| This will upset some.... on 09:32 - Jul 17 with 836 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 09:26 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Obviously I don’t have the evidence because I’m just a pleb on an Internet forum. The security services must have evidence though or they wouldn’t have revoked her citizenship, this evidence will be highly classified.
I haven’t swerved your question at all. You asked me why I treat her differently to underage girls who are groomed for sex. I answered that those other girls are not hell bent on murdering anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their barbaric ideology. For that reason I would treat her differently to innocent young women. |
But do you think those girls who were groomed knew what they were doing? You seem to think Shamima did and is fully responsible for her actions but you don't seem to think girls who are groomed in other circumstances are responsible for their actions. Your explanation for why doesn't address that issue, it's an attempt to swerve it. The issue is whether 15 year olds are fully culpable for the decisions they make or whether they can be groomed by manipulative adults and this impacts on their culpability. You can't say one 15 year old is and others aren't just because it suits your argument. If this is purely about vengeance then just say so.
I'm glad at least that you've acknowledged you've made up crimes that you have no idea whether she's committed or not. That's some progress at least. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:34 - Jul 17 with 827 views | gordon |
| This will upset some.... on 09:26 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Obviously I don’t have the evidence because I’m just a pleb on an Internet forum. The security services must have evidence though or they wouldn’t have revoked her citizenship, this evidence will be highly classified.
I haven’t swerved your question at all. You asked me why I treat her differently to underage girls who are groomed for sex. I answered that those other girls are not hell bent on murdering anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their barbaric ideology. For that reason I would treat her differently to innocent young women. |
You must be able to see that children aren't born with the hellbent desire to murder anyone, and that the people doing the radicalisation are the problem, not the victims?
And can you see that your desire for punitive punishment in a case like this, which patently wouldn't achieve anything useful, is similar in the sense that it has a thoroughly ideological origin? |  | | |
| This will upset some.... on 09:37 - Jul 17 with 813 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 09:32 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
But do you think those girls who were groomed knew what they were doing? You seem to think Shamima did and is fully responsible for her actions but you don't seem to think girls who are groomed in other circumstances are responsible for their actions. Your explanation for why doesn't address that issue, it's an attempt to swerve it. The issue is whether 15 year olds are fully culpable for the decisions they make or whether they can be groomed by manipulative adults and this impacts on their culpability. You can't say one 15 year old is and others aren't just because it suits your argument. If this is purely about vengeance then just say so.
I'm glad at least that you've acknowledged you've made up crimes that you have no idea whether she's committed or not. That's some progress at least. |
You’re failing to recognise that there’s a big difference between being groomed for sex and being groomed to become a member of ISIS |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:38 - Jul 17 with 807 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 09:24 - Jul 17 by Ewan_Oozami |
So enlisting the aid of a foreign govt, let's say, oh I don't know, Russia, in order to get yourself elected to carry out a plan which most people agree will be of some detriment to the UK, say, Brexit, wouldn't be considered treason? In that the impact of said actions will impact the people of this country far more than the actions of one 15 year old girl? |
It's interesting the rage against a 15 year old girl who apparently represents a huge threat to our lives. Islamic fundamentalist terror attacks have killed circa 100 people in the UK, possible fewer actually. Only a fairly small proportion of those had links to ISIS. The same people who have all this rage against a 15 year old girl who is a massive threat are the same types who defend a government whose incompetence in the past 3 months alone has killed tens of thousands. Maybe it's actually got nothing to do with valuing people's lives? | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:38 - Jul 17 with 806 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 09:34 - Jul 17 by gordon |
You must be able to see that children aren't born with the hellbent desire to murder anyone, and that the people doing the radicalisation are the problem, not the victims?
And can you see that your desire for punitive punishment in a case like this, which patently wouldn't achieve anything useful, is similar in the sense that it has a thoroughly ideological origin? |
Wouldn’t achieve anything? It would send a clear signal that the UK will not stand for this type of thing. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:39 - Jul 17 with 805 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 09:37 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
You’re failing to recognise that there’s a big difference between being groomed for sex and being groomed to become a member of ISIS |
What is the difference in terms of the process of grooming and its influence on the decisions these girls made? How much do you know about how grooming works? I'm guessing not a lot. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 794 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 09:38 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Wouldn’t achieve anything? It would send a clear signal that the UK will not stand for this type of thing. |
You want to send out the message that the UK is the kind of country that executes people who commit a crime at the age of 15? I think you need to move to Syria, mate. Much more aligned with your world view there. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 792 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This will upset some.... on 21:04 - Jul 16 by LittleBoyBlue |
This is the main issue in point. She revoked her British national status herself in an interview when she was in ISIS, which is why when she was discovered in the refugee camp last year, after she was presumed dead, that UK revoked her status as well. That is what her lawyers are arguing against, she hasn't been made nationless yet, as she still has the option at any point in her life of becoming a Bangladeshi citizen.
