| How much trust do you have? 22:58 - Jul 9 with 2952 views | Coastalblue |
About anything? I feel like virtually anything I read now or hear through the media I have to do my own fact checking before I can actually give it any weight. Even stuff said to me by friends and family, who I would have trusted implicitly at one time I now tend to take with a pinch of salt most of the time unless I know where they are getting their information from.
I'm sure I am getting more cynical as I age, but I do feel even ten years ago if I read something there was likely to be at least a semblance of truth or facts involved, now the balance seems to be the other way around.
Is it just me, or do other feel the same? For those over say 30, do you feel it's a lot worse now than it used to be even taking out the obvious fake news and social media cr4p that gets posted as facts?
Maybe I'm just turning into a bitter cynical old man slowly, but it does get a bit wearing at times never being able to ever take anything at face value. |  |
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| How much trust do you have? on 10:47 - Jul 10 with 605 views | Darth_Koont |
| How much trust do you have? on 07:00 - Jul 10 by WeWereZombies |
I tend to trust Wikipedia, in part because they make declarations when people contribute to a page and the Wikipedia guidelines are not completely adhered to. I have also had experience of being on the receiving end of a warning message from their legal head, not because what I added to a page was incorrect but because it had been challenged by the subject and I couldn't go back to the source for confirmation as he is now deceased. That being said, on a recent thread I started a link to TruePublica was posted and I could not find a Wikipedia page to ascertain the provenance of this online publication, most of the contributors did not have Wikipedia pages but one that did was branded a conspiracy theorist. However the article that was linked was not by her and did share one or two themes with famous open letter from someone a little further to the right on the political spectrum:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/why-i-have-resigned-from-telegr [Post edited 10 Jul 2020 7:22]
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Yes, I think Wikipedia is underrated as a source. As it's open source it can be abused but it also means the truth has a fighting chance as well. And the citations are excellent at linking to trusted primary sources. |  |
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| How much trust do you have? on 10:48 - Jul 10 with 605 views | DebsyAngel |
Hardly any at all in anything or anyone sadly. And I find the older I get the more cynical I become. You get hardly any clear facts of anything now, and a lot of times people or situations are over complicated which confuse people and I never trust that. And the less I can say about doctors or *$%*$% politicians the better... |  | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:50 - Jul 10 with 596 views | Libero |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:48 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
Hardly any at all in anything or anyone sadly. And I find the older I get the more cynical I become. You get hardly any clear facts of anything now, and a lot of times people or situations are over complicated which confuse people and I never trust that. And the less I can say about doctors or *$%*$% politicians the better... |
Sorry, but, you don't trust medical Doctors? |  | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:54 - Jul 10 with 586 views | Darth_Koont |
| How much trust do you have? on 23:30 - Jul 9 by SpruceMoose |
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly identify with what you're saying.
I think that because of the internet, information gathering these days is fast and cheap, and that alters our relationship to knowledge.
I'm currently reading a book about rewilding, and several times a chapter I'm finding myself Googling an unfamiliar Maaasai word or scientific term I've not come across before, and it literally takes me seconds to do so. This is obviously a wonderful gift to humanity but it comes at a price.
25 years ago, reading a similar book in my teens all these checks would most likely have required me to take a trip to the library to look things up, to broaden my reading, or talk to somebody I thought had more insight than I did. Knowledge was slow to gain, required effort to obtain and, to me, felt more authentic and valuable. You can still carry out research online now obviously, but it's so much easier to take shortcuts and become an armchair expert in a matter of weeks.
I suppose 25 years ago I would have assumed that whoever was writing what I was reading had also had to do the legwork, had done the slow research and had themselves done the reading before synthesising the relevant information for me to consume.
I do believe that convenience impacts the depth of our understanding. A while back I read a paper about the impact of GPS navigation devices on small Inuit communities. Older members of the community continue to navigate through traditional methods, by landmarks and by stories, but the younger members of the community tended to rely on electronic devices, which were efficient and 100% accurate, until the devices get lost, broken or stop working. At that point, there's no underlying foundation for the information the younger members of the community had been hitherto happily been accessing and deploying, so they get lost.
