| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:21 - Sep 7 with 3271 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:15 - Sep 7 by baxterbasics |
"You don't think maybe some people think black people should be treated equally in society then?"
Of course I do, as do most rationally thinking folks. Do you think this requires that I support left wing revolutionaries?
"Are you even familiar with the many, many stories of people being shot in their own homes by police in the States for example? Stopped in cars because of their colour?"
A few of them sure, I know what's going on. There's clearly a problem with American police in particular. But supporting the BLM organisation isn't going to help any. (Also, have you seen the stats for deaths in the last few years at the hands of UK police? Not much to get agitated about there).
"Ok with all that are you? 'They' should just accept their lot and keep quiet shouldn't 'they'."
You're really just putting words in my mouth now, I've said none of that.
At it's roots BLM is a Marxist organisation, blaming capitalism for all their woes, and looking to dismantle the traditional family.
They've said as much themselves, and I cannot support that, however much I hate racism. Thankfully it's not one or the other. |
Capitalism is an inherently exploitative system that creates, perpetuates and sustains huge social and economic inequalities. An organisation that stands fundamentally against inequality and wants genuine equality is hardly going to be in favour of such a system, especially when Black people are historically those finding themselves right down the thin end of the capitalist wedge. You don't bring about structural equality through supporting a system that perpetuates inequality. It is increasingly hard to sustain a position that is anti-racist whilst supporting a system that has proved itself to be utterly incapable of bringing about equality for people of colour. [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 18:34]
|  |
|  |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:23 - Sep 7 with 3263 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:21 - Sep 7 by Herbivore |
Capitalism is an inherently exploitative system that creates, perpetuates and sustains huge social and economic inequalities. An organisation that stands fundamentally against inequality and wants genuine equality is hardly going to be in favour of such a system, especially when Black people are historically those finding themselves right down the thin end of the capitalist wedge. You don't bring about structural equality through supporting a system that perpetuates inequality. It is increasingly hard to sustain a position that is anti-racist whilst supporting a system that has proved itself to be utterly incapable of bringing about equality for people of colour. [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 18:34]
|
Have a day off mate |  | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:27 - Sep 7 with 3253 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 16:57 - Sep 7 by monytowbray |
I think if we had an actual free press some of those issues would be resolved. There is literally nothing on your typical newspaper shop stand that represents my views.
Then again I don't care about what represents my views, I'd rather read proper investigative journalism that holds power to account. Byline Times is my main fix these days.
It still makes me laugh so many righties want the Beeb defunded considering they go no where near as hard as they should into the corruption and lies we are being fed. The BBC has almost become a PR arm for the Tories these days. The only reason they really want it gone is so they can implement their state funded Fox News style propaganda arm in the mainstream. If you want to know where Cummings is taking us, look at Russia. Classic Dom was also part of a right wing think tank that concluded the Tories should replace the Beeb with such a thing in the mid-00s if they wanted to cling to power.
Yet MSM, silence. |
You shouldn't really have a "main fix" you should watch / read from the myriad of different POV to make your judgment
You cant dismiss everything a conservative writer puts forward, equally a conservative writer shouldnt dismiss everything a left wing writer puts forward. I'm as likely to read Novara , watch the Young Turks , as I am to read the telegraph, or guardian. | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:30 - Sep 7 with 3236 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 16:07 - Sep 7 by hampstead_blue |
As Rory has said below, thank-you for the feedback.
It's good to get a better understanding of the literature that's out there.
I've not read his first book. In fact I'd never heard of him before I'd read this book.
"What are your opinions on the fact checking and cherry picking allegations that have followed him around, since that first book."
I have no opinion as I'd never heard of him prior to this book.
Thanks for sharing. |
So I did ask the question, where is the scientific data, and corresponding solutions, that suggest things are going to be fine in 50 years.
So far we have one book.
For a person, that is supposed to be a fan of science, this is not very impressive.
At the the moment looks like confirmation bias and making exaggerated claims to justify your stance. Both common mistakes and a form of dishonest debating.
Let’s go back again.
Why do you think scientists are wrong when they say there could be hundreds of millions of climate refugees in 50 years.
Why should humans not really be concerned about the loss of pollinators. |  | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:43 - Sep 7 with 3220 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 16:05 - Sep 7 by hampstead_blue |
Slow down.
I have not said the book is a gospel. I've simply put it out there as a very interesting read.
A lot of his ideas make sense but I am not hanging my hat on him by any means.
It's as simple as that.