There are plenty of other non violent people, and kids, that are truly nationless that deserve the chance more than she does, why don't the lawyers and solicitors choose to help them, oh right I forgot, unknown people wouldn't earn them any money or fame to help their personal careers, so aren't worthy of helping. [Post edited 16 Jul 2020 21:06]
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Think you'll find that there are many organisations around the world and in the UK helping stateless people, they only hit the news when the tabloids start moaning about an influx of stateless people thanks to those organisations' work.. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:41 - Jul 17 with 787 views | footers |
| This will upset some.... on 09:39 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
What is the difference in terms of the process of grooming and its influence on the decisions these girls made? How much do you know about how grooming works? I'm guessing not a lot. |
"How much do you know about how grooming works?"
Wash behind your ears and brush your hair before going out. That was an easy one. |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 09:44 - Jul 17 with 777 views | gordon |
| This will upset some.... on 09:38 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Wouldn’t achieve anything? It would send a clear signal that the UK will not stand for this type of thing. |
Yes, it would send a clear signal to Daily Mail readers, I don't dispute that - this government is all about pointless gestures that are designed to trick people into thinking they are actually addressing problems.
It's more that punishing the victims of radicalisation isn't going to be a particularly effective way of stopping radicalisation is it? | | | |
| This will upset some.... on 09:45 - Jul 17 with 775 views | StokieBlue |
| This will upset some.... on 09:08 - Jul 17 by jonbull88 |
If someone joins a gang here, which goes round murdering people, even if they don’t pull the trigger, they are still an accomplice. Would you be happy for them to get off lightly or get the same conviction as the whole gang?
At 15 someone is old enough to make a decision about joining a group that goes round murdering different religions and faiths. She made the decision to go there, marry a soldier, bare his children, become a poster girl for Isis.
We have enough people being watched here as it is. Some have and some WILL slip through the net, and we all have seen the shocking scenes around the world when this happens. So sorry if my views don’t a line with yours. Yes I would like to see Terrorists Executed, however that doesn’t happen here anymore, so life in jail in a straight suit would do. |
A few things to unpick there:
"At 15 someone is old enough to make a decision about joining a group that goes round murdering different religions and faiths."
I am not convinced this is true. Some young people are easily manipulated or groomed, you can't say that she made the decisions in sound mind with any authority.
To take a less than perfect example:
If a 15 year old is groomed by a sexual predator and then sleeps with other adults laid on by the groomer do you charge them prostitution? Of course you don't.
I understand it's not a perfect analogy but in the end we are supposed to be a reasonably enlightened society so surely she should be allowed back to face our courts and be subject to our legal system?
As for executing terrorists, that is problematic as you're going to struggle to find a definition of terrorist that everyone agrees with.
SB |  | | |
| This will upset some.... on 09:56 - Jul 17 with 754 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 09:44 - Jul 17 by gordon |
Yes, it would send a clear signal to Daily Mail readers, I don't dispute that - this government is all about pointless gestures that are designed to trick people into thinking they are actually addressing problems.
It's more that punishing the victims of radicalisation isn't going to be a particularly effective way of stopping radicalisation is it? |
Not just punishing them, executing them. It's bizarre. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 10:18 - Jul 17 with 725 views | loftboy |
| This will upset some.... on 09:56 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
Not just punishing them, executing them. It's bizarre. |
Not read the whole thread so apologies if already mentioned, surely this is an ideal opportunity for some plea bargaining in return for names of who arranged this for her and who got inside her head. |  | | |
| This will upset some.... on 10:26 - Jul 17 with 697 views | jonbull88 |
| This will upset some.... on 09:18 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
Actually you're only complicit in an act of murder legally if it is a joint venture, which requires you to be present at the crime scene itself, not just to be a member of the gang that committed the crime. We don't know that she participated in any of those acts. She was married off at 15 and having kids, she wasn't wielding an AK-47.
If you think 15 years old is old enough to know what your doing I'll ask you the same question I asked Paz. Do you think 15 year old girls who are groomed by older men don't deserve legal protection as they are old enough to know what they are doing?
You're taking about wanting to execute someone who committed an offence at the age of 15. I'd like to be as polite as I can, frankly you need to have a word with yourself. |
Your getting bent out of shape about her leaving the uk a 15, im more worried about her actions after leaving the uk. She had not 1, not 2 but 3 pregnancies over there. She said she’s witnessed multiple murders and acted as if it was completely normal (which indicates she was there alright!!).
In my book there’s a huge difference between someone groomed for sex and one groomed to be a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser.
Had she been 17 when she left, what would you say then? | | | |
| This will upset some.... on 10:27 - Jul 17 with 695 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This will upset some.... on 06:16 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
It really isn't. You are not a clinical psychologist, not a chance. I suspect you've picked up some dubious counselling qualification online at best. |
Dang! I'd written a whole treatise on that and you summarise it in 3 sentences! :-) | |
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| This will upset some.... on 10:27 - Jul 17 with 695 views | Half_Idiot |
| This will upset some.... on 09:38 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Wouldn’t achieve anything? It would send a clear signal that the UK will not stand for this type of thing. |
The only clear message it sends is that the UK government has no regards to human rights. |  | | |
| This will upset some.... on 11:16 - Jul 17 with 640 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 10:26 - Jul 17 by jonbull88 |
Your getting bent out of shape about her leaving the uk a 15, im more worried about her actions after leaving the uk. She had not 1, not 2 but 3 pregnancies over there. She said she’s witnessed multiple murders and acted as if it was completely normal (which indicates she was there alright!!).