Nowadays any answer to any question is Google-able, but the abundance of information means it's hard to judge the validity, and the fact that any answer can be had with a few clicks means it's easy to parrot information - and even easier to do so in the incorrect context. I myself knowing the answer to so many questions to which I haven't even earned, all I can do is to try an remember that I might know a few facts, but it's still superficial form of knowledge.
We don't have to remember information now either. Instead of storing it in our brains it's now stored in the cloud, ready for whenever we need to repeat it. But it's not stored anywhere that makes knowledge feel valuable, or precious, or earned, or even a part of us.
Everything online these days seems to be treated as fact by default by many people because they can repeat it, and not have to think about it too deeply. Repetition is different to true understanding though. I think it's only natural to doubt everything you read right now.
Edit - after one too many pints in the garden your post has sent me down a wormhole! [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 23:43]
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Good post.
I tend to think more about media but there's a much wider sense of information and knowledge of course. And as you say, similar risks and opportunities apply. | |
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| How much trust do you have? on 11:00 - Jul 10 with 580 views | Darth_Koont |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:48 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
Hardly any at all in anything or anyone sadly. And I find the older I get the more cynical I become. You get hardly any clear facts of anything now, and a lot of times people or situations are over complicated which confuse people and I never trust that. And the less I can say about doctors or *$%*$% politicians the better... |
Although there's certainly the argument that the more knowledge you have the less clear or simple the answers.
It's exceptionally difficult to reduce stuff to bite-sized snippets. Which is why we should always be wary of political slogans. As we've seen, they are just as likely to muddy the debate as they are to clarify it.
Also, too many of us find facts and objectivity boring. | |
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| How much trust do you have? on 11:03 - Jul 10 with 579 views | DebsyAngel |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:50 - Jul 10 by Libero |
Sorry, but, you don't trust medical Doctors? |
Not the ones I have had over the last 18 months.
Was told I had glandular fever or MAY have it and I had so many "diagnoses" of what I had and on further examination by specialists, found they were wrong. It was just to get me out of the door, another set of pills or meds, as they had no idea and no time to dig deeper despite the pain I was in. As long as I got on antidepressants, that was their goal, because it's the cure-all to them. How disappointed they were when after a week I had to stop them as the pupil in my left eye blew and had to see an out of hours doctor at Riverside who told me to come off them. MY doctor seemed disappointed that I "had not given them a go" - I told her about the emergency appointment and the fact I have a rare eye condition and was made to feel like I had LIED as there was a record of me seeing the Out of hours doctor, but NOT why. I certainly had not asked for it to be kept a secret - quite the opposite.
As time has gone on, heart problems, mood swings etc. Saw a cardiologist after tests and I had to tell him could it be hormone related? He said it was worth a try so after months of waiting for HRT to come back onto the market, I started it Monday. Why did no doctor even consider that it could be my change of life starting when there was enough evidence of things to strongly suggest it?
Sorry to go on, but that is why I do not trust them. There are some good ones out there, my Dad's one (who has now retired more's the pity) was incredible and knew exactly what to do. | | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:11 - Jul 10 with 562 views | Libero |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:03 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
Not the ones I have had over the last 18 months.
Was told I had glandular fever or MAY have it and I had so many "diagnoses" of what I had and on further examination by specialists, found they were wrong. It was just to get me out of the door, another set of pills or meds, as they had no idea and no time to dig deeper despite the pain I was in. As long as I got on antidepressants, that was their goal, because it's the cure-all to them. How disappointed they were when after a week I had to stop them as the pupil in my left eye blew and had to see an out of hours doctor at Riverside who told me to come off them. MY doctor seemed disappointed that I "had not given them a go" - I told her about the emergency appointment and the fact I have a rare eye condition and was made to feel like I had LIED as there was a record of me seeing the Out of hours doctor, but NOT why. I certainly had not asked for it to be kept a secret - quite the opposite.
As time has gone on, heart problems, mood swings etc. Saw a cardiologist after tests and I had to tell him could it be hormone related? He said it was worth a try so after months of waiting for HRT to come back onto the market, I started it Monday. Why did no doctor even consider that it could be my change of life starting when there was enough evidence of things to strongly suggest it?
