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The next time anyone feels they have to absolutely win an argument, have the last say on a thread, pile in or claim to be piled into, maybe remember this:
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 15:16 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE
Completely agree with this. I decided to stop whinging and change things. I've learnt so much in the last year which I can apply to the rest of my life. For a long time I was quite bitter at how many people I know who just had things handed to them. People who would never have got opportunities on their own were given great jobs etc because of who they know or work for the family business on good money doing about 20 hours a week of 'work'. I find these people have a very different outlook on life and really don't understand the real world. They seem to have a disconnect when it comes to empathy and think everyone sails through life stress free like they do.
I'm less bitter now. I know what I want. I'm trying not to compare my life to theirs.
The best bit of advice I heard was rather than comparing your life to others, compare yourself to a previous version of yourself. Then make adjustments that mean you're improving on you (if you're not already).
The current version of me is way better than the old one, so I'm happy in that.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:24 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
The best bit of advice I heard was rather than comparing your life to others, compare yourself to a previous version of yourself. Then make adjustments that mean you're improving on you (if you're not already).
The current version of me is way better than the old one, so I'm happy in that.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:10 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
I've watched The Planets with Professor Brian Cox. He said that it's REMARKABLE life exists. The requirements for it are so exact that it is indeed very lucky we're here at all. Just one tiny thing not in place and we'd be like Mars - dead.
So when you say "no they don't" whom are you referring to?
So you've cited a single person from a documentary made 10 years ago which is certainly not the position of most scientists nowadays. It's also not what he said, he said he thinks microbial life is everywhere in the universe but that there might only be one civilisation in the milky way at the moment which is us. He also deliberately restricts himself to this galaxy and not the universe.
He's even stated it again recently on his podcast that life must exist:
If you want to go down the TV route then virtually every space episode of Horizon is loaded with scientists saying life must exist elsewhere. There are countless articles online which you could Google - I am not going to make a list of hundreds of scientists because you demand it.
I honestly think you need to read around this subject a bit more, it's interesting and you will probably enjoy it. Watching The Planets on TV really isn't enough to make sweeping assertions.
SB
[Post edited 5 Aug 2020 16:39]
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Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:33 - Aug 5 with 4402 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:20 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
It was Mars yeah, because Mars is in the habitable zone along with us. However, and I think this is right from memory, it had a weaker atmosphere than us, so was less protected, possibly to do with weaker gravity as well, so if life did develop it died out (or was destroyed by meteorite collisions, and then the planet died which in turn made it uninhabitable)
But they don't have any proof of this, it's all speculation. Hopefully the new Mars rover will find something next year.
This is nearly right. Mars originally had a liquid core like the Earth which produced a magnetic field which diverted the solar winds. Mars was however smaller so this cooled much more quickly than the Earth and as the magnetic field weakened the solar wind striped away the atmosphere.
However it is almost conclusive that Mars used to have oceans and thus life possibly could have developed. It's unlikely but it might still be there, tardigrades for instance can be frozen and then reanimated at a later time and also survive in the vacuum of space.
SB
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Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:46 - Aug 5 with 4378 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:28 - Aug 5 by StokieBlue
So you've cited a single person from a documentary made 10 years ago which is certainly not the position of most scientists nowadays. It's also not what he said, he said he thinks microbial life is everywhere in the universe but that there might only be one civilisation in the milky way at the moment which is us. He also deliberately restricts himself to this galaxy and not the universe.
He's even stated it again recently on his podcast that life must exist:
If you want to go down the TV route then virtually every space episode of Horizon is loaded with scientists saying life must exist elsewhere. There are countless articles online which you could Google - I am not going to make a list of hundreds of scientists because you demand it.
I honestly think you need to read around this subject a bit more, it's interesting and you will probably enjoy it. Watching The Planets on TV really isn't enough to make sweeping assertions.
SB
[Post edited 5 Aug 2020 16:39]
I didn't even ask, let alone demand, you list hundreds of scientists!
You must be thinking of a different series, the one I'm talking about came out last year.
I fully accept and subscribe to the theory that life likely exists somewhere else. That doesn't make it any less extraordinary though.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:33 - Aug 5 by StokieBlue
This is nearly right. Mars originally had a liquid core like the Earth which produced a magnetic field which diverted the solar winds. Mars was however smaller so this cooled much more quickly than the Earth and as the magnetic field weakened the solar wind striped away the atmosphere.
