| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... 15:00 - Aug 4 with 29146 views | WeWereZombies |
The next time anyone feels they have to absolutely win an argument, have the last say on a thread, pile in or claim to be piled into, maybe remember this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53607943 |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:26 - Aug 5 with 4602 views | Half_Idiot |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 15:05 - Aug 4 by J2BLUE |
I have found an increasing number of people are becoming unbeatable when arguing. It's only really possible to beat someone when they acknowledge they are wrong. More and more people I come into contact with just refuse to acknowledge evidence. I know several people who could be confronted with multiple pieces of undeniable evidence and refuse to admit they are wrong. It's very odd.
Increasingly used by people who are caught lying and then just keep saying 'no' even when you present undeniable proof to their face.
It's incredibly irritating and for them, quite effective. |
I find it staggering when people refuse to accept they are wrong despite being presented with substantial evidence. It's ok to change your view point, it shows you are willing to learn and grow. It's a sign of strength not sign of weakness. |  | | |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:34 - Aug 5 with 4588 views | Libero |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:26 - Aug 5 by Half_Idiot |
I find it staggering when people refuse to accept they are wrong despite being presented with substantial evidence. It's ok to change your view point, it shows you are willing to learn and grow. It's a sign of strength not sign of weakness. |
In my experience some people just really struggle with objectively judging themselves/their behaviour/their circumstances and as a result often come across as if they have a sincere lack of humility.
Being an A Grade weirdo I'm constantly having to assess and reassess myself on a micro and macro scale to ensure that I'm passing for a legible human being.
Sometimes I get it wrong and it's hard to take, but the only way to improve is to make mistakes and learn, I think people who struggle with failure make up a good proportion of those who don't like "backing down" and show that level of ignorant inflexibility that's referenced in the thread. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 9:35]
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:42 - Aug 5 with 4576 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:34 - Aug 5 by Libero |
In my experience some people just really struggle with objectively judging themselves/their behaviour/their circumstances and as a result often come across as if they have a sincere lack of humility.
Being an A Grade weirdo I'm constantly having to assess and reassess myself on a micro and macro scale to ensure that I'm passing for a legible human being.
Sometimes I get it wrong and it's hard to take, but the only way to improve is to make mistakes and learn, I think people who struggle with failure make up a good proportion of those who don't like "backing down" and show that level of ignorant inflexibility that's referenced in the thread. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 9:35]
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A Grade weido? Who do you think you are? Zaphod Beeblebrox?
(Tries to shoehorn in Restaurant At The End of The Universe reference!) |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:16 - Aug 5 with 4548 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 23:20 - Aug 4 by StokieBlue |
"Is your answer really that this is all a happy accident? That gravity pulled our planet together... and stuff grew from nothing... and then you had consciousness... was just one big fluke?"
It's not a fluke. It didn't grow from nothing. Life followed an understandable set of laws which resulted in intelligence after 4.5 billion years. The laws are constant and have probably had the same results countless times across the universe. There is no need to ascribe anything above that to the process.
SB [Post edited 4 Aug 2020 23:20]
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Yeah, but...
1. Where did those laws come from? Gravity, for example, is something I've always struggled to get my head around. What is making it pull towards itself?
2. I'm not sure you can definitely say "it didn't grow from nothing" as we don't know yet. The problem is you can't really have something coming from nothing... and yet there surely must've been a point when there was nothing. As far as our brains can work out, we shouldn't exist because neither of those states can be true. Yet here we are.
3. Therefore there must be something supernatural going on... or at least something beyond our understanding. Why, for example, are humans as intelligent as they are? It's not needed for evolution... we're a long way away from any other animal intelligence-wise, but they seem to have evolved perfectly fine. |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:22 - Aug 5 with 4542 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 23:55 - Aug 4 by Herbivore |
I'm not exactly broadcasting anything. I said there is no meaning of life in response to J2 suggesting there was and all I've done since is reply to you.
Our understanding of the universe is increasing all the time and we have plausible explanations for how it came into existence. None of these require God or mother nature or anything especially mystical. The wonder of existence as you call it doesn't prove anything at all, it isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose.
