| The current situation in Seattle on 10:07 - Jun 16 with 1294 views | StokieBlue |
That article cites the organisation Critical Resistance who have the cited aim of:
"national grassroots organization working to abolish policing, imprisonment, & surveillance while building a world without the prison industrial complex."
What incentive is there for bad people not to do bad things if you abolish imprisonment?
Reforms are clearly needed in many areas across law enforcement but total abolition?
SB |  |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 10:22 - Jun 16 with 1259 views | Johnny_Boy |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:07 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
That article cites the organisation Critical Resistance who have the cited aim of:
"national grassroots organization working to abolish policing, imprisonment, & surveillance while building a world without the prison industrial complex."
What incentive is there for bad people not to do bad things if you abolish imprisonment?
Reforms are clearly needed in many areas across law enforcement but total abolition?
SB |
From what I can evaluate from their website - people are doing the bad things because of the desperate situations they find themselves in. Poverty, lack of welfare, lack of employment, drug addiction. CR are trying to make a better environment to live in to try & address/tackle these Everyday situations for low-income, high poverty America.
EDIT:
Having re-read the manifesto page, they probably mean they want to abolish the current state of prisons & the whole controversial penal system. Not abolish prison or the police per-se
Defunding is what they want. To divert some of that annual $200m Police Budget towards local community grassroots funding which struggle to receive paltry amounts (in comparison) like $15,000
[Post edited 16 Jun 2020 13:22]
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| The current situation in Seattle on 10:38 - Jun 16 with 1206 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:07 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
That article cites the organisation Critical Resistance who have the cited aim of:
"national grassroots organization working to abolish policing, imprisonment, & surveillance while building a world without the prison industrial complex."
What incentive is there for bad people not to do bad things if you abolish imprisonment?
Reforms are clearly needed in many areas across law enforcement but total abolition?
SB |
Indeed.
This world without police and prisons idea is nonsense. |  |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 10:42 - Jun 16 with 1201 views | StokieBlue |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:22 - Jun 16 by Johnny_Boy |
From what I can evaluate from their website - people are doing the bad things because of the desperate situations they find themselves in. Poverty, lack of welfare, lack of employment, drug addiction. CR are trying to make a better environment to live in to try & address/tackle these Everyday situations for low-income, high poverty America.
EDIT:
Having re-read the manifesto page, they probably mean they want to abolish the current state of prisons & the whole controversial penal system. Not abolish prison or the police per-se
Defunding is what they want. To divert some of that annual $200m Police Budget towards local community grassroots funding which struggle to receive paltry amounts (in comparison) like $15,000
[Post edited 16 Jun 2020 13:22]
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That would imply rich and comfortable people never commit crimes which merit a jail sentence and that is clearly false.
Reforming the police is a must, abandoning it all together would be hugely problematic.
SB | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 10:49 - Jun 16 with 1195 views | Johnny_Boy |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:42 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
That would imply rich and comfortable people never commit crimes which merit a jail sentence and that is clearly false.
Reforming the police is a must, abandoning it all together would be hugely problematic.
SB |
I agree. But like all manifestos - you are going to find unworkable aims. It’s a question of where you can meet in the middle. | | | |
| The current situation in Seattle on 11:12 - Jun 16 with 1153 views | WeWereZombies |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:07 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
That article cites the organisation Critical Resistance who have the cited aim of:
"national grassroots organization working to abolish policing, imprisonment, & surveillance while building a world without the prison industrial complex."
What incentive is there for bad people not to do bad things if you abolish imprisonment?
Reforms are clearly needed in many areas across law enforcement but total abolition?
SB |
It is only in the last two hundred years that large scale prisons have been used for social control, whether they have been successful is moot but they have been accepted - and now there are corporations who are finding out ways to make a fair bit of money out of imprisoning people there is an incentive to put more people in prison...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon [Post edited 16 Jun 2020 11:22]
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| The current situation in Seattle on 11:29 - Jun 16 with 1133 views | WeWereZombies |
| The current situation in Seattle on 10:42 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
That would imply rich and comfortable people never commit crimes which merit a jail sentence and that is clearly false.
Reforming the police is a must, abandoning it all together would be hugely problematic.
SB |
Again, police forces as we recognise them are a relatively recent introduction, just three hundred a fifty years ago in the almost one million years homo sapiens have had some form of society:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police#Early_modern_policing | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 11:58 - Jun 16 with 1097 views | StokieBlue |
So your argument is that we didn't used to have them so it would be OK not to have them again?
If you take a look at the world 300 years ago it was murderous and deeply unfair, having a police force was one step along the road to changing that.
To say homo-sapiens had a form of society 1m years ago is a bit of a stretch given that we didn't evolve into that specific primate variant until about 300,000 years ago although I concede that the dates are ever-changing in this field.
SB | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 11:59 - Jun 16 with 1087 views | StokieBlue |
| The current situation in Seattle on 11:12 - Jun 16 by WeWereZombies |
It is only in the last two hundred years that large scale prisons have been used for social control, whether they have been successful is moot but they have been accepted - and now there are corporations who are finding out ways to make a fair bit of money out of imprisoning people there is an incentive to put more people in prison...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon [Post edited 16 Jun 2020 11:22]
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I didn't say we needed to have large scale prisons but we need some form of prison for some cases. To abolish them entirely as per the statement I cited isn't feasible in my opinion.
Citing how things were 200 years ago isn't really helpful. We were just sticking offenders on a boat and dumping them on remote islands then, hardly something we want to go back to.
