - Jun 8 with 2520 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 11:49 - Jun 8 by eireblue |
Unless of course you think the Government have a duty of care, and are responsible for their decision making, and protecting citizens.
The critical sentence in that article is
“It could and should have questioned the advice more, not least because other countries were acting after 9 March with greater urgency. But the “science” encouraged the UK to be relatively slow in imposing stringent measures. “
The U.K. had a PM that was busy getting divorced, not attending meetings, is known not to be detail oriented, and when Sage advice was, don’t shake hands, he was shaking hands.
What is not published is Government minutes. The Government balanced known information against unknown information, and knew some information was in-accurate, had a lackadaisical attitude, a bias towards doing something different to other countries, and moved too slowly, when others moved quicker.
The lesson to be learnt is to not have incompetent decision makers in Government. |
Captain hindsight. |  |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:17 - Jun 8 with 2499 views | eireblue |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:13 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Captain hindsight. |
Not really, people were even calling for a lockdown on this site before the Government did it.
The advise SAGE did give to the Government was to clearly explain its policy, especially with respect to why the Government in the UK did something different to other Governments.
The U.K. Government never followed that advise.
I remember one poster being somewhat talked down to, in what I regarded as deeming and bullying way, when they suggested that the U.K. should follow Italy and lockdown.
So, not hindsight in any way shape or form.
I think you must be the one with the dizzy head. | | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:29 - Jun 8 with 2466 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:17 - Jun 8 by eireblue |
Not really, people were even calling for a lockdown on this site before the Government did it.
The advise SAGE did give to the Government was to clearly explain its policy, especially with respect to why the Government in the UK did something different to other Governments.
The U.K. Government never followed that advise.
I remember one poster being somewhat talked down to, in what I regarded as deeming and bullying way, when they suggested that the U.K. should follow Italy and lockdown.
So, not hindsight in any way shape or form.
I think you must be the one with the dizzy head. |
I don't doubt that someone was bullied on this site!
I don't recall too much outrage that we weren't in early lockdown, seems to have been exaggerated somewhat.
There were some people with that opinion, but certainly not a huge groundswell.
As you were. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:36 - Jun 8 with 2435 views | eireblue |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:29 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I don't doubt that someone was bullied on this site!
I don't recall too much outrage that we weren't in early lockdown, seems to have been exaggerated somewhat.
There were some people with that opinion, but certainly not a huge groundswell.
As you were. |
Excellent, once again you are in agreement with me, clearly not hindsight if some people had that opinion before the event.
I bid you a pleasant day. | | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 with 2424 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:36 - Jun 8 by eireblue |
Excellent, once again you are in agreement with me, clearly not hindsight if some people had that opinion before the event.
I bid you a pleasant day. |
People have lots of different opinions, that doesn't mean hindsight doesn't exist.
There was no groundswell of demand for an early lockdown.
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 with 2420 views | Herbivore |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:29 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I don't doubt that someone was bullied on this site!
I don't recall too much outrage that we weren't in early lockdown, seems to have been exaggerated somewhat.
There were some people with that opinion, but certainly not a huge groundswell.
As you were. |
Football in the UK took the decision to shut itself down over a week before lockdown became official policy. That would seem to suggest that actually there was quite aot of concern about the UK staying 'open for busi ess', even in quarters one wouldn't usually associate with social responsibility. |  |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:52 - Jun 8 with 2385 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Football in the UK took the decision to shut itself down over a week before lockdown became official policy. That would seem to suggest that actually there was quite aot of concern about the UK staying 'open for busi ess', even in quarters one wouldn't usually associate with social responsibility. |
That was around the time when the soft lockdown measures were brought in. The advice against all non essential travel and contact with others, the advice against socialising, the closure of pubs and other social venues. The football industry was effectively following suit.
People talk as if lockdown was the first we saw of any preventative action. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:55 - Jun 8 with 2359 views | eireblue |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
People have lots of different opinions, that doesn't mean hindsight doesn't exist.
There was no groundswell of demand for an early lockdown.
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Sorry, I didn’t think your OP “Captain Hindsight” was the start of a metaphysical discourse about the nature of hindsight and it’s existence.
However, I am not sure a groundswell is required, to negate an attribution of hindsight.
If someone was to argue for a thing before that thing happened, then that would not be a case of hindsight.
Correct, many opinions exist. Some opinions are correct.
The absence of a groundswell of demand, is not a blocker for doing something. | | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:55 - Jun 8 with 2364 views | Herbivore |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:52 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
That was around the time when the soft lockdown measures were brought in. The advice against all non essential travel and contact with others, the advice against socialising, the closure of pubs and other social venues. The football industry was effectively following suit.
People talk as if lockdown was the first we saw of any preventative action. |
People were first advised not to go to the pub on the 16th of March. Football fixtures were cancelled the weekend before that. When the football industry is behaving more responsibly than the government that gives you a sense of how poorly they handled it. There really is no such thing as 'soft lockdown' either, although if you were to use that term it would better describe the point we reached on the 23rd of March when businesses were finally instructed to close and any non essential trips out of the house were restricted. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:16 - Jun 8 with 2311 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:55 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
People were first advised not to go to the pub on the 16th of March. Football fixtures were cancelled the weekend before that. When the football industry is behaving more responsibly than the government that gives you a sense of how poorly they handled it. There really is no such thing as 'soft lockdown' either, although if you were to use that term it would better describe the point we reached on the 23rd of March when businesses were finally instructed to close and any non essential trips out of the house were restricted. |
You make a fair point on the football, although I think they knew that the govt would enter lockdown at anytime so acted in accordance.