However it is almost conclusive that Mars used to have oceans and thus life possibly could have developed. It's unlikely but it might still be there, tardigrades for instance can be frozen and then reanimated at a later time and also survive in the vacuum of space.
SB
Yeah, that's it.
Fascinating stuff. Apologies if I get things a bit wrong, I do love chatting about this sort of stuff though. I wish they'd taught cosmology in school, would've been far more interesting than long division.
You might think me keeping an open mind on god/meaning isn't very scientific - you should talk to my girlfriend. She has a host of superstitions, believes in horoscopes and prays to every full moon!
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:51 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
Yeah, that's it.
Fascinating stuff. Apologies if I get things a bit wrong, I do love chatting about this sort of stuff though. I wish they'd taught cosmology in school, would've been far more interesting than long division.
You might think me keeping an open mind on god/meaning isn't very scientific - you should talk to my girlfriend. She has a host of superstitions, believes in horoscopes and prays to every full moon!
Bonkers in the nut.
Better to get things mostly correct than not be willing to learn and expand ones knowledge :).
Never too late to go back and learn cosmology :).
SB
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1
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:57 - Aug 5 with 4359 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:06 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
Ok perhaps you misunderstood, or I worded it badly. I was asking WHY it acts in the way it does. We know what it does.
I'm also not invoking unprovable mysticism. The strange thing that's going on (and the meaning of it) MAY have an explanation one day (and be provable). That's all I'm saying.
Just like there was no proof of black holes, and now there is - as I mentioned earlier but you guys seem to have swept under the carpet (a much better analogy than unicorns).
All I'm saying really is keep an open mind. There's no point asserting something as fact when we don't know either way. As I said to Herbs, I can understand fundamentalist religious types making strong assertions (because they want people to join their faith). Atheists don't believe in anything, so it seems a bit odd to shout about it.
WHAT'S THE TRUTH? - NO GOD! WHAT SHALL WE DO ABOUT IT? - erm, nothing really.
Although black holes have only recently been observed they have been known about for some time and their existence has been able to be theorised based on the laws of physics and based on observations of other phenomena in the universe. You are proposing some greater supernatural force that underpins or began the universe for which there is no basis at all. It is essentially a form of mythicism. Unicorns are a much more apt analogy for this than black holes.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:55 - Aug 5 by StokieBlue
Better to get things mostly correct than not be willing to learn and expand ones knowledge :).
Never too late to go back and learn cosmology :).
SB
I'm buying and devouring so many science-y books these days it's unreal (some of which may have even been recommended by your good self). Science at school was boring as feck.
Recently I've read;
Imagined Life (Trefil & Summers) The Idiot Brain (Dean Burnett) A Universe From Nothing (Lawrence Krauss) Physics Of The Impossible (Michio Kaku) Psychedelic Apes (Alex Bese)
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:06 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
I'm buying and devouring so many science-y books these days it's unreal (some of which may have even been recommended by your good self). Science at school was boring as feck.
Recently I've read;
Imagined Life (Trefil & Summers) The Idiot Brain (Dean Burnett) A Universe From Nothing (Lawrence Krauss) Physics Of The Impossible (Michio Kaku) Psychedelic Apes (Alex Bese)
and am currently reading;
Physics of the future (Michio Kaku)
Michio Kaku is one of the biggest proponents of intelligent life existing and being contactable.
Enjoy the reading! Lockdown is probably helpful in that regard.
SB
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1
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:15 - Aug 5 with 4312 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:06 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
Ok perhaps you misunderstood, or I worded it badly. I was asking WHY it acts in the way it does. We know what it does.
I'm also not invoking unprovable mysticism. The strange thing that's going on (and the meaning of it) MAY have an explanation one day (and be provable). That's all I'm saying.
Just like there was no proof of black holes, and now there is - as I mentioned earlier but you guys seem to have swept under the carpet (a much better analogy than unicorns).
All I'm saying really is keep an open mind. There's no point asserting something as fact when we don't know either way. As I said to Herbs, I can understand fundamentalist religious types making strong assertions (because they want people to join their faith). Atheists don't believe in anything, so it seems a bit odd to shout about it.
WHAT'S THE TRUTH? - NO GOD! WHAT SHALL WE DO ABOUT IT? - erm, nothing really.
