| Trump or Biden? on 10:27 - Jul 4 with 1740 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump or Biden? on 09:18 - Jul 4 by Darth_Koont |
Pretty delusional given how hell-bent the PLP and Labour Party HQ were at briefing against and campaigning against Corbyn and the members.
If the centrists had pulled anything like in the same direction then maybe we wouldn't be seeing a continuation of the same old inequalities and injustices. |
It's not anywhere near as binary as that - both sides have to accept responsibility for what went wrong. |  |
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| Trump or Biden? on 10:50 - Jul 4 with 1724 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump or Biden? on 10:27 - Jul 4 by tractordownsouth |
It's not anywhere near as binary as that - both sides have to accept responsibility for what went wrong. |
You're joking aren't you?
The Labour Party right-wingers don't accept any responsibility. That would involve them facing up to how they've acted against the democratic wishes of the membership. And when I say "acted", I mean lied, cheated and stolen to get their way.
I'm more than happy to leave their version of the Labour Party to them and watch them pointlessly jockey for position with the LibDems. |  |
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| Trump or Biden? on 12:30 - Jul 4 with 1689 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump or Biden? on 10:50 - Jul 4 by Darth_Koont |
You're joking aren't you?
The Labour Party right-wingers don't accept any responsibility. That would involve them facing up to how they've acted against the democratic wishes of the membership. And when I say "acted", I mean lied, cheated and stolen to get their way.
I'm more than happy to leave their version of the Labour Party to them and watch them pointlessly jockey for position with the LibDems. |
Incredibly broad brush to tar everyone with. I’m on the centre/right of the Labour Party and I’m more than happy to admit that the actions of those who refused to give Corbyn a chance in 2015 and the decision to adopt the referendum policy cost the party dearly. You’ll find some that don’t accept that and they should do.
Likewise, some on the left of the party accept that Corbyn’s unpopularity and lack of compromise with the 2019 economic policies were damaging, and are happy to compromise themselves by supporting a leader taking the party in a more mainstream direction. You’ll also find some who blame the “Israel lobby”, the officials in the leaked report (even though they’d left their posts in 2019) and use mental gymnastics to spin the results as anything other than a failure.
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| Trump or Biden? on 13:17 - Jul 4 with 1656 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump or Biden? on 12:30 - Jul 4 by tractordownsouth |
Incredibly broad brush to tar everyone with. I’m on the centre/right of the Labour Party and I’m more than happy to admit that the actions of those who refused to give Corbyn a chance in 2015 and the decision to adopt the referendum policy cost the party dearly. You’ll find some that don’t accept that and they should do.
Likewise, some on the left of the party accept that Corbyn’s unpopularity and lack of compromise with the 2019 economic policies were damaging, and are happy to compromise themselves by supporting a leader taking the party in a more mainstream direction. You’ll also find some who blame the “Israel lobby”, the officials in the leaked report (even though they’d left their posts in 2019) and use mental gymnastics to spin the results as anything other than a failure.
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The Labour centre-right also didn't stand up for Corbyn being smeared and demonised by the media as it suited their factional agenda.
So much so that they joined in and gave it a legitimacy the anti-Corbyn campaign didn't deserve. It was an utterly shameful performance by so-called supporters of democracy not to mention left-wing values.
They need to pull their heads out of their @rses and work out what they stand for and who they're supposed to represent.
I'll be voting Green until then. | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 13:24 - Jul 4 with 1644 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump or Biden? on 13:17 - Jul 4 by Darth_Koont |
The Labour centre-right also didn't stand up for Corbyn being smeared and demonised by the media as it suited their factional agenda.
So much so that they joined in and gave it a legitimacy the anti-Corbyn campaign didn't deserve. It was an utterly shameful performance by so-called supporters of democracy not to mention left-wing values.
They need to pull their heads out of their @rses and work out what they stand for and who they're supposed to represent.