Please don't tie me to an author and all his beliefs just because I called a book "very interesting". That has to stop. Thank-you.
I'll happily take a recommendation (audiobooks please) for another view on this topic. |
Try The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming
https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/The-Uninhabitable-Earth-Audiobook/0241399564 |  | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:35 - Sep 7 with 3186 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:23 - Sep 7 by jaseitfc2015 |
Have a day off mate |
Care to engage with the point, mate? [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 18:54]
| |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:55 - Sep 7 with 3166 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:35 - Sep 7 by Herbivore |
Care to engage with the point, mate? [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 18:54]
|
Oh you edited the jeb end bit out ... | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:56 - Sep 7 with 3162 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:55 - Sep 7 by jaseitfc2015 |
Oh you edited the jeb end bit out ... |
Yeah, decided it was a bit unnecessary. Care to engage with the point though mate rather than sniping from the sidelines? | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:12 - Sep 7 with 3139 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:56 - Sep 7 by Herbivore |
Yeah, decided it was a bit unnecessary. Care to engage with the point though mate rather than sniping from the sidelines? |
Well it was unnecessary and the receiver noticed it , so you could apologise.
I was just having a joke & don't think you should take this place so seriously & perceive it as a "snipe"
But your idea that capitalist needs to be brought down to bring about equality is wrong. We can have racial, gender, all types of equality within a capitalist if we have enough regulation, safe guards. Capitalism has done more the world over for people of colour than any other system ; look at the rise of countries in the americas, Africa, Asia. Sure there are issues with the system but from when capitalism arrived in latin América to now , the improvement is day and night. In colombia , in peru , in ecuador they disagree with you & I am more likely to listen to their view.
Anyway I'm going to jeb off , I've given you and your insults more than you deserve
Good evening | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:19 - Sep 7 with 3135 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 09:21 - Sep 5 by GaryCooper |
Do you agree with XR founder Roger Hallam when he states that people who do not agree with XR should have a bullet through their heads? |
That's not what he said... |  |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:21 - Sep 7 with 3133 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:28 - Sep 5 by nodge_blue |
I don't disagree with your sentiment but stopping me reading the times doesn't achieve that.
And also - this is a democracy. No one has the right to impose their own world view on others in a democracy which has formed its own set of laws. That should apply to Trump as well as XR.
And when direct action is taken that breaks those democratic principles it just fuels the right to push back like Trump.
Its self defeating and splits society further which ultimately achieves nothing. |
Murdoch seems to impose his world on others without any problem... | |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:22 - Sep 7 with 3132 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:12 - Sep 7 by jaseitfc2015 |
Well it was unnecessary and the receiver noticed it , so you could apologise.
I was just having a joke & don't think you should take this place so seriously & perceive it as a "snipe"
But your idea that capitalist needs to be brought down to bring about equality is wrong. We can have racial, gender, all types of equality within a capitalist if we have enough regulation, safe guards. Capitalism has done more the world over for people of colour than any other system ; look at the rise of countries in the americas, Africa, Asia. Sure there are issues with the system but from when capitalism arrived in latin América to now , the improvement is day and night. In colombia , in peru , in ecuador they disagree with you & I am more likely to listen to their view.
Anyway I'm going to jeb off , I've given you and your insults more than you deserve
Good evening |
Capitalism has done more for people of colour the world over than any other system? That's a rather historically illiterate view, mate.
We really can't have equality under capitalism. It's simply not built for it. And the nature of it means that those with money keep power and dictate how society is run, meaning the kind of radical - and I mean radical - curbs on its negative effects that would be needed to bring about something closer to equality simply won't ever happen. They don't benefit those with money and influence. Anti-racism is about more than not calling people the N word, it's about structural inequality, and capitalism has thus far proved itself to be woefully inadequate when it comes to tackling such inequalities. I don't blame BLM for being anti-capitalist on those grounds.
Edit - sorry for calling you a jeb. [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 20:05]
| |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:45 - Sep 7 with 3111 views | Darth_Koont |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:12 - Sep 7 by jaseitfc2015 |
Well it was unnecessary and the receiver noticed it , so you could apologise.
I was just having a joke & don't think you should take this place so seriously & perceive it as a "snipe"
But your idea that capitalist needs to be brought down to bring about equality is wrong. We can have racial, gender, all types of equality within a capitalist if we have enough regulation, safe guards. Capitalism has done more the world over for people of colour than any other system ; look at the rise of countries in the americas, Africa, Asia. Sure there are issues with the system but from when capitalism arrived in latin América to now , the improvement is day and night. In colombia , in peru , in ecuador they disagree with you & I am more likely to listen to their view.
