| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical 00:27 - Jul 14 with 4228 views | ArnieM |
In their promotion ?
Their form over the last 6 league games until CoVid stopped the league was not the best. They couldn’t guarantee they’d secure the points required to sneak back into the Play off zone ( Posh were in full flight stuffing teams left right and centre at this point in time )
They vote NOT to complete the season ....
But Vote FOR the PPG suggestion ( no doubt having worked out it would catapult them into play offs by virtue of their game in hand - the PPG WERE guaranteed points)....
Whereby they are suddenly all up for playing the play off games ( no problem there then)....
All smacks of a Club that has well and truly mugged off the rest of League One and the EFL to me .
Am I being unjust ? |  |
| |  |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:25 - Jul 14 with 1580 views | m14_blue |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 10:10 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Yes that's the point - they get rewarded for having not played Coventry away.
PPG was a materially unfair way to determine the end table. |
Neither Peterborough nor Oxford had played Coventry away either.
I don't really see how the EFL could have started forecasting future results and come to a fairer conclusion.
Of course PPG isn't perfect, and there will be winners and losers, but it seems fairly obvious to me that it was the least worst option. |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:30 - Jul 14 with 1571 views | SuperCoops |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 10:42 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
It's not a weird way of looking at it at all - teams that had played easier fixtures to that point were effectively given a double benefit.
The overriding priority should have been to finish the season - as mentioned elsewhere, it is absolute rubbish that teams in the play-offs could vote against finishing the games on whatever grounds and then happily play those matches.
Once that was ruled out, some sort of weighted expected points model would have been much more preferable than a flat PPG. My personal preference would have been to have agreed on a model, run x-thousand scenarios and then randomly pick one of those scenarios (rather than taking the weighted average scenario), but ultimately if any team has a non-zero chance of going up or down, then that should be reflected in any league ending scenario. |
We're you complaining when we had the benefit of thrashing Bolton kids, for example, at the start of the season as opposed to teams who were given a tougher game later on when Bolton regrouped?
Maybe those fixtures may have saved a Tranmere or altered things at the top of the table? |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:33 - Jul 14 with 1559 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:25 - Jul 14 by m14_blue |
Neither Peterborough nor Oxford had played Coventry away either.
I don't really see how the EFL could have started forecasting future results and come to a fairer conclusion.
Of course PPG isn't perfect, and there will be winners and losers, but it seems fairly obvious to me that it was the least worst option. |
Lack of imagination or will doesn't mean it is right - I have presented a fairer way of calculating it on the previous page.
Voting with PPG was lazy and just based on the self-interests of parties as opposed to being on any mathematical or sporting merit (and just so we are clear this has nothing to do with Ipswich's end result). |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:36 - Jul 14 with 1548 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:30 - Jul 14 by SuperCoops |
We're you complaining when we had the benefit of thrashing Bolton kids, for example, at the start of the season as opposed to teams who were given a tougher game later on when Bolton regrouped?
Maybe those fixtures may have saved a Tranmere or altered things at the top of the table? |
I don't think you can argue too much with the results of actual football matches.
A more relevant argument may have been if we had to play Bolton's kids next game but were instead given 1.8 points for it rather than the 5-0 drubbing we would have given out if the game actually happened, whilst Team Y get 2.1 points away at the table-toppers by virtue of their easier run-in. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 13:18 - Jul 14 with 1497 views | Ely_Blue |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 09:47 - Jul 14 by bournemouthblue |
For us it also fell down in the fact we still had Bolton and Southend to play along with a few other lower placed sides
Ultimately we didn't deserve a play-off place but we should have finished strongly
Should
We'll never know what would have happened |
And this is what made the whole thing stink, I don’t know the individual teams circumstances but there were probably a fair number of the top placed teams that had played both of them (and I also believe we still had Rochdale to play at home too).
The fairest way would have been to have worked it out on the first game vs each team |  |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:27 - Jul 14 with 1460 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:33 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Lack of imagination or will doesn't mean it is right - I have presented a fairer way of calculating it on the previous page.
Voting with PPG was lazy and just based on the self-interests of parties as opposed to being on any mathematical or sporting merit (and just so we are clear this has nothing to do with Ipswich's end result). |
Your 'fairer way' isn't workable and would be open to plenty of criticism itself. |  |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:46 - Jul 14 with 1449 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:27 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
Your 'fairer way' isn't workable and would be open to plenty of criticism itself. |
Quote marks around the word fairer - why wouldn't it be fairer?
Models exist, so it would have been workable - we have had 4 months since football finished so it wasn't like we are time constrained.
It is of course open to criticism but would have been mathematically and sportingly sound, which PPG isn't and never could be. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:49 - Jul 14 with 1447 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:46 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Quote marks around the word fairer - why wouldn't it be fairer?