I'll be voting Green until then. |
So you accept that both have to take responsibility then? | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 13:44 - Jul 4 with 1634 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump or Biden? on 13:24 - Jul 4 by tractordownsouth |
So you accept that both have to take responsibility then? |
Of course mistakes were made and the "left" aren't blameless. But the official Labour report didn't share responsibility. It entirely whitewashed the factionalism on the right that was against the leadership and the members. And it ducked the issue over the media no doubt because that was the arena where there was most collusion.
The irony was that the failed Brexit position was Starmer's baby and he still supported that position after the election. But so effectively had the centrists briefed against the leadership that as far as the media and the public were concerned this position was dead on arrival as another example of Corbyn's "muddled thinking".
You need to take the lesson that a Labour party that wants to be progressive, representative and democratic can't poison the well of public debate. I also have no desire to support a Tory Lite party that is going to play up to rightwing populist talking points over culture, nationality and foreign policy. Let alone look the other way re: social and economic inequality.
I see exactly where this is heading. | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 14:58 - Jul 4 with 1599 views | SpruceMoose |
| Trump or Biden? on 08:40 - Jul 4 by 26_Paz |
Personally, I’d like to see Trump win (won’t be a popular statement on here) but I think you’re right. He’s in a world of trouble. Corona has created a perfect storm for him. His greatest selling point was the economy and jobs figures, wiped out. Any leader would be in trouble fighting an election right off the back of this mess (all will make wrong decisions somewhere along the line which can be highlighted by opponents) throw in the world’s worst corona stats and some pretty poor virus management and it’s Biden’s to lose. |
Why would you like to see that Paz? I have to say I'm getting a little suspicious of your admiration for racist, bigoted and aggressive world leaders. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Trump or Biden? on 18:56 - Jul 4 with 1547 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump or Biden? on 13:44 - Jul 4 by Darth_Koont |
Of course mistakes were made and the "left" aren't blameless. But the official Labour report didn't share responsibility. It entirely whitewashed the factionalism on the right that was against the leadership and the members. And it ducked the issue over the media no doubt because that was the arena where there was most collusion.
The irony was that the failed Brexit position was Starmer's baby and he still supported that position after the election. But so effectively had the centrists briefed against the leadership that as far as the media and the public were concerned this position was dead on arrival as another example of Corbyn's "muddled thinking".
You need to take the lesson that a Labour party that wants to be progressive, representative and democratic can't poison the well of public debate. I also have no desire to support a Tory Lite party that is going to play up to rightwing populist talking points over culture, nationality and foreign policy. Let alone look the other way re: social and economic inequality.
I see exactly where this is heading. |
The leaks talked mainly about the 2017 election, not 2019, and I (as well as many others) fully accept the Brexit position came mainly from the social democrat wing.
How is the current leadership "Tory-Lite?" I don't think you need to worry about turning a blind eye to inequality. | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 20:20 - Jul 4 with 1531 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump or Biden? on 18:56 - Jul 4 by tractordownsouth |
The leaks talked mainly about the 2017 election, not 2019, and I (as well as many others) fully accept the Brexit position came mainly from the social democrat wing.
How is the current leadership "Tory-Lite?" I don't think you need to worry about turning a blind eye to inequality. |
They turned a blind eye to structural inequality last time they were in power so what's different now?
Given the bitterness of their opposition to the left, even when the Tory government is getting steadily worse and worse, it's apparent that the Blairites have learnt nothing.
Edit: And the Labour right spent over 4 years briefing against the leadership. [Post edited 4 Jul 2020 20:22]
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| Trump or Biden? on 00:54 - Jul 5 with 1487 views | flimflam |
It will be a rerun of the UK election. The Democrats will believe they can win and then get smashed.
Hilary Clinton had an even bigger lead last time and that went well for her. Polls mean nothing and I still find it unbelievable that so much is pinned on them. |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 01:32 - Jul 5 with 1467 views | SpruceMoose |
| Trump or Biden? on 00:54 - Jul 5 by flimflam |
It will be a rerun of the UK election. The Democrats will believe they can win and then get smashed.