SB | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 12:06 - Jun 16 with 1067 views | WeWereZombies |
| The current situation in Seattle on 11:58 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
So your argument is that we didn't used to have them so it would be OK not to have them again?
If you take a look at the world 300 years ago it was murderous and deeply unfair, having a police force was one step along the road to changing that.
To say homo-sapiens had a form of society 1m years ago is a bit of a stretch given that we didn't evolve into that specific primate variant until about 300,000 years ago although I concede that the dates are ever-changing in this field.
SB |
I don't really have an argument, rather an appeal to take a broader view on the matter. I would beg to differ on the view that having a police force could be viewed as a step on the road to making this World less murderous and unfair; because less murderous and unfair for one section of society is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other sections of society. And even if reform is possible to minimise that we still have the problem of less murderous and unfair for homo sapiens is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other species.
You got me on the million years of society though, I was just being provocative and have no evidence for early man being a social animal. | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 12:09 - Jun 16 with 1060 views | StokieBlue |
| The current situation in Seattle on 12:06 - Jun 16 by WeWereZombies |
I don't really have an argument, rather an appeal to take a broader view on the matter. I would beg to differ on the view that having a police force could be viewed as a step on the road to making this World less murderous and unfair; because less murderous and unfair for one section of society is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other sections of society. And even if reform is possible to minimise that we still have the problem of less murderous and unfair for homo sapiens is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other species.
You got me on the million years of society though, I was just being provocative and have no evidence for early man being a social animal. |
" I would beg to differ on the view that having a police force could be viewed as a step on the road to making this World less murderous and unfair; because less murderous and unfair for one section of society is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other sections of society."
This is of course true, however I would think that in the majority of cases people are punished for their crimes more than they were 300 years ago where the mob rule was common as was avoiding consequences all together if you had the right standing or were feared.
What would you propose instead of a police force? Who would be called when a madman with a gun is running around a Seattle school shooting people? Often those cases have nothing to do with social standing or unfairness, it's just a lone lunatic wanting to kill people.
SB | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 12:09 - Jun 16 with 1059 views | LankHenners |
| The current situation in Seattle on 11:59 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
I didn't say we needed to have large scale prisons but we need some form of prison for some cases. To abolish them entirely as per the statement I cited isn't feasible in my opinion.
Citing how things were 200 years ago isn't really helpful. We were just sticking offenders on a boat and dumping them on remote islands then, hardly something we want to go back to.
SB |
I may be wrong on this specific example, but usually when people say 'abolish' regarding prisons, the police etc., they mean 'abolish in its current form' rather than just get rid altogether.
With prisons, that usually goes hand in hand with policy proposals such as legalising marijuana or suggesting a restructuring of parts of the justice system so minor offences carry community service terms rather than a jail sentence (see yesterday's example of the pissing man given 14 days when pretty much everyone said doing some community work would be a better use of everyone's time and resources). This would help prisons from becoming clogged up with people who, on balance, don't really deserve to be there and allow more serious cases to be dealt with properly (see: trans women charged with violence/rape transitioning before sentencing then getting put in a woman's prison and attacking fellow inmates which then gets pushed onto the trans rights argument rather than where it should be - the prison service not being able to adequately deal with a complex situation). |  |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 12:22 - Jun 16 with 1039 views | WeWereZombies |
| The current situation in Seattle on 12:09 - Jun 16 by StokieBlue |
" I would beg to differ on the view that having a police force could be viewed as a step on the road to making this World less murderous and unfair; because less murderous and unfair for one section of society is not necessarily less murderous and unfair for other sections of society."
This is of course true, however I would think that in the majority of cases people are punished for their crimes more than they were 300 years ago where the mob rule was common as was avoiding consequences all together if you had the right standing or were feared.
What would you propose instead of a police force? Who would be called when a madman with a gun is running around a Seattle school shooting people? Often those cases have nothing to do with social standing or unfairness, it's just a lone lunatic wanting to kill people.
SB |
' I would think that in the majority of cases people are punished for their crimes more than they were 300 years ago'
Weren't they lucky back then to be transported to Australia for stealing a loaf of bread or trapping a rabbit on the property of the landed gentry? I mean, they got oranges and sunshine...
I am not proposing any alternative to a police force, just trying to open up what I see as a narrow debate. I would also say that the police would not be needed to be called to a school if a lone lunatic were not able to acquire a gun easily, if the lone lunatic had been identified as a potential problem and effectively delivered therapy, if that lone lunatic had not been excluded by an atomised society but had been integrated and developed more fully in a more socialised society. | |
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| The current situation in Seattle on 12:23 - Jun 16 with 1039 views | StokieBlue |
| The current situation in Seattle on 12:09 - Jun 16 by LankHenners |
I may be wrong on this specific example, but usually when people say 'abolish' regarding prisons, the police etc., they mean 'abolish in its current form' rather than just get rid altogether.
With prisons, that usually goes hand in hand with policy proposals such as legalising marijuana or suggesting a restructuring of parts of the justice system so minor offences carry community service terms rather than a jail sentence (see yesterday's example of the pissing man given 14 days when pretty much everyone said doing some community work would be a better use of everyone's time and resources). This would help prisons from becoming clogged up with people who, on balance, don't really deserve to be there and allow more serious cases to be dealt with properly (see: trans women charged with violence/rape transitioning before sentencing then getting put in a woman's prison and attacking fellow inmates which then gets pushed onto the trans rights argument rather than where it should be - the prison service not being able to adequately deal with a complex situation). |
Well that's not the definition of abolish but if that is how people are using it then that's slightly different.
Certainly agree there needs to be wholesale reform of the prison system though.
SB | |
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