Sorry to go on, but that is why I do not trust them. There are some good ones out there, my Dad's one (who has now retired more's the pity) was incredible and knew exactly what to do. |
It sounds like you have complex medical needs, there's bound to be some differences in opinion of how to treat various elements of your condition(s) and quite often it is a case of a process of elimination, trying X, Y, Z until something works.
Maybe give them a break, it's an incredibly difficult job, I can't imagine any one has trained for the amount of time they have to do the job that considers anti-depressants as a "cure-all"
From the small amount you've shared there it sounds very emotionally charged and I wish you all the best. | | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:21 - Jul 10 with 549 views | DebsyAngel |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:11 - Jul 10 by Libero |
It sounds like you have complex medical needs, there's bound to be some differences in opinion of how to treat various elements of your condition(s) and quite often it is a case of a process of elimination, trying X, Y, Z until something works.
Maybe give them a break, it's an incredibly difficult job, I can't imagine any one has trained for the amount of time they have to do the job that considers anti-depressants as a "cure-all"
From the small amount you've shared there it sounds very emotionally charged and I wish you all the best. |
They were just too quick to blame it all on anxiety and almost forced me to take antidepressants. There are a lot of complex issues going on, and the lump inside my nose, I was meant to have an ENT referral made - I cannot even trust that this has been done. Just because specialists have found nothing wrong so far, I am feeling no better and you can see the lump but the doctor denied she could see it! And as you know on previous posts, I have this thing on my foot now, and have not had a chance to be seen about that - cannot say that is "in my mind" when you can see it! They have made my anxiety worse and my trust has sadly gone in them, all they did was get my hopes up then push me further back down the line to any progress. I know they are human and can make mistakes - but it's the attitude they have to me when I have been in there crying in pain and they are so cold and uncaring, like I "put it on". | | | |
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| How much trust do you have? on 11:43 - Jul 10 with 518 views | sparks |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:03 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
Not the ones I have had over the last 18 months.
Was told I had glandular fever or MAY have it and I had so many "diagnoses" of what I had and on further examination by specialists, found they were wrong. It was just to get me out of the door, another set of pills or meds, as they had no idea and no time to dig deeper despite the pain I was in. As long as I got on antidepressants, that was their goal, because it's the cure-all to them. How disappointed they were when after a week I had to stop them as the pupil in my left eye blew and had to see an out of hours doctor at Riverside who told me to come off them. MY doctor seemed disappointed that I "had not given them a go" - I told her about the emergency appointment and the fact I have a rare eye condition and was made to feel like I had LIED as there was a record of me seeing the Out of hours doctor, but NOT why. I certainly had not asked for it to be kept a secret - quite the opposite.
As time has gone on, heart problems, mood swings etc. Saw a cardiologist after tests and I had to tell him could it be hormone related? He said it was worth a try so after months of waiting for HRT to come back onto the market, I started it Monday. Why did no doctor even consider that it could be my change of life starting when there was enough evidence of things to strongly suggest it?
Sorry to go on, but that is why I do not trust them. There are some good ones out there, my Dad's one (who has now retired more's the pity) was incredible and knew exactly what to do. |
Do you think that perhaps medicine is not a perfect science, and the diagnosis is not a perfect or autmomatic process? Instead of getting you out of the door- they may be using their best endeavours, skills and experience in a perfectly competent way, without always getting the perfect result... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| How much trust do you have? on 11:48 - Jul 10 with 514 views | Libero |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:21 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
They were just too quick to blame it all on anxiety and almost forced me to take antidepressants. There are a lot of complex issues going on, and the lump inside my nose, I was meant to have an ENT referral made - I cannot even trust that this has been done. Just because specialists have found nothing wrong so far, I am feeling no better and you can see the lump but the doctor denied she could see it! And as you know on previous posts, I have this thing on my foot now, and have not had a chance to be seen about that - cannot say that is "in my mind" when you can see it! They have made my anxiety worse and my trust has sadly gone in them, all they did was get my hopes up then push me further back down the line to any progress. I know they are human and can make mistakes - but it's the attitude they have to me when I have been in there crying in pain and they are so cold and uncaring, like I "put it on". |
I have had to have various conversations similar to this with my Mother who has a very painful form of arthritis that involved similar amounts of trying X, Y, Z until she received a diagnosis and treatment. The process also had an effect on her mental health, just as it sounds it potentially is with yourself.