You think it's fanciful that human life came about by chance. Why? The universe is infinite. The chances are we aren't the only life or indeed the only intelligent life in the universe. For all we know entire civilisations may have lived and gone extinct when we were still making our way out of the sea. Other civilisations may yet to have evolved.
You not understanding why life exists and thinking it seems miraculous really isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose I'm afraid. [Post edited 4 Aug 2020 23:56]
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My honest position is I just don't know. There might be a god/meaning, there might not. I just don't see why you'd be certain one way or the other.
A few years ago you might have posted black holes don't exist. They were a theory, there was no proof of them, so in terms of current evidence you'd be right.
Like with this discussion, I'd have argued they MIGHT exist, what's the point of nailing your colours to the mast?
Black holes have now been proven to exist... in fact it's only a matter of months since we saw the very first photograph of one.
So in short, the best place to be is on the fence. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:39 - Aug 5 with 4527 views | Herbivore |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:22 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue |
My honest position is I just don't know. There might be a god/meaning, there might not. I just don't see why you'd be certain one way or the other.
A few years ago you might have posted black holes don't exist. They were a theory, there was no proof of them, so in terms of current evidence you'd be right.
Like with this discussion, I'd have argued they MIGHT exist, what's the point of nailing your colours to the mast?
Black holes have now been proven to exist... in fact it's only a matter of months since we saw the very first photograph of one.
So in short, the best place to be is on the fence. |
I don't like splinters up my arse. For me there is no evidence of a creator or supernatural force, in fact I'd point at the opposite. For example, if we think the universe is an example of intelligent design it's not necessarily that intelligent. Everything is so far apart (and moving further apart) that travelling is a right ball ache. An intelligently designed universe would surely have been made much more convenient in terms of travelling around it? We don't have much of a safety net when we destroy the Earth either as our nearest planets are miles and miles away and not exactly habitable.
You look at our existence and think of it as something wonderful, miraculous even, in need of explanation. I see it as something that just is and when you really think about it, in an infinite universe the likelihood of us existing is very high (certain even given that we do exist). I don't feel the need to invent something else to explain it.
Sure, you can sit on the fence and say there could be something more but it's not a position that is well founded. You could say that unicorns might exist too if you wanted, but it seems so improbable that the more reasonable position is to say that they don't. |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:44 - Aug 5 with 4522 views | StokieBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:16 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue |
Yeah, but...
1. Where did those laws come from? Gravity, for example, is something I've always struggled to get my head around. What is making it pull towards itself?
2. I'm not sure you can definitely say "it didn't grow from nothing" as we don't know yet. The problem is you can't really have something coming from nothing... and yet there surely must've been a point when there was nothing. As far as our brains can work out, we shouldn't exist because neither of those states can be true. Yet here we are.
3. Therefore there must be something supernatural going on... or at least something beyond our understanding. Why, for example, are humans as intelligent as they are? It's not needed for evolution... we're a long way away from any other animal intelligence-wise, but they seem to have evolved perfectly fine. |
Laws are fundamental properties, they don't "come" from anywhere. You are thinking about this all wrong. Just because you don't understand it that doesn't mean there is a design, creator or anything else.
"1. Where did those laws come from? Gravity, for example, is something I've always struggled to get my head around. What is making it pull towards itself?"
Gravity doesn't pull towards itself, it's a property of the curvature of space-time. Perhaps time to brush up on some of your relativity?
"2. I'm not sure you can definitely say "it didn't grow from nothing" as we don't know yet. The problem is you can't really have something coming from nothing... and yet there surely must've been a point when there was nothing. As far as our brains can work out, we shouldn't exist because neither of those states can be true. Yet here we are."
Not really sure what you are trying to say here. Everything flows from fundamental laws. There were rocks, they joined together under gravity, ice pelted the Earth from comets and amino acids began to form. This continues on through understood laws until you get to where you are today.
You seem to be saying that if at point we don't have 100% of the answers you can invoke some form of mysticism and that's frankly nonsense.
"3. Therefore there must be something supernatural going on... or at least something beyond our understanding. Why, for example, are humans as intelligent as they are? It's not needed for evolution... we're a long way away from any other animal intelligence-wise, but they seem to have evolved perfectly fine."
I'm sorry but this whole paragraph is just horrible. If it's beyond our understanding that doesn't mean it is supernatural. You have absolutely no evidence to invoke such a claim.