Anyway I'm going to jeb off , I've given you and your insults more than you deserve
Good evening |
You're right about capitalism being a great equaliser in developing countries as they break down traditional power structures and provide massive opportunities to people who had very little before. It has a democratising effect in most cases as the economy grows.
But it's what happens to capitalism in developed countries that needs to be balanced out by more socialist tendencies e.g. equality and justice. And also that developed countries don't exploit those developing countries either. The same rules of capitalism don't increase the wealth and opportunities for everyone in developed countries, indeed they marginalise and exclude individuals, communities and regions unless the wealth is redistributed more equitably.
It's all about balance. And it's a balance we in the UK and US are increasingly getting wrong with massive and structural wealth inequality, and other countries in the developed world are getting right or at least managing a whole lot better.
I've had the same type of conversation with those who want to end capitalism completely not wanting to accept the strengths of it as a system. But I find even more people on the other side who are unwilling to see the strength of a socialist balance and how capitalism unchecked isn't the answer either.
I predict that within a generation (hopefully less) we'll be measuring the strength of an economy in terms of well-being and long-term sustainability instead of in pure GDP terms. That's where the more advanced countries are already heading and where we're going to lose ourselves if we don't start paying attention.
The cracks are already showing in our society given the low productivity and the massive regional/structural imbalances in the UK economy. That's seen people start to move in very different directions from Scottish independence to the Brexit-voting demographic that's been left behind and ignored for so long and to a middle-class that's pretty comfortable but now at odds with the rest.
So I'd like to hear how anyone defends our market-forces approach to the economy and society given where we are right now. It's pretty obvious by now that we need another approach that's a lot better for the people of the UK in real terms. |  |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 23:09 - Sep 7 with 3034 views | monytowbray |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:27 - Sep 7 by jaseitfc2015 |
You shouldn't really have a "main fix" you should watch / read from the myriad of different POV to make your judgment
You cant dismiss everything a conservative writer puts forward, equally a conservative writer shouldnt dismiss everything a left wing writer puts forward. I'm as likely to read Novara , watch the Young Turks , as I am to read the telegraph, or guardian. |
I follow Donald Trump and Boris Johnson on Twitter, I see their takes on everything too.
That’s usually how I know they’re talking sh1t. |  |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 11:32 - Sep 8 with 2942 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 13:08 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
You mentioned how much other countries are responsible for climate change in your reply to me yesterday too (sorry didn't get back to you then, game had started).
You don't seem to be aware of just how much a global corp the Murdoch's empire is, nor the extent of their reach. They're into N & S America, Australia & NZ obviously, Asia, Africa, other countries in Europe as well as the UK. Perfect outlets for them to have been pursuing their climate denying agenda, so perfect opportunity for ER to have addressed the very problems you are most concerned about!
This is from a decade ago, no doubt there are more recent articles out there, don't have time to look atm, maybe later -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14104349 |
Ryorry - I said I'd read the article!
I was aware that Murdoch News Corp had extensive links all round the world. But apart from the USA, of the list of the other top 5 most populating countries in the world - China, Russia, India and Japan....the only one that he seems to have any ownership of press is in India - where he has a 20% stake in Sky. So none of that would massively lead me to conclude that Murdoch is "surpressing the climate change debate" in those countries that are most polluting.
And the reason he doesn't need to (even if he does) is that those countries are totally up for suppressing the debate themselves. China is suppressing democracy and peoples rights in Hong Kong, potentially committing genocide and horrific sterilisation programmes on a chunk of its population. Whilst I think they realise they must contribute to the climate change issue and they have a long term programme to make more greener energy, I doubt strongly that they will accept that at the expense of their own economic growth and hence their building of coal powered electricity stations at a phenomenal rate to meet their ever growing demand.
Again, as I said in another post, I don't like Murdoch. Im not a conservative voter actually. I see myself as left of centre. But I heard someone on the radio say that on that Saturday the Sun were actually running an article written by David Attenborough talking about the climate. i just googled it and there appears to be an online version of it.
And actually what he said pretty much mirrors my own sentiment in these threads:
Peaceful Âprotest, he says, is the only way their voices will be heard. He warns against committing criminal acts, even in the name of a just cause, arguing: “I don’t think it is sensible politics to break the law.