If you want to come at it from a non-scientific angle, you can quite easily.
I think it's interesting how buddhism in its purest most philosophical form finds the meaning of life to be letting go and realising that there is no meaning, you're just a part of this universe.
It's my least favourite phrase when people use it to excuse being a dick but "It is what it is" - and I think that's something that both scientists and buddhist transcendentalists are both heading towards. So "meaning" itself is more likely to be the trap that stops us seeing things for what they really are.
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Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:22 - Aug 5 with 4282 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:02 - Aug 5 by Herbivore
Although black holes have only recently been observed they have been known about for some time and their existence has been able to be theorised based on the laws of physics and based on observations of other phenomena in the universe. You are proposing some greater supernatural force that underpins or began the universe for which there is no basis at all. It is essentially a form of mythicism. Unicorns are a much more apt analogy for this than black holes.
I thought you were "leaving it there"?
As already stated - we both know unicorns are something that was made up for fairytales. It's a silly analogy designed to ridicule. Black holes is a much better one. Whether they've been known about for "some time" or not - there was a time where there was no proof of their existence, and you would've taken that position on here. You'd have said they're a nice idea from science fiction and been all condescending about anyone suggesting they might be real.
Equally I'm sure Henry Viii would've said flying machines, photography and transmitting messages through the air are impossible.
I think you're getting hung up on the 'religious' god, if that's not too much of a contradiction. I'm just talking about the 'thing' that caused this universe to happen. It did happen, so something caused it. It could be some kind of 'force' no more supernatural than magnetism, once we know what it is.
Why does anything exist? That's essentially what I'm asking, and I'm not really saying it could be a god in the sense of an old man with a big white beard. I've not even suggested it's intelligent (you brought in intelligent design as a straw man, I never mentioned it). I'm saying there might be some 'thing' that caused it.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 15:16 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE
Completely agree with this. I decided to stop whinging and change things. I've learnt so much in the last year which I can apply to the rest of my life. For a long time I was quite bitter at how many people I know who just had things handed to them. People who would never have got opportunities on their own were given great jobs etc because of who they know or work for the family business on good money doing about 20 hours a week of 'work'. I find these people have a very different outlook on life and really don't understand the real world. They seem to have a disconnect when it comes to empathy and think everyone sails through life stress free like they do.
I'm less bitter now. I know what I want. I'm trying not to compare my life to theirs.
"People who would never have got opportunities on their own were given great jobs etc because of who they know or work for the family business on good money doing about 20 hours a week of 'work'. I find these people have a very different outlook on life and really don't understand the real world. They seem to have a disconnect when it comes to empathy and think everyone sails through life stress free like they do."
Now which UK political party does that remind me of ...
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:15 - Aug 5 by StokieBlue
Michio Kaku is one of the biggest proponents of intelligent life existing and being contactable.
Enjoy the reading! Lockdown is probably helpful in that regard.
SB
I'm pretty sure other life must be out there. The numbers are too big for it not to be. Whether it's intelligent or not is another matter. If there were intelligent life other than on Earth, you'd think we'd have got some kind of signal by now.
Then again, we've only been able to measure a tiny portion of space so far.
I don't know about you, but I remember the moment when I was a kid and I realised no-one knows what's out there, apart from the relatively near stuff. That freaked me out at first. No-one knows what the feck is going on?!?
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:22 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
I thought you were "leaving it there"?
As already stated - we both know unicorns are something that was made up for fairytales. It's a silly analogy designed to ridicule. Black holes is a much better one. Whether they've been known about for "some time" or not - there was a time where there was no proof of their existence, and you would've taken that position on here. You'd have said they're a nice idea from science fiction and been all condescending about anyone suggesting they might be real.
Equally I'm sure Henry Viii would've said flying machines, photography and transmitting messages through the air are impossible.
I think you're getting hung up on the 'religious' god, if that's not too much of a contradiction. I'm just talking about the 'thing' that caused this universe to happen. It did happen, so something caused it. It could be some kind of 'force' no more supernatural than magnetism, once we know what it is.
Why does anything exist? That's essentially what I'm asking, and I'm not really saying it could be a god in the sense of an old man with a big white beard. I've not even suggested it's intelligent (you brought in intelligent design as a straw man, I never mentioned it). I'm saying there might be some 'thing' that caused it.
