| Kicking off in Belarus on 08:08 - Aug 10 with 3481 views | Steve_M |
Lukashenko desperate to hang on to power, the official exit polls were giving him 90 odd per cent of the vote yesterday. That after arresting opposition candidates and denying access to any non-state media.
It will probably end badly with the usual post-Soviet respect for dissent and independent thought. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 8:42]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 09:01 - Aug 10 with 3433 views | Guthrum |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 08:08 - Aug 10 by Steve_M |
Lukashenko desperate to hang on to power, the official exit polls were giving him 90 odd per cent of the vote yesterday. That after arresting opposition candidates and denying access to any non-state media.
It will probably end badly with the usual post-Soviet respect for dissent and independent thought. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 8:42]
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I recall reading that Lukashenko has had a bit of a falling out with Putin, so that may weaken the former's chances of holding on. On the other hand, Russia is not going to want another Ukraine* situation on their doorstep.
* Tho I don't think there is the same sort of historical bitterness over former Soviet brutality in Belarus. |  |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 09:58 - Aug 10 with 3405 views | Sharkey |
I have some Belarusian friends, and two of them had loved ones ( a husband and a brother respectively) involved in the last round of protests, which was about ten years ago. Both men were sent to ' psychiatric hospitals'. According to Amnesty International, the husband was probably killed by being thrown out of a window, though the authorities claimed it was suicide. The brother, who was still at school when it happened , was eventually released but a complete mess psychologically and nowadays entirely estranged from his family. These friends have slightly different attitudes this morning. One is in despair, saying that there is no hope. The other, who is in Minsk, is more optimistic, saying that in some provincial towns the police declined to show violence to the protesters, because the main thug police had all been deployed in Minsk. Brave people, and I wish our media would give them more support. |  | | |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:39 - Aug 10 with 3352 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 09:58 - Aug 10 by Sharkey |
I have some Belarusian friends, and two of them had loved ones ( a husband and a brother respectively) involved in the last round of protests, which was about ten years ago. Both men were sent to ' psychiatric hospitals'. According to Amnesty International, the husband was probably killed by being thrown out of a window, though the authorities claimed it was suicide. The brother, who was still at school when it happened , was eventually released but a complete mess psychologically and nowadays entirely estranged from his family. These friends have slightly different attitudes this morning. One is in despair, saying that there is no hope. The other, who is in Minsk, is more optimistic, saying that in some provincial towns the police declined to show violence to the protesters, because the main thug police had all been deployed in Minsk. Brave people, and I wish our media would give them more support. |
Reports outside Minsk suggest a lot of cops are standing down which is good, the system falls apart when people wake up to the fact law is a man made political stance and not a judgement on right vs wrong.
Your last sentence - a large chunk of MSM are either too afraid to challenge their own powers that be or actively get hard at the idea of the UK having a more authoritarian government so I can’t see it. Only have to look at this week’s Photoshop image and headline about Johnson’s camping trip in The S*n to see that. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 11:41]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:42 - Aug 10 with 3341 views | StokieBlue |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:39 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Reports outside Minsk suggest a lot of cops are standing down which is good, the system falls apart when people wake up to the fact law is a man made political stance and not a judgement on right vs wrong.
Your last sentence - a large chunk of MSM are either too afraid to challenge their own powers that be or actively get hard at the idea of the UK having a more authoritarian government so I can’t see it. Only have to look at this week’s Photoshop image and headline about Johnson’s camping trip in The S*n to see that. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 11:41]
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"the system falls apart when people wake up to the fact law is a man made political stance and not a judgement on right vs wrong."
Law in general or the specific laws in Belarus?
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:42 - Aug 10 with 3335 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:42 - Aug 10 by StokieBlue |
"the system falls apart when people wake up to the fact law is a man made political stance and not a judgement on right vs wrong."
Law in general or the specific laws in Belarus?
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Law in general. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:45 - Aug 10 with 3330 views | StokieBlue |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:42 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Law in general. |
Really not sure about that.
Many laws have been constant throughout time and across borders, murder for instance is clearly a judgement on what is right or wrong and not a man-made political judgement. You could cite the same for most the foundational crimes.