Models exist, so it would have been workable - we have had 4 months since football finished so it wasn't like we are time constrained.
It is of course open to criticism but would have been mathematically and sportingly sound, which PPG isn't and never could be. |
What do you mean by mathematically sound? You're talking about modelling that involves selecting and weighting a range of variables, which is a process requrii g a degree of subjectivity. Mathematically working out the average points per game seems much sounder. You could argue your proposal is more rigorous but whether it is workable is another matter and whether people would be happy with the season being decided by a variant of Football Manager is another matter too. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:08 - Jul 14 with 1443 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 14:49 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
What do you mean by mathematically sound? You're talking about modelling that involves selecting and weighting a range of variables, which is a process requrii g a degree of subjectivity. Mathematically working out the average points per game seems much sounder. You could argue your proposal is more rigorous but whether it is workable is another matter and whether people would be happy with the season being decided by a variant of Football Manager is another matter too. |
The suggestion is that a probabilistic model would be used to determine the matches to come - it is more mathematically sound than a method that attributes more than 3 points per game to some matches.
I don't know why you are anti-variables - this is exactly what should be used; there is a lot of (subjective or otherwise) that should be considered in mapping forward results, not just the results of previous matches. PPG is a flawed deterministic model and there is no defence of it that stacks up from a sporting integrity perspective. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:12 - Jul 14 with 1438 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:08 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
The suggestion is that a probabilistic model would be used to determine the matches to come - it is more mathematically sound than a method that attributes more than 3 points per game to some matches.
I don't know why you are anti-variables - this is exactly what should be used; there is a lot of (subjective or otherwise) that should be considered in mapping forward results, not just the results of previous matches. PPG is a flawed deterministic model and there is no defence of it that stacks up from a sporting integrity perspective. |
They didn't use PPG to map future results. They used it as a way of calculating where teams should finish based on the games played. No points have been allocated based on future matches. [Post edited 14 Jul 2020 15:13]
| |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:21 - Jul 14 with 1429 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:12 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
They didn't use PPG to map future results. They used it as a way of calculating where teams should finish based on the games played. No points have been allocated based on future matches. [Post edited 14 Jul 2020 15:13]
|
They have replaced fixtures to play with a measure for tracking performance in the previous games. I don't know whether you're being deliberately obtuse now. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:27 - Jul 14 with 1413 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:21 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
They have replaced fixtures to play with a measure for tracking performance in the previous games. I don't know whether you're being deliberately obtuse now. |
I'm not being obtuse, you seem to be misunderstanding what they have done. PPG isn't meant to be predictive. It's not meant to replace fixtures that haven't been played. It's a means for determining finishing position when teams haven't played the same number of fixtures. It's as simple as that. The final league table doesn't show teams with their respective PPG added for their remaining fixtures. It's based solely on what has happened, not what will happen. | |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:28 - Jul 14 with 1409 views | peterleeblue |
The fault lies entirely with the EFL.
There should have been no vote. The season should have been either
1. Null and void
2. Completed
The PPG is totally unfair and not in the spirit of the game. Once the EFL allowed votes per club then it isn't Wycombe's fault to vote for what was in their best interests. Good luck to them.
The EFL are responsible for all 3 divisions and therefore they have made a mockery of their own competition by allowing leagues 1 and 2 they way they did.
The arguments put forward about what clubs actually deserved based on where they were in March dont hold water. Once COVI19 hit it was a standing start with a lot of the fatigue and injuries that apply in a regular season no longer an issue - Literally anything could have happened especially in league where lets be frank there were no real stand out levels of team.