As for intelligence, it's not "needed" for evolution but it can be a product of evolution and one that takes the species out of evolutionary competition (as it has done for humans). Our oversized brain is probably the root of our intelligence and that can be directly traced to the conversion to hunting and cooking meat and thus the increase in protein intake. Our brains tripled in size once we started taking on easy to digest protein.
Evolution and intelligence have nothing to do with each other, I am not even sure why you are putting them in the same sentences.
I really think you need to do some reading around these subjects.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:45 - Aug 5 with 4521 views | J2BLUE |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 23:55 - Aug 4 by Herbivore |
I'm not exactly broadcasting anything. I said there is no meaning of life in response to J2 suggesting there was and all I've done since is reply to you.
Our understanding of the universe is increasing all the time and we have plausible explanations for how it came into existence. None of these require God or mother nature or anything especially mystical. The wonder of existence as you call it doesn't prove anything at all, it isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose.
You think it's fanciful that human life came about by chance. Why? The universe is infinite. The chances are we aren't the only life or indeed the only intelligent life in the universe. For all we know entire civilisations may have lived and gone extinct when we were still making our way out of the sea. Other civilisations may yet to have evolved.
You not understanding why life exists and thinking it seems miraculous really isn't evidence of some greater meaning or purpose I'm afraid. [Post edited 4 Aug 2020 23:56]
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Minor correction: J2 suggested that if you NEED a meaning then that was a pretty good one. I quite agree there is no meaning, no destiny, no fate etc. |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:56 - Aug 5 with 4511 views | Herbivore |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:45 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
Minor correction: J2 suggested that if you NEED a meaning then that was a pretty good one. I quite agree there is no meaning, no destiny, no fate etc. |
My apologies for misrepresenting you. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:57 - Aug 5 with 4509 views | Libero |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:42 - Aug 5 by Ewan_Oozami |
A Grade weido? Who do you think you are? Zaphod Beeblebrox?
(Tries to shoehorn in Restaurant At The End of The Universe reference!) |
So long, and thanks for all the fish. xoxo | | | |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:59 - Aug 5 with 4501 views | J2BLUE |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:56 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
My apologies for misrepresenting you. |
I sincerely and humbly accept your apology and wish you the upmost merriment on this most pleasant of glorious summer days. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 12:00]
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:15 - Aug 5 with 4474 views | Ryorry |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 09:26 - Aug 5 by Half_Idiot |
I find it staggering when people refuse to accept they are wrong despite being presented with substantial evidence. It's ok to change your view point, it shows you are willing to learn and grow. It's a sign of strength not sign of weakness. |
My cod theory (I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist) is that this may sometimes be due to lack of self-confidence - ie if you don't have much in the first place, it's too much of a dent to what you do have to be able to take a further chip out of it.
A visual analogy I have in mind is that of a tree about to be felled. There's already a bit of a wedge that's been axed out at the bottom. Any further blows into that are a threat - the whole thing gets closer to crashing down. |  |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:17 - Aug 5 with 4466 views | Libero |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:15 - Aug 5 by Ryorry |
My cod theory (I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist) is that this may sometimes be due to lack of self-confidence - ie if you don't have much in the first place, it's too much of a dent to what you do have to be able to take a further chip out of it.
A visual analogy I have in mind is that of a tree about to be felled. There's already a bit of a wedge that's been axed out at the bottom. Any further blows into that are a threat - the whole thing gets closer to crashing down. |
I dunno, you've never really struck me as being lacking in confidence... | | | |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:23 - Aug 5 with 4449 views | J2BLUE |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:15 - Aug 5 by Ryorry |
My cod theory (I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist) is that this may sometimes be due to lack of self-confidence - ie if you don't have much in the first place, it's too much of a dent to what you do have to be able to take a further chip out of it.
A visual analogy I have in mind is that of a tree about to be felled. There's already a bit of a wedge that's been axed out at the bottom. Any further blows into that are a threat - the whole thing gets closer to crashing down. |
Decent theory. One of my mates who lies so much that I literally never know if he's telling the truth or not mainly does it to inflate his image. On one of the very rare occasions he admits it instead of point blank denying it even when confronted with evidence he says it's because he wants us to think better of him and we would be bored if he just spoke normally. Which we've assured him is the complete opposite of reality where we in fact get pissed off with the lies and prefer him during his rare days of honesty. It never lasts though and he goes back to lying withing 48 hours every time.