Hilary Clinton had an even bigger lead last time and that went well for her. Polls mean nothing and I still find it unbelievable that so much is pinned on them. |
FFS my original post was deleted when I tried to edit it.
Basically I said:
You're wrong about Clinton's poll lead. Clinton led national polls by an average of about 4.0 points four months before the 2016 election, and 3.8 points on Election Day itself.
Biden currently leads Trump nationally 50.9 percent to 41.3 percent (a margin of 9.6 points). In state-by-state polling averages, Biden currently leads in states worth 368 electoral votes, far more than the 270 needed to win. Clinton was widely loathed on the left and right in a way that Biden just isn't. Your Biden to Clinton comparison therefore was not only wrong, but also irrelevant.
If 'Democrats to be smashed' is your opinion then that's fine but it's an ignorant one. Trump won in 2016 by a few tens of thousands of votes. It was close then and it'll be close this year (thanks to how the US electoral system is structured). Polls are nothing more than a snapshot in time but there are no indications anywhere that Democrats are about to get 'smashed'. They weren't even smashed in the most recent midterms either - they took control of the House.
It's tiring for people like me who are invested in this election and have taken the time to try and understand all the potential permutations to keep reading these kind of lazy uninformed opinions. [Post edited 5 Jul 2020 2:36]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Trump or Biden? on 02:50 - Jul 5 with 1425 views | phillymark |
| Trump or Biden? on 18:21 - Jul 3 by SpruceMoose |
Family in Kansas are getting several calls a day from the Trump team. In Kansas. Kansas shouldn't even be a concern for them.
I think team Trump are starting to panic. But like Lank said above, election is still a long way off. Let's be honest though, Trump hasn't surrounded himself with astute political geniuses, he's working with the dregs. I'm not sure they have the talent required to turn this around. He seens to think his only play is to ramp up the racism. That will appeal to his cult, but who else is he winning over with that argument? [Post edited 3 Jul 2020 18:28]
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Kansas isn't a Trump problem.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/kansas/
but it might be a senate problem for the Republicans
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/senate/kansas/
Also Trump has unlimited money so there's a danger in reading too much into where he is spending. |  | | |
| Trump or Biden? on 02:58 - Jul 5 with 1422 views | phillymark |
| Trump or Biden? on 00:54 - Jul 5 by flimflam |
It will be a rerun of the UK election. The Democrats will believe they can win and then get smashed.
Hilary Clinton had an even bigger lead last time and that went well for her. Polls mean nothing and I still find it unbelievable that so much is pinned on them. |
not true about Hillary. Biden has about a 3-4% higher gap than Hillay did. There also seems to be fewer undecideds this time - Monmouth Poll had Biden up 53-41 yesterday, Yougov had it 45-40 (2 days before they had it 49-40). | | | |
| Trump or Biden? on 08:30 - Jul 5 with 1371 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump or Biden? on 00:54 - Jul 5 by flimflam |
It will be a rerun of the UK election. The Democrats will believe they can win and then get smashed.
Hilary Clinton had an even bigger lead last time and that went well for her. Polls mean nothing and I still find it unbelievable that so much is pinned on them. |
Have you looked at the numbers? Trump only realistically has 3 or 4 states he can gain, and he won 3 swing states by less than 1%, so he won't he won't be smashing anyone
[Post edited 5 Jul 2020 8:35]
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| Trump or Biden? on 11:36 - Jul 5 with 1301 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Trump or Biden? on 08:40 - Jul 4 by 26_Paz |
Personally, I’d like to see Trump win (won’t be a popular statement on here) but I think you’re right. He’s in a world of trouble. Corona has created a perfect storm for him. His greatest selling point was the economy and jobs figures, wiped out. Any leader would be in trouble fighting an election right off the back of this mess (all will make wrong decisions somewhere along the line which can be highlighted by opponents) throw in the world’s worst corona stats and some pretty poor virus management and it’s Biden’s to lose. |
Your first sentence is astonishing and makes me wonder what sort of world you want to live in? One where the most powerful country in the world is run by a serial liar, with no sense of compassion, with no insight into his own psychological failings, someone who would prefer to see his own compatriots die rather than take responsibility, a complete climate change denier, someone who is most likely in Putin's pocket. He is an immoral idiot and you want him to stay as president of the USA. In my view his winning is the biggest danger to world stability for decades.