Mum would get really worked up and upset, almost felt like she was creating a VS situation with the Doctors at times, similarly she described them as uncaring and felt like she was being accused of lying, I'd just remind her repeatedly that carers are carers and doctors are doctors, they're just trying to find the most effective way of diagnosing and treating you as possible, nobody gains anything from longing it out and they must also be frustrated.
Thankfully Mum is now on medication that works for her, but she had to go through a good 3/4 years of this kind of stuff.
As I say, it all sounds very emotionally charged and I wish you the best. | | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:49 - Jul 10 with 512 views | DebsyAngel |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:43 - Jul 10 by sparks |
Do you think that perhaps medicine is not a perfect science, and the diagnosis is not a perfect or autmomatic process? Instead of getting you out of the door- they may be using their best endeavours, skills and experience in a perfectly competent way, without always getting the perfect result... |
I guess it is hard to tell it all in full on here as it's been going on so long, so I will just leave it at that. It was my opinion and if others disagree, fine. | | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 12:12 - Jul 10 with 495 views | DebsyAngel |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:48 - Jul 10 by Libero |
I have had to have various conversations similar to this with my Mother who has a very painful form of arthritis that involved similar amounts of trying X, Y, Z until she received a diagnosis and treatment. The process also had an effect on her mental health, just as it sounds it potentially is with yourself.
Mum would get really worked up and upset, almost felt like she was creating a VS situation with the Doctors at times, similarly she described them as uncaring and felt like she was being accused of lying, I'd just remind her repeatedly that carers are carers and doctors are doctors, they're just trying to find the most effective way of diagnosing and treating you as possible, nobody gains anything from longing it out and they must also be frustrated.
Thankfully Mum is now on medication that works for her, but she had to go through a good 3/4 years of this kind of stuff.
As I say, it all sounds very emotionally charged and I wish you the best. |
Thank you - I am really pleased that your Mum has finally got the help and meds she needs. Take care. | | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 12:28 - Jul 10 with 477 views | Clapham_Junction |
| How much trust do you have? on 10:47 - Jul 10 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I think Wikipedia is underrated as a source. As it's open source it can be abused but it also means the truth has a fighting chance as well. And the citations are excellent at linking to trusted primary sources. |
One advantage Wikipedia has is that it's a collaborative endeavour with a level of peer review that news articles and even some books don't get. Readers don't generally see how much work goes on behind the scenes. There is a lot of discussion over the reliability of sources and in cases where there are sources with contradictory information or mistakes made by journalists who are not entirely familiar with the subject they are covering. |  | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 12:30 - Jul 10 with 474 views | WeWereZombies |
| How much trust do you have? on 11:49 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
I guess it is hard to tell it all in full on here as it's been going on so long, so I will just leave it at that. It was my opinion and if others disagree, fine. |
I have a lot of sympathy for your view about the use of anti-depressants as a panacea (they are not a panacea and can be very dangerous when wrongly prescribed, as a family member knows from bitter experience). Many years ago I was in a position to see the frightening quantities (both in volume and cost terms) of their prescription to just one medium sized town (not Ipswich, but close to and smaller), it was sobering to say the least. So my view of doctors is that I mainly trust them but have reservations in specific areas, I view it a partnership. An unequal partnership as the doctor should have much greater knowledge of the subject matter and ultimately a final decision on your well-being but you have the personal and discreet knowledge about your physical and mental state, your homeostasis, that they cannot access.
The best way forward is going to be when that partnership is in agreement, trouble is that General Practitioners usually have little time to spare (a recent Panorama tracked one in Plymouth who was on the go from seven in the morning until eight or nine at night) and the patient has to get their issues in order and deliver their side of the story in a short space of time. Not always easy when you are feeling unwell. |  |
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| How much trust do you have? on 12:38 - Jul 10 with 452 views | Darth_Koont |
| How much trust do you have? on 12:28 - Jul 10 by Clapham_Junction |
One advantage Wikipedia has is that it's a collaborative endeavour with a level of peer review that news articles and even some books don't get. Readers don't generally see how much work goes on behind the scenes. There is a lot of discussion over the reliability of sources and in cases where there are sources with contradictory information or mistakes made by journalists who are not entirely familiar with the subject they are covering. |
Agreed. In that sense it borrows from the scientific method. Which, while not being perfect as humans are involved, is the best approach we have to testing and acquiring actual objective knowledge.