I genuinely think he is addicted to lying. It becomes so second nature that people begin to lie about more and more until they are lying about mundane details of every day life. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:27 - Aug 5 with 4435 views | J2BLUE |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:25 - Aug 5 by Ryorry |
Phil's tactic of not posting an 'ahem' thread this time round (after a certain Pylon was Pulled a few days ago) has worked then! No resucitation of ancient battles, just all posters delicately dancing on eggshells round each other in a state of polite sorrow and remorse at the thought of poor Phil having to endlessly deal with naughty kids*.
*Not you I hasten to add! |
In wrestling terms I left as heel and returned to the forum as a face.
That and when I returned Herbivore said something so nice that it still makes me a bit emotional. I'm thinking of having it printed and framed. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:31 - Aug 5 with 4427 views | Herbivore |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:27 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
In wrestling terms I left as heel and returned to the forum as a face.
That and when I returned Herbivore said something so nice that it still makes me a bit emotional. I'm thinking of having it printed and framed. |
I meant every word of it as well. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:32 - Aug 5 with 4424 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:39 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
I don't like splinters up my arse. For me there is no evidence of a creator or supernatural force, in fact I'd point at the opposite. For example, if we think the universe is an example of intelligent design it's not necessarily that intelligent. Everything is so far apart (and moving further apart) that travelling is a right ball ache. An intelligently designed universe would surely have been made much more convenient in terms of travelling around it? We don't have much of a safety net when we destroy the Earth either as our nearest planets are miles and miles away and not exactly habitable.
You look at our existence and think of it as something wonderful, miraculous even, in need of explanation. I see it as something that just is and when you really think about it, in an infinite universe the likelihood of us existing is very high (certain even given that we do exist). I don't feel the need to invent something else to explain it.
Sure, you can sit on the fence and say there could be something more but it's not a position that is well founded. You could say that unicorns might exist too if you wanted, but it seems so improbable that the more reasonable position is to say that they don't. |
I didn't say anything about intelligent design.
But regardless, perhaps we're not ready to travel to the far flung reaches of the universe yet. Once we have the technology to fly there, presumably we'd also have the tech to colonise, and even defend ourselves from who knows what?
I think it's a couple of times you've mentioned an infinite universe. Another thing I've not mentioned. Where's the evidence the universe is infinite?
Not sure why you keep bringing up a fantasy horse from fictional stories. We've discussed it and it's not really relevant. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:34 - Aug 5 with 4409 views | Ryorry |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:17 - Aug 5 by Libero |
I dunno, you've never really struck me as being lacking in confidence... |
I'm assuming you're joshing there, but seriously, I think many people present as self-confident when under the surface they're actually pretty much jelly-like shakers! | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:35 - Aug 5 with 4401 views | Libero |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:23 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
Decent theory. One of my mates who lies so much that I literally never know if he's telling the truth or not mainly does it to inflate his image. On one of the very rare occasions he admits it instead of point blank denying it even when confronted with evidence he says it's because he wants us to think better of him and we would be bored if he just spoke normally. Which we've assured him is the complete opposite of reality where we in fact get pissed off with the lies and prefer him during his rare days of honesty. It never lasts though and he goes back to lying withing 48 hours every time.
I genuinely think he is addicted to lying. It becomes so second nature that people begin to lie about more and more until they are lying about mundane details of every day life. |
Your description reminds me of a couple of blokes I know through mutual friends. If you're out on a session and they turn up it's a f*cking nightmare.
Grown men with self appointed cringey nicknames, acting like berks in a desperate attempt to be liked.
I've taken to just going home if they arrive. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 12:39]
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:36 - Aug 5 with 4392 views | Herbivore |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:32 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue |
I didn't say anything about intelligent design.
But regardless, perhaps we're not ready to travel to the far flung reaches of the universe yet. Once we have the technology to fly there, presumably we'd also have the tech to colonise, and even defend ourselves from who knows what?
I think it's a couple of times you've mentioned an infinite universe. Another thing I've not mentioned. Where's the evidence the universe is infinite?