You have suggested a number of times that you think the fact we exist and have consciousness and so on seems something that is implausible that it happened by chance. If it didn't happen by chance it must have happened by some sort of deliberate act, it's really not much of a step from there to intelligent design. And for life to have genuine meaning, which was the original debate, surely that meaning would need to have been built into it? Otherwise we're back to individuals ascribing meaning and that is something quite different.
The rest of your argument is all over the place. You're comparing man made inventions to your supernatural force that gives meaning to life whilst accusing others of straw manning. Come off it, mate.
The question "why does anything exist?" is misplaced for me. There is no why, it just does.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:28 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
I'm pretty sure other life must be out there. The numbers are too big for it not to be. Whether it's intelligent or not is another matter. If there were intelligent life other than on Earth, you'd think we'd have got some kind of signal by now.
Then again, we've only been able to measure a tiny portion of space so far.
I don't know about you, but I remember the moment when I was a kid and I realised no-one knows what's out there, apart from the relatively near stuff. That freaked me out at first. No-one knows what the feck is going on?!?
It depends how you quantify intelligent.
For instance, octopus are very intelligent but due to them evolving in a water-based environment it's unlikely they could ever make the leap into technology similar to ours on even a small scale as most depend on fire at some stage in their development and electricity really doesn't like water.
There are also a other possibilities:
- Civilisations are only detectable for a short period as they move from radio which is imprecise and moves out into space to tight-beam communication which doesn't leave the locality of their planet.
- They might not want to be contacted.
- They signals are not what we are looking for at the moment. Perhaps they use lasers or some other technology. We have just started looking for lasers but if it's something we don't know then we can't spot it.
What do you mean nobody knows what's out there? We have a very good idea what is out there on the larger scales.
SB
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2
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:50 - Aug 5 with 4226 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:28 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
I'm pretty sure other life must be out there. The numbers are too big for it not to be. Whether it's intelligent or not is another matter. If there were intelligent life other than on Earth, you'd think we'd have got some kind of signal by now.
Then again, we've only been able to measure a tiny portion of space so far.
I don't know about you, but I remember the moment when I was a kid and I realised no-one knows what's out there, apart from the relatively near stuff. That freaked me out at first. No-one knows what the feck is going on?!?
What's out there and what's going on may be as relevant as what's on Amazon Prime when I've already got HBO and Netflix. It's a different and unrelatable world.
And maybe that's a good thing. If contact were easy given the massive light years apart, and other beings had something to say, then I'd judge our massive advances in science over the last 100 years and our escape from our own world in an entirely different light. We could conceivably be considered a threat.
So Marconi sending radio signals and especially Armstrong landing on the moon might be exactly the sort of trigger to a near civilization that we're getting too big for our boots and need sorting out.
Like an ant colony that gets into a kitchen ... maybe there are aliens out there following us back to Earth with their intergalactic kettle ready to pour water down our hole right about .... now.
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Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:59 - Aug 5 with 4207 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:50 - Aug 5 by Darth_Koont
What's out there and what's going on may be as relevant as what's on Amazon Prime when I've already got HBO and Netflix. It's a different and unrelatable world.
And maybe that's a good thing. If contact were easy given the massive light years apart, and other beings had something to say, then I'd judge our massive advances in science over the last 100 years and our escape from our own world in an entirely different light. We could conceivably be considered a threat.
So Marconi sending radio signals and especially Armstrong landing on the moon might be exactly the sort of trigger to a near civilization that we're getting too big for our boots and need sorting out.
Like an ant colony that gets into a kitchen ... maybe there are aliens out there following us back to Earth with their intergalactic kettle ready to pour water down our hole right about .... now.
Looks like you got us back to where Zombies started us out - what a neat loop, GroundHuman Day, perfect Karma - congratulations, you sorted it no.42!
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:38 - Aug 5 by Herbivore
You have suggested a number of times that you think the fact we exist and have consciousness and so on seems something that is implausible that it happened by chance. If it didn't happen by chance it must have happened by some sort of deliberate act, it's really not much of a step from there to intelligent design. And for life to have genuine meaning, which was the original debate, surely that meaning would need to have been built into it? Otherwise we're back to individuals ascribing meaning and that is something quite different.
The rest of your argument is all over the place. You're comparing man made inventions to your supernatural force that gives meaning to life whilst accusing others of straw manning. Come off it, mate.