That doesn't mean that politically based laws don't exist, they clearly do (see HK latest laws) but I don't believe the majority of the base is politically motivated.
SB [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 11:46]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:48 - Aug 10 with 3319 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:45 - Aug 10 by StokieBlue |
Really not sure about that.
Many laws have been constant throughout time and across borders, murder for instance is clearly a judgement on what is right or wrong and not a man-made political judgement. You could cite the same for most the foundational crimes.
That doesn't mean that politically based laws don't exist, they clearly do (see HK latest laws) but I don't believe the majority of the base is politically motivated.
SB [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 11:46]
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Owning slaves used to be legal.
Women voting used to be illegal.
Tax havens are still legal.
Need I go on? | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:53 - Aug 10 with 3309 views | StokieBlue |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:48 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Owning slaves used to be legal.
Women voting used to be illegal.
Tax havens are still legal.
Need I go on? |
Yes you do because that is cherry picking a few select laws out of the myriad of laws that exist which clearly do distinguish right from wrong. They are also historic laws, two of which haven't been the case for more than a century. I already said that *some* laws can of course be politically motivated.
You totally ignored my argument about the foundations of the law, selected a few examples which agree with your echo-chamber and then decided my perfectly reasonable post was worthy of a down-vote.
SB [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 11:53]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 12:56 - Aug 10 with 3102 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 11:42 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Law in general. |
So you won't mind if someone kicks your front door in during the night and takes all your possessions? |  | | |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:01 - Aug 10 with 3084 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 12:56 - Aug 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
So you won't mind if someone kicks your front door in during the night and takes all your possessions? |
Whatteraboutery.
Pointing out many laws are not moral is not saying all laws are immoral.
But you know that.
If the person who kicked in my door was state employed it would be legal regardless of my guilt. And if I had enough money I could buy my way above the law. Like our current oligarchs influencing government do.
It's really not a hard concept to grasp that laws should be questioned and reviewed. That's why they change all the time.
You could argue sending the Navy to fend off small boats of desperate human beings is the law, but it's certainly not moral (unless you're a bit racist). [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:02]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:06 - Aug 10 with 3066 views | giant_stow |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:01 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Whatteraboutery.
Pointing out many laws are not moral is not saying all laws are immoral.
But you know that.
If the person who kicked in my door was state employed it would be legal regardless of my guilt. And if I had enough money I could buy my way above the law. Like our current oligarchs influencing government do.
It's really not a hard concept to grasp that laws should be questioned and reviewed. That's why they change all the time.
You could argue sending the Navy to fend off small boats of desperate human beings is the law, but it's certainly not moral (unless you're a bit racist). [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:02]
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out of interest, are you saying that every migrant boat escaping from France should be allowed over?
I'm not sure how I feel about that myself, but France isn't any more dangerous than the UK.
Agree about questioning *some* laws on the edge of society’s general viewpoints - others are obviously sacrosanct [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:06]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:06 - Aug 10 with 3063 views | Herbivore |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:01 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
Whatteraboutery.
Pointing out many laws are not moral is not saying all laws are immoral.
But you know that.
If the person who kicked in my door was state employed it would be legal regardless of my guilt. And if I had enough money I could buy my way above the law. Like our current oligarchs influencing government do.
It's really not a hard concept to grasp that laws should be questioned and reviewed. That's why they change all the time.
You could argue sending the Navy to fend off small boats of desperate human beings is the law, but it's certainly not moral (unless you're a bit racist). [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:02]
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Questioning and reviewing particular laws is fine. Questioning the law on a foundational level is a much stronger position and more tricky to justify. All societies have some form of ground rules that have to be adhered to in order to maintain social cohesion. Even remote tribes that exist apart from modern democracy and capitalist forces generate their own set of laws and means for meting out justice. |  |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:15 - Aug 10 with 3027 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:06 - Aug 10 by Herbivore |
Questioning and reviewing particular laws is fine. Questioning the law on a foundational level is a much stronger position and more tricky to justify. All societies have some form of ground rules that have to be adhered to in order to maintain social cohesion. Even remote tribes that exist apart from modern democracy and capitalist forces generate their own set of laws and means for meting out justice. |
The law is useless when you can be rich enough to live outside the law. Or worse still when those who are also guilty are high up enough in the system to affect those laws. What has happened in Belarus could happen in the West, we already seem to have a government above the law who now want to change the rules more to benefit them. Here's a fun recent example.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/06/the-attack-planning-laws-r | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:18 - Aug 10 with 3017 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:06 - Aug 10 by giant_stow |
out of interest, are you saying that every migrant boat escaping from France should be allowed over?