Not sure why you keep bringing up a fantasy horse from fictional stories. We've discussed it and it's not really relevant. |
It's what is known as an analogy, Dollers. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:39 - Aug 5 with 4370 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 11:44 - Aug 5 by StokieBlue |
Laws are fundamental properties, they don't "come" from anywhere. You are thinking about this all wrong. Just because you don't understand it that doesn't mean there is a design, creator or anything else.
"1. Where did those laws come from? Gravity, for example, is something I've always struggled to get my head around. What is making it pull towards itself?"
Gravity doesn't pull towards itself, it's a property of the curvature of space-time. Perhaps time to brush up on some of your relativity?
"2. I'm not sure you can definitely say "it didn't grow from nothing" as we don't know yet. The problem is you can't really have something coming from nothing... and yet there surely must've been a point when there was nothing. As far as our brains can work out, we shouldn't exist because neither of those states can be true. Yet here we are."
Not really sure what you are trying to say here. Everything flows from fundamental laws. There were rocks, they joined together under gravity, ice pelted the Earth from comets and amino acids began to form. This continues on through understood laws until you get to where you are today.
You seem to be saying that if at point we don't have 100% of the answers you can invoke some form of mysticism and that's frankly nonsense.
"3. Therefore there must be something supernatural going on... or at least something beyond our understanding. Why, for example, are humans as intelligent as they are? It's not needed for evolution... we're a long way away from any other animal intelligence-wise, but they seem to have evolved perfectly fine."
I'm sorry but this whole paragraph is just horrible. If it's beyond our understanding that doesn't mean it is supernatural. You have absolutely no evidence to invoke such a claim.
As for intelligence, it's not "needed" for evolution but it can be a product of evolution and one that takes the species out of evolutionary competition (as it has done for humans). Our oversized brain is probably the root of our intelligence and that can be directly traced to the conversion to hunting and cooking meat and thus the increase in protein intake. Our brains tripled in size once we started taking on easy to digest protein.
Evolution and intelligence have nothing to do with each other, I am not even sure why you are putting them in the same sentences.
I really think you need to do some reading around these subjects.
SB |
I think picking me up on the vagaries of how gravity works is a bit naughty. The point is why does it do what it does?
Not sure what you're not understanding in point 2, and you seemed to have glossed over the actual point in order to tell me how the Earth formed. The point I was making is that presumably there was a point where there was nothing... but also there can't be a point where there was nothing. Neither explanation works but one of them must do. This paradox is what I'm getting at - so there must be something outside our normal understanding to explain this.
I take your point on point 3. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:43 - Aug 5 with 4352 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:36 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
It's what is known as an analogy, Dollers. |
I know what an analogy is thanks. I also know when one doesn't work.
You seemed to have used it to sidestep the rest of my questions. So it has worked in a way. | |
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:46 - Aug 5 with 4341 views | Libero |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:34 - Aug 5 by Ryorry |
I'm assuming you're joshing there, but seriously, I think many people present as self-confident when under the surface they're actually pretty much jelly-like shakers! |
Yes, I'm taking the piss.
Yeah, we all know people like that and can relate to a degree. I was in a working band that toured extensively for a few years, I was grotesquely over weight, really mentally unwell and self harming a lot, yet every night I'd go out on stage and put on a polar opposite persona.
There's another subsection of people who struggle in the scenarios mentioned, who nobody has mentioned in this thread!
People who spend the majority of their life having everything work out for them.
If you spend enough time living your life and it all going relatively well without any real challenges, it appears to create a level of security and certainty which effects your ability to even consider that what you've done/said might not be right. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 12:54]
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| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 12:51 - Aug 5 with 4325 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 15:05 - Aug 4 by J2BLUE |
I have found an increasing number of people are becoming unbeatable when arguing. It's only really possible to beat someone when they acknowledge they are wrong. More and more people I come into contact with just refuse to acknowledge evidence. I know several people who could be confronted with multiple pieces of undeniable evidence and refuse to admit they are wrong. It's very odd.
Increasingly used by people who are caught lying and then just keep saying 'no' even when you present undeniable proof to their face.
It's incredibly irritating and for them, quite effective. |
'My opinion is worth more than your fact' thinking. | | | |
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