The question "why does anything exist?" is misplaced for me. There is no why, it just does.
Indeed. There are lots of gazillion to one shots in our development. But that's what you'd expect after billions of years and trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of physical interactions that lead to trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of chemical reactions that lead to biological life that's then had trillions of trillions of trillions of goes.
All of this is cumulative to the point that it seems unlikely that something like consciousness wouldn't eventually develop.
It's like a way way slower and completely randomized machine learning process.
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Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:02 - Aug 5 with 4198 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:59 - Aug 5 by Darth_Koont
Indeed. There are lots of gazillion to one shots in our development. But that's what you'd expect after billions of years and trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of physical interactions that lead to trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of chemical reactions that lead to biological life that's then had trillions of trillions of trillions of goes.
All of this is cumulative to the point that it seems unlikely that something like consciousness wouldn't eventually develop.
It's like a way way slower and completely randomized machine learning process.
I always think a lottery win is a good analogy. The odds of me winning it are astronomical and if I won it would be absolutely astounding and I'd find it hard to believe that it was really happening. However, so many lottery tickets are purchased that someone winning it is inevitable and actually it is not remotely surprising or fantastic that someone somewhere wins the lottery and it certainly doesn't require any belief in supernatural forces to explain it.
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:59 - Aug 5 by Darth_Koont
Indeed. There are lots of gazillion to one shots in our development. But that's what you'd expect after billions of years and trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of physical interactions that lead to trillions of trillions of trillions etc. of chemical reactions that lead to biological life that's then had trillions of trillions of trillions of goes.
All of this is cumulative to the point that it seems unlikely that something like consciousness wouldn't eventually develop.
It's like a way way slower and completely randomized machine learning process.
As you say, life has trillions of goes to get things "right" but that huge number of attempts means that a near-optimal solution is usually found. For instance the eye has developed on at least 6 independent occasions it seems and an ichthyosaur looks an awful lot like a dolphin but they are totally different parts of the tree and separated by 100m years. Convergent evolution is an interesting topic.
I've written some genetic algorithms to solve optimisation problems and it's more efficient than one would perhaps expect given enough "goes".
SB
[Post edited 5 Aug 2020 18:05]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
1
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:05 - Aug 5 with 4185 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:02 - Aug 5 by Herbivore
I always think a lottery win is a good analogy. The odds of me winning it are astronomical and if I won it would be absolutely astounding and I'd find it hard to believe that it was really happening. However, so many lottery tickets are purchased that someone winning it is inevitable and actually it is not remotely surprising or fantastic that someone somewhere wins the lottery and it certainly doesn't require any belief in supernatural forces to explain it.
Exactly. Even if there's a rollover for a billion years.
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1
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 18:12 - Aug 5 with 4174 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 16:51 - Aug 5 by BrixtonBlue
Yeah, that's it.
Fascinating stuff. Apologies if I get things a bit wrong, I do love chatting about this sort of stuff though. I wish they'd taught cosmology in school, would've been far more interesting than long division.
You might think me keeping an open mind on god/meaning isn't very scientific - you should talk to my girlfriend. She has a host of superstitions, believes in horoscopes and prays to every full moon!
Bonkers in the nut.
Nothing wrong with your girlfriend having strange beliefs but probably good that you're there as a handler.
That's her looking for the meaning of life by the way. This stuff relies on trying to provide brain-soothing patterns for the world, which is a form of thinking we're addicted to.
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0
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 19:35 - Aug 5 with 4128 views
Nothing really matters, anyone can see, nothing really matters much... on 17:25 - Aug 5 by Ryorry
"People who would never have got opportunities on their own were given great jobs etc because of who they know or work for the family business on good money doing about 20 hours a week of 'work'. I find these people have a very different outlook on life and really don't understand the real world. They seem to have a disconnect when it comes to empathy and think everyone sails through life stress free like they do."
Now which UK political party does that remind me of ...
Sorry Rorry . Disagree. I guess that you do not read Private Eye , "get out much". etc.?
"Corruption" is not the preserve of one party.
C-units always gravitate towards money/power.
Nepotism/"old boys networks"/"mates rates" usually being the result.
Right/left/central office, always the same in the end.
At all levels/races of humanity.
My apologies for being such a cynical bastard. ;))
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