And you want him to win. Ffs |  | | |
| Trump or Biden? on 11:49 - Jul 5 with 1287 views | Oldsmoker |
And Kanye West has announced he's also running for President in 2020.
I have no idea why - perhaps his wife wants to be first lady.
America needs to start listening to its adults before they all vanish up their own ar*es. |  |
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| Trump or Biden? on 12:06 - Jul 5 with 1266 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Trump or Biden? on 11:49 - Jul 5 by Oldsmoker |
And Kanye West has announced he's also running for President in 2020.
I have no idea why - perhaps his wife wants to be first lady.
America needs to start listening to its adults before they all vanish up their own ar*es. |
I suspect he is trying to split the BAME vote in order to assist Trump. |  |
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| Trump or Biden? on 12:14 - Jul 5 with 1255 views | Oldsmoker |
| Trump or Biden? on 12:06 - Jul 5 by Tangledupin_Blue |
I suspect he is trying to split the BAME vote in order to assist Trump. |
West better start contacting the individual states now so his name is on the ballot paper otherwise his supporters will have to write his name in.
Is that Can-yee or Kan-yea because if you don't spell it correcly it won't count as a vote for Kim Kardashians husband.
He hasn't thought this through has he. | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 23:14 - Jul 5 with 1183 views | Oldsmoker |
It beats me how Kanye West can find the time to run for President as he really needs to concentrate on publicising his new album which is due for release very soon. | |
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| Trump or Biden? on 18:28 - Jul 14 with 1063 views | tractordownsouth |
Economist polling now has it at 92% of a Biden victory - it was 89% the other day.
Michigan and Wisconsin are now "very likely" Biden wins after previously being "likely". Similarly, North Carolina is now "likely" after being a tossup and Iowa is now also a tossup, despite being somewhere Trump should have sewn up.
Not looking good for the Donald
https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president | |
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| Trump or Biden? (US Election 2020 Thread) on 23:06 - Aug 8 with 965 views | tractordownsouth |
The national polls are narrowing slightly but Biden still has a healthy lead both nationally and in the swing states.
The Economist is now considering Texas as a tossup (no candidate has a 65% chance of victory) with Trump the most likely winner, and puts Ohio and Georgia on exactly 50/50 North Carolina has also moved into the 'Likely Biden' column. I don't think any of those 4 will flip but Biden doesn't need them, so the fact they're so tight is a positive.
Biden will have to come out of his basement at some point soon and then it'll be a case of who can make the fewest gaffes. But with such a healthy Democrat lead, Trump has far less room for manouvre.
https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president | |
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| Trump or Biden? (US Election 2020 Thread) on 01:19 - Aug 9 with 904 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump or Biden? (US Election 2020 Thread) on 23:06 - Aug 8 by tractordownsouth |
The national polls are narrowing slightly but Biden still has a healthy lead both nationally and in the swing states.
The Economist is now considering Texas as a tossup (no candidate has a 65% chance of victory) with Trump the most likely winner, and puts Ohio and Georgia on exactly 50/50 North Carolina has also moved into the 'Likely Biden' column. I don't think any of those 4 will flip but Biden doesn't need them, so the fact they're so tight is a positive.
Biden will have to come out of his basement at some point soon and then it'll be a case of who can make the fewest gaffes. But with such a healthy Democrat lead, Trump has far less room for manouvre.
https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president |
The problem with politics (UK and US) is that the most involved see it as a big game. | |
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