IMHO the season should have been played out for the integrity of the Professional game. The SKY money that remained in the Prem league clubs could have supported the testing and the government perhaps could have supported with part Furlough ( I appreciate that may have opened a whole can of worms elsewhere). |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:36 - Jul 14 with 1394 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:27 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
I'm not being obtuse, you seem to be misunderstanding what they have done. PPG isn't meant to be predictive. It's not meant to replace fixtures that haven't been played. It's a means for determining finishing position when teams haven't played the same number of fixtures. It's as simple as that. The final league table doesn't show teams with their respective PPG added for their remaining fixtures. It's based solely on what has happened, not what will happen. |
But it doesn't work like that because they are replacing games that haven't been played with this measure - i.e. it matters how difficult the remaining games are because they have been replaced with a set points figure (i.e. Coventry don't play Wycombe and they both get 1.9 + 1.7 points or whatever it was, and we don't play Southend and we get 1.5 points). This is important because not all of the games are of equal difficulty. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:42 - Jul 14 with 1387 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:36 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
But it doesn't work like that because they are replacing games that haven't been played with this measure - i.e. it matters how difficult the remaining games are because they have been replaced with a set points figure (i.e. Coventry don't play Wycombe and they both get 1.9 + 1.7 points or whatever it was, and we don't play Southend and we get 1.5 points). This is important because not all of the games are of equal difficulty. |
Wycombe and Coventry don't get any points for their unplayed fixture. That's not what is being done. They are not purporting to use PPG to predict what would have happened in games in the future. Those games are simply set aside as the season had been cancelled. You think it would be fairer to try to predict the future using modelling to simulate remaining fixtures. I think that's even more problematic than writing off the remaining fixtures and using PPG for the games already played. | |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:45 - Jul 14 with 1384 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:42 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
Wycombe and Coventry don't get any points for their unplayed fixture. That's not what is being done. They are not purporting to use PPG to predict what would have happened in games in the future. Those games are simply set aside as the season had been cancelled. You think it would be fairer to try to predict the future using modelling to simulate remaining fixtures. I think that's even more problematic than writing off the remaining fixtures and using PPG for the games already played. |
Ok - in which case Wycombe's PPG is skewed by having easier fixtures than other teams. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:59 - Jul 14 with 1376 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:45 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Ok - in which case Wycombe's PPG is skewed by having easier fixtures than other teams. |
In your opinion. I'm not sure much can be done about that in any case. Every side had played more than three quarters of their fixtures and whilst there would be some variance in the perceived difficulty of the remaining fixtures, 34 or 35 games is a pretty large sample of fixtures. I don't think anyone would claim PPG is ideal, but nor is trying to model the outcome of the remaining fixtures. In fact I find that far more problematic. | |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:04 - Jul 14 with 1369 views | Keaneish |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 01:05 - Jul 14 by catch74 |
|
Even funnier given how many people on here dismissed the idea of Karl Robinson taking over. |  |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:09 - Jul 14 with 1355 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 15:59 - Jul 14 by Herbivore |
In your opinion. I'm not sure much can be done about that in any case. Every side had played more than three quarters of their fixtures and whilst there would be some variance in the perceived difficulty of the remaining fixtures, 34 or 35 games is a pretty large sample of fixtures. I don't think anyone would claim PPG is ideal, but nor is trying to model the outcome of the remaining fixtures. In fact I find that far more problematic. |
Playing three quarters of the fixtures is the problem - you could in theory have a team that has played the bottom half twice and the top half once - this is materially unfair.
This bit isn't a matter of opinion. | | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:10 - Jul 14 with 1356 views | PhilTWTD |
None of the clubs in the play-offs voted to play on in the end, even Portsmouth voted to finish early ultimately. The four who voted in favour of carrying on were us, Sunderland, Peterborough and Tranmere.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:12 - Jul 14 with 1345 views | gordon |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:09 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Playing three quarters of the fixtures is the problem - you could in theory have a team that has played the bottom half twice and the top half once - this is materially unfair.
This bit isn't a matter of opinion. |
in theory, yes, but statistically the chances of that would be tiny. |  | | |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:14 - Jul 14 with 1336 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:09 - Jul 14 by JakeITFC |
Playing three quarters of the fixtures is the problem - you could in theory have a team that has played the bottom half twice and the top half once - this is materially unfair.
This bit isn't a matter of opinion. |
Indeed it is unfair, which is why they should have voided the season. However, PPG at least uses what teams have achieved to determine their position, not what they might achieve. I don't see modelling the remaining fixtures as being a remotely fair way of doing things. As I've said, voiding the season or waiting to conclude it on the pitch should have been the two options as they are clear and unequivocal. But given the decision to end the season but treat it as completed, I'm not sure any system is fairer for determining positions than PPG. | |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:17 - Jul 14 with 1324 views | Herbivore |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:12 - Jul 14 by gordon |
in theory, yes, but statistically the chances of that would be tiny. |
Quite so. | |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:21 - Jul 14 with 1318 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 11:25 - Jul 14 by m14_blue |
Neither Peterborough nor Oxford had played Coventry away either.
I don't really see how the EFL could have started forecasting future results and come to a fairer conclusion.
Of course PPG isn't perfect, and there will be winners and losers, but it seems fairly obvious to me that it was the least worst option. |
Agreed.
The only other viable approach, imo, would have been to simply postpone the season and scrap all results. But then people would be arguing that was unfair on Coventry and Rotherham.
I've always thought ppg is the best way of resolving the season. It's not like we'd only played a handful of games. The season was very advanced and it's a fair reflection of who's done best.
The only reason I'm even remotely interested in Wycombe is because Akinfenwa was down here some years ago. And i'm not even that fussed about that. Who cares about them, we should be more worried about ourselves. |  |
| |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:21 - Jul 14 with 1318 views | JakeITFC |
| Have Wycombe been quite calculating and cynical on 16:12 - Jul 14 by gordon |
in theory, yes, but statistically the chances of that would be tiny. |
But there being some bias of the fixtures towards some teams is close to a statistical certainty. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