In my book there’s a huge difference between someone groomed for sex and one groomed to be a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser.
Had she been 17 when she left, what would you say then? |
So try and articulate that difference for me. Why is a girl groomed to be used for sex a victim who is not culpable for their actions whilst a 15 year old groomed to be used by ISIS in Syria is a criminal worthy of being executed? [Post edited 17 Jul 2020 11:16]
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| This will upset some.... on 11:16 - Jul 17 with 638 views | Darth_Koont |
| This will upset some.... on 10:27 - Jul 17 by Half_Idiot |
The only clear message it sends is that the UK government has no regards to human rights. |
Indeed.
Human rights (and international laws safeguarding them) aren't something to be turned on and off as it suits.
When did government (although political system and media as a whole are just as bad) become so performative? Has it always been like this but wider and deeper information sources expose the behaviour more clearly? |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 11:30 - Jul 17 with 615 views | Mullet |
Always the racists that hate our laws innit |  |
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| This will upset some.... on 12:01 - Jul 17 with 575 views | jonbull88 |
| This will upset some.... on 11:16 - Jul 17 by Herbivore |
So try and articulate that difference for me. Why is a girl groomed to be used for sex a victim who is not culpable for their actions whilst a 15 year old groomed to be used by ISIS in Syria is a criminal worthy of being executed? [Post edited 17 Jul 2020 11:16]
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She was out there as she wanted the life style. She wanted to marry a soldier and bear their children. She’s said as much in her interview. She hasn’t said anything about regret and hasn’t warned others about the dangers. How many sex victims would we be scared of meeting in a room or living next door to? Not many. On the other hand if she comes back, do you want her living next door to you, chatting to your family? I know i would not. | | | |
| This will upset some.... on 12:04 - Jul 17 with 566 views | Herbivore |
| This will upset some.... on 12:01 - Jul 17 by jonbull88 |
She was out there as she wanted the life style. She wanted to marry a soldier and bear their children. She’s said as much in her interview. She hasn’t said anything about regret and hasn’t warned others about the dangers. How many sex victims would we be scared of meeting in a room or living next door to? Not many. On the other hand if she comes back, do you want her living next door to you, chatting to your family? I know i would not. |
Okay so you do see those 15 year old girls as culpable. Glad we've got there in the end. A bit of friendly advice, educate yourself on grooming and how it works and see if you change your stance.
And the idea she's going to come back and not face some prison time and significant monitoring thereafter is pure fantasy. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 12:05 - Jul 17 with 561 views | footers |
| This will upset some.... on 12:01 - Jul 17 by jonbull88 |
She was out there as she wanted the life style. She wanted to marry a soldier and bear their children. She’s said as much in her interview. She hasn’t said anything about regret and hasn’t warned others about the dangers. How many sex victims would we be scared of meeting in a room or living next door to? Not many. On the other hand if she comes back, do you want her living next door to you, chatting to your family? I know i would not. |
What you want or not isn't the issue. It's a matter of international law that she should be returned to her country of origin to be dealt with. It's really not difficult. | |
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| This will upset some.... on 12:06 - Jul 17 with 551 views | 26_Paz |
| This will upset some.... on 12:05 - Jul 17 by footers |
What you want or not isn't the issue. It's a matter of international law that she should be returned to her country of origin to be dealt with. It's really not difficult. |
Agree. Return her and deal with her, appropriately! | |
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| This will upset some.... on 12:09 - Jul 17 with 533 views | footers |
| This will upset some.... on 12:06 - Jul 17 by 26_Paz |
Agree. Return her and deal with her, appropriately! |
So a course of deradicalisation and appropriate sentence. Not the killing one :) | |
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| This will upset some.... on 14:56 - Jul 17 with 466 views | SpruceMoose |
| This will upset some.... on 05:03 - Jul 17 by LittleBoyBlue |
Again I question your reading ability of the English language, I never said she HAD revoked it, I said she revoked it, which is a completely different sentence meaning. Maybe it's a bit too ambiguous for you to understand. I'll explain, if something has happened it needs a definitive word in the sentence structure, to indicate it's and action that happened, without a definitive it's open to interpretation, she wanted to revoke, she revoked it personally, she didn't revoke it legally. Now can you understand the mistake you have made, or do I need to explain 7 yr old English lessons to you. Just because most people are lazy in the way the speak and type, doesn't mean I am, as you have commented on before and I explained I prefer to write longer passages to be clearer in my speech. Obviously I'm not doing a good enough job where you are concerned, maybe I should resort to speaking to you as I would a child.
And you are still yet to provide evidence anything I stated was wrong, you are again picking up on spelling, language and grammar to reinforce your argument. I've had better discussions with brick walls than I have with you this evening, at least a brick wall can give a more constructive answer than you have provided so far. |
I think you're just some kind of blowhard bot designed to use five words where one would do.
Either that or you're a complete fantasist. |  |
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