I'm not sure how I feel about that myself, but France isn't any more dangerous than the UK.
Agree about questioning *some* laws on the edge of society’s general viewpoints - others are obviously sacrosanct [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:06]
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If you spoke German but not Polish and were stuck in Poland, would you not want to go somewhere where you had more chance of work? If you had family in Germany already would you not want to be with them?
The human element often gets lost in the asylum row.
The real enemy arrives in a limo, not a rubber dingy. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:19 - Aug 10 with 3011 views | Herbivore |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:15 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
The law is useless when you can be rich enough to live outside the law. Or worse still when those who are also guilty are high up enough in the system to affect those laws. What has happened in Belarus could happen in the West, we already seem to have a government above the law who now want to change the rules more to benefit them. Here's a fun recent example.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/06/the-attack-planning-laws-r |
That's an example of a specific law about relaxing planning regulations. I don't really see how that justifies thinking that law in general is a bad thing. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:22 - Aug 10 with 3000 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:19 - Aug 10 by Herbivore |
That's an example of a specific law about relaxing planning regulations. I don't really see how that justifies thinking that law in general is a bad thing. |
i didn't say law in general was a bad thing, did I? I just said it was political. A lot of it is. Like when rich Tory donors get to the Lords to influence restrictions and benefit their bank account.
In a more sensible country we'd be outraged. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:23]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:29 - Aug 10 with 2964 views | Herbivore |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:22 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
i didn't say law in general was a bad thing, did I? I just said it was political. A lot of it is. Like when rich Tory donors get to the Lords to influence restrictions and benefit their bank account.
In a more sensible country we'd be outraged. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:23]
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In response to Stokie asking whether you were talking about there being issues with law in general or specific laws you replied "law in general". So I took that as meaning that you see law in general as problematic.
Much of the law and our legal system works well, just last year the separation of executive and legislature in the UK meant that Johnson's attempts to prorogue parliament were shut down by the courts. Currently Jolyon Maugham is bringing a case against the government for handing out PPE contracts to their mates.
Of course the legal system isn't perfect, but to question law in general seems rather extreme and I'm not sure what the basis of it is. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:37 - Aug 10 with 2946 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:29 - Aug 10 by Herbivore |
In response to Stokie asking whether you were talking about there being issues with law in general or specific laws you replied "law in general". So I took that as meaning that you see law in general as problematic.
Much of the law and our legal system works well, just last year the separation of executive and legislature in the UK meant that Johnson's attempts to prorogue parliament were shut down by the courts. Currently Jolyon Maugham is bringing a case against the government for handing out PPE contracts to their mates.
Of course the legal system isn't perfect, but to question law in general seems rather extreme and I'm not sure what the basis of it is. |
He asked me if I meant law in general. Sounds like a loaded question to me.
Loads of laws are politically motivated though. Arguing the split doesn't change that.
If our legal system worked Brexit wouldn't be what it is. Because money and shutting down investigations puts one above it. That's the problem. Dragging up "BUT MURDER" or "BUT SOMEONE KICKING YOUR DOOR IN" doesn't take away from that point. As I stated above, it was whateraboutery.
Epstein got away with it for years and many of his friends still are. Prince Andrew is a good example. Or Classic Dom who most likely broke lock down more once and lied, but the police investigation took less than a week to say he's done no wrong. Another thing legal representatives have had to push on their own time based on moral judgement because the legal system has failed us.
The fact Jolyon is fighting tooth and nail to hold the current corrupt shambles to account shows how much money has corrupted our legal system. As I said, a more sensible country would be outraged but we've been dumbed down to digging into this stuff or caring on the whole.