That's almost in complete contrast to a majority of our journalism nowadays. | |
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| How much trust do you have? on 14:12 - Jul 10 with 405 views | jeera |
| How much trust do you have? on 12:12 - Jul 10 by DebsyAngel |
Thank you - I am really pleased that your Mum has finally got the help and meds she needs. Take care. |
I have to say my experience from the medical profession has been from meeting and being treated by the most wonderful people, to those who have come across like they have been doing the job too long and they clearly grown to hate it and everyone.
It's just people isn't it.
I actually made a complaint about a [junior] doctor last year for the first time and it felt against the grain because it's not the sort of thing I'm usually comfortable with doing.
But she had been so incompetent, and arrogant with it, that one of her colleagues ( a senior doctor), actually suggested it. Him and a disgruntled receptionist. |  |
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| How much trust do you have? on 15:03 - Jul 10 with 377 views | LittleBoyBlue |
| How much trust do you have? on 07:00 - Jul 10 by WeWereZombies |
I tend to trust Wikipedia, in part because they make declarations when people contribute to a page and the Wikipedia guidelines are not completely adhered to. I have also had experience of being on the receiving end of a warning message from their legal head, not because what I added to a page was incorrect but because it had been challenged by the subject and I couldn't go back to the source for confirmation as he is now deceased. That being said, on a recent thread I started a link to TruePublica was posted and I could not find a Wikipedia page to ascertain the provenance of this online publication, most of the contributors did not have Wikipedia pages but one that did was branded a conspiracy theorist. However the article that was linked was not by her and did share one or two themes with famous open letter from someone a little further to the right on the political spectrum:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/why-i-have-resigned-from-telegr [Post edited 10 Jul 2020 7:22]
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You are right, wikipedia is usually a reliable source of information, in a large part to the way it is moderated and all sources have to be "fact checked". The downside is a lot of the contributors on there are political in a way, they have a particular view and so write articles or change them to push certain agendas, which while it does include some facts, they are designed to lead you to certain conclusions that aren't true, through ambiguously wording things. That's why it does help to read the source articles as they will give a different bias or opinion, and you can then generally read between the lines to find the actual truth. |  |
| "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." |
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| How much trust do you have? on 15:52 - Jul 10 with 355 views | eastangliaisblue |
The only media source I trust is the Suffolk Gazette. |  | | |
| How much trust do you have? on 16:08 - Jul 10 with 338 views | Swansea_Blue |
I don't trust anything verbatim I read in most media. That'll probably be too many years at university and having research techniques drilled into me, use of sources, etc. And then followed up from having my own work featured in the media and seeing how the media view is only a small part of the picture, even when there's no spin involved.
Sources are key for me. Does the person have a good track record? For example, I'll look to social media for information but ignore anything (other than jokes) from randoms and paid lobbyists, etc. |  |
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| How much trust do you have? on 18:46 - Jul 10 with 298 views | Melford |
Trouble is everybody can broadcast now. You can have a video made and in YouTube for the world to see in minutes. 30 years ago you had 4 TV channels broadcasting content that had to be within a strict code of conduct. Now the weird bloke in the pub who gets in a racist conspiracy rant every time he has a few too many now has a few thousand like minded people lapping it up and egging them on.
15 years ago the only oxygen of publicity Tommy Robinson and Garage would have got would the controversial nutter slot on the James Whale radio show with the likes of David Icke and Alex Jones. Now they can broadcast across a variety of media and sport their message.
Bit like how music has gone where before you had to pay for a studio to make a demo then get signed by a record company before you can get your music across to a wider audience, now you can have studio quality recording software on a bog standard laptop and sit in your pants making tracks in your front room and have millions of worldwide listeners. [Post edited 10 Jul 2020 20:25]
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