I don't recall there being a groundswell of opposition re the lockdown timing, even from Labour. Maybe that's just my recollection. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:21 - Jun 8 with 2289 views | Herbivore |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:16 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
You make a fair point on the football, although I think they knew that the govt would enter lockdown at anytime so acted in accordance.
I don't recall there being a groundswell of opposition re the lockdown timing, even from Labour. Maybe that's just my recollection. |
I can recall it felt like we were waiting for the inevitable for a good couple of weeks. I'm not sure the football authorities knew the government's plans either, if they did then I'm not sure why Cheltenham didn't get the same message and went ahead with thousands of people mixing freely at the same time. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:32 - Jun 8 with 2250 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:21 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
I can recall it felt like we were waiting for the inevitable for a good couple of weeks. I'm not sure the football authorities knew the government's plans either, if they did then I'm not sure why Cheltenham didn't get the same message and went ahead with thousands of people mixing freely at the same time. |
I did feel inevitable, I recall that too. I just don't recall a big demand for it coming sooner.
Cheltenham did seem odd, but then again hundreds of thousands were happy to attend. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:32 - Jun 8 with 2251 views | clive_baker |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
People have lots of different opinions, that doesn't mean hindsight doesn't exist.
There was no groundswell of demand for an early lockdown.
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I remember there were lots of people questioning why we hadn't gone into lock down at least 1 week before we did. In the interests of balance, I'm not clued up enough on the science to conclude to what extent that week did damage etc, in the round, as I do remember a lot of talk of 'lock down fatigue' and getting the timing right as the government were pretty sure they had 1 shot at timing the 3 - 4 week extreme lock down appropriately.
I also think there was an element of lock down happening anyway, before it was enforced. My office closed 2 weeks before and sales of hand sanitiser etc was through the roof. |  |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:34 - Jun 8 with 2248 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:55 - Jun 8 by eireblue |
Sorry, I didn’t think your OP “Captain Hindsight” was the start of a metaphysical discourse about the nature of hindsight and it’s existence.
However, I am not sure a groundswell is required, to negate an attribution of hindsight.
If someone was to argue for a thing before that thing happened, then that would not be a case of hindsight.
Correct, many opinions exist. Some opinions are correct.
The absence of a groundswell of demand, is not a blocker for doing something. |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:40 - Jun 8 with 2219 views | Herbivore |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:32 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I did feel inevitable, I recall that too. I just don't recall a big demand for it coming sooner.
Cheltenham did seem odd, but then again hundreds of thousands were happy to attend. |
Perhaps people were happy to attend because the government was still very much in 'business as usual' mode, aside from promoting extra hand washing? Just a thought.
Given it seemed inevitable for some time, you do have to question what benefit there was in delaying. It does seem there was a somewhat myopic view shared by the government and its advisers that things weren't as bad as they were and that we should delay lockdown for as late as possible. Plenty at the time expressed concern about that and nearly 3 months on with the worst per capita death toll in the world it looks like we ballsed it up. | |
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| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 14:47 - Jun 8 with 2131 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 12:39 - Jun 8 by Marshalls_Mullet |
People have lots of different opinions, that doesn't mean hindsight doesn't exist.
There was no groundswell of demand for an early lockdown.
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Funny then how so many organisations had already stopped their operations, including the money-grabbing Premier League. When even they decided there was too much risk in continuing to operate, it was likely that govt would in the end have to do something.
Remember the description of the PM as someone who waits to see which way the crowd is running before rushing to the front and saying "follow me". |  | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 14:59 - Jun 8 with 2102 views | longtimefan |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:40 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
Perhaps people were happy to attend because the government was still very much in 'business as usual' mode, aside from promoting extra hand washing? Just a thought.
Given it seemed inevitable for some time, you do have to question what benefit there was in delaying. It does seem there was a somewhat myopic view shared by the government and its advisers that things weren't as bad as they were and that we should delay lockdown for as late as possible. Plenty at the time expressed concern about that and nearly 3 months on with the worst per capita death toll in the world it looks like we ballsed it up. |
Well I’d certainly already decided I wasn’t going to Bristol before the game was cancelled despite having tickets and coach booked. | | | |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 15:17 - Jun 8 with 2064 views | Oldsmoker |
| Interesting article about SAGE in the New Statesman on 13:21 - Jun 8 by Herbivore |
I can recall it felt like we were waiting for the inevitable for a good couple of weeks. I'm not sure the football authorities knew the government's plans either, if they did then I'm not sure why Cheltenham didn't get the same message and went ahead with thousands of people mixing freely at the same time. |
The general public started panic-buying loo-roll + hand sanitiser on w/e 7/8 March according to the newspaper reports I've found on google.
So, the public knew something was going to happen before the government did. |  |
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