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:38 - Aug 10 with 2933 views | giant_stow |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:18 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
If you spoke German but not Polish and were stuck in Poland, would you not want to go somewhere where you had more chance of work? If you had family in Germany already would you not want to be with them?
The human element often gets lost in the asylum row.
The real enemy arrives in a limo, not a rubber dingy. |
Yes, in you're example I'd definately want to moe to Germany. The trouble is, the Germans would have to ok this - I can't see how it should be an automatic right.
I hate to sound like a farage nut-job, but I don;t think unlimited immigration rights for all would be sensible (in our country at least). [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:40]
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:42 - Aug 10 with 2916 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:38 - Aug 10 by giant_stow |
Yes, in you're example I'd definately want to moe to Germany. The trouble is, the Germans would have to ok this - I can't see how it should be an automatic right.
I hate to sound like a farage nut-job, but I don;t think unlimited immigration rights for all would be sensible (in our country at least). [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:40]
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I believe borders are a dated concept, a form of divide and conquer, continue to prevent progress of humanity and encourage rampant nationalism that can be exploited by those who lack empathy and crave power.
Once you stem it down to that, you can probably see why I hold the position I do. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:45 - Aug 10 with 2901 views | giant_stow |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:42 - Aug 10 by monytowbray |
I believe borders are a dated concept, a form of divide and conquer, continue to prevent progress of humanity and encourage rampant nationalism that can be exploited by those who lack empathy and crave power.
Once you stem it down to that, you can probably see why I hold the position I do. |
Yeah, that helps to understand your position for sure. I can't agree as people tend to want to group of in tribes large or small and doing so means some control over who joins, so I;d put it down to human nature, rather than nationalism, persoanlly. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:50 - Aug 10 with 2882 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:06 - Aug 10 by giant_stow |
out of interest, are you saying that every migrant boat escaping from France should be allowed over?
I'm not sure how I feel about that myself, but France isn't any more dangerous than the UK.
Agree about questioning *some* laws on the edge of society’s general viewpoints - others are obviously sacrosanct [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 13:06]
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There's a big issue in France with migrants being targeted by gangs and traffickers, so just because it isn't any more dangerous for us doesn't necessarily mean it isn't for migrants.
It's lawful to claim asylum in this country, so yes we should allow every boat carrying asylum seekers safe entry. And then their claims will need to be processed (which should be done so much faster than the current 6 months+). Some will be allowed to stay, some won't.
But what's the alternative - turn the boats away knowing it could lead to their deaths? do we really want that on our consciences, just to appease some racist little Englanders? |  |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 14:01 - Aug 10 with 2859 views | giant_stow |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:50 - Aug 10 by Swansea_Blue |
There's a big issue in France with migrants being targeted by gangs and traffickers, so just because it isn't any more dangerous for us doesn't necessarily mean it isn't for migrants.
It's lawful to claim asylum in this country, so yes we should allow every boat carrying asylum seekers safe entry. And then their claims will need to be processed (which should be done so much faster than the current 6 months+). Some will be allowed to stay, some won't.
But what's the alternative - turn the boats away knowing it could lead to their deaths? do we really want that on our consciences, just to appease some racist little Englanders? |
No problem with Asylum seekers being given safe passage accross. But I guess thats where it get complicated in deciding who's a migrant / who's needs asylum.
I knew nothing about gangs targetting migrants in France, but then isn't that something for the french to correct? Sorry If I'm sounding harsh. | |
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| Kicking off in Belarus on 14:09 - Aug 10 with 2958 views | monytowbray |
| Kicking off in Belarus on 13:45 - Aug 10 by giant_stow |
Yeah, that helps to understand your position for sure. I can't agree as people tend to want to group of in tribes large or small and doing so means some control over who joins, so I;d put it down to human nature, rather than nationalism, persoanlly. |
I'd like to see a world of more fairness and collaboration. Technically we don't need hierarchies or governments to do that in a utopian future but we're a million miles off (and it would never be perfect).
But the system we have in place now - rampant capitalism, tech monopolies, unbelievable wealth gaps, growing nationalism, government corruption globally - ain't sustainable. We either go full totalitarian into one global government policed by rich elites or the system falls apart and we start from scratch to make a better world.
I know which side I'm rooting for... | |
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