“If you are any good at all, some of your demands will be met and then you will be demanding people abide by those new laws. You can’t have it both ways.”
Maybe the Sun etc don't run alot of stories about climate change because ultimately the people who read it are more interested in love island etc.
Anyway...I wasn't really trying to respark this...but I did read your link! Love and Peace again. |  |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:45 - Sep 8 with 2885 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:22 - Sep 7 by Herbivore |
Capitalism has done more for people of colour the world over than any other system? That's a rather historically illiterate view, mate.
We really can't have equality under capitalism. It's simply not built for it. And the nature of it means that those with money keep power and dictate how society is run, meaning the kind of radical - and I mean radical - curbs on its negative effects that would be needed to bring about something closer to equality simply won't ever happen. They don't benefit those with money and influence. Anti-racism is about more than not calling people the N word, it's about structural inequality, and capitalism has thus far proved itself to be woefully inadequate when it comes to tackling such inequalities. I don't blame BLM for being anti-capitalist on those grounds.
Edit - sorry for calling you a jeb. [Post edited 7 Sep 2020 20:05]
|
What system has done more ?
"Illiterate view" a view based on living in , working in developing countries vs yours likely formed from listening to James O'Brien, or Owen Jones
I dont need to be lecture by you about anti racism. I grew up around people of colour , my wife is a person of colour,, I've lived in different countries , I speak more than one language, all my life I have surrounded myself , made friends with and immersed myself in different culture, & most importantly I discuss and listen to views across those cultures. Actually talking to people of colour on a regular basis I find their views are less likely to be aligned with yours or James O'Briens & whoever book it is you waste your time reading & indeed are more aligned to mine. | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:05 - Sep 8 with 2875 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:45 - Sep 8 by jaseitfc2015 |
What system has done more ?
"Illiterate view" a view based on living in , working in developing countries vs yours likely formed from listening to James O'Brien, or Owen Jones
I dont need to be lecture by you about anti racism. I grew up around people of colour , my wife is a person of colour,, I've lived in different countries , I speak more than one language, all my life I have surrounded myself , made friends with and immersed myself in different culture, & most importantly I discuss and listen to views across those cultures. Actually talking to people of colour on a regular basis I find their views are less likely to be aligned with yours or James O'Briens & whoever book it is you waste your time reading & indeed are more aligned to mine. |
Cool story, bro. | |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:08 - Sep 8 with 2872 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:45 - Sep 8 by jaseitfc2015 |
What system has done more ?
"Illiterate view" a view based on living in , working in developing countries vs yours likely formed from listening to James O'Brien, or Owen Jones
I dont need to be lecture by you about anti racism. I grew up around people of colour , my wife is a person of colour,, I've lived in different countries , I speak more than one language, all my life I have surrounded myself , made friends with and immersed myself in different culture, & most importantly I discuss and listen to views across those cultures. Actually talking to people of colour on a regular basis I find their views are less likely to be aligned with yours or James O'Briens & whoever book it is you waste your time reading & indeed are more aligned to mine. |
Categorising humans into types, and assigning characteristics to those types, slavery, capitalism all started at the same time.
The stereotypical view of some humans as lazy, even goes back to slave traders.
The issue you have with meritocracy and capitalism, is that the people that benefit from those systems start to feel special and entitled, and believe they are deserving. People that don’t benefit are somehow un-deserving. That isn’t meant to be a general point about all people that benefit.
As an example, in 1800, the skills of Flynn Downes, would not be worth what they are today.
Flynn Downes does not have intrinsic value that makes him a more deserving individual.
Current society, today, values people that can kick balls of air about. So his value is a function of society, not separate.
If Boris Johnson was around with his particular skill set, arguing the toss with Socrates, nobody would have bothered to even to write his name down on class register.
Therefore I think it reasonable to take a longer view of things like, capitalism, slavery, racism, meritocracy and how people are valued today, and being analytical in how we may want society to be in future.
Maybe that is a the sort of thing Herbivore was alluding to when using the term historically illiterate.
Not saying that applies to you by any means.
But sometimes you need to go back and get to the root cause of issues, in order to think through what sort of society to we have and want, and what needs to change. | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:35 - Sep 8 with 2863 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:08 - Sep 8 by eireblue |
Categorising humans into types, and assigning characteristics to those types, slavery, capitalism all started at the same time.
The stereotypical view of some humans as lazy, even goes back to slave traders.
The issue you have with meritocracy and capitalism, is that the people that benefit from those systems start to feel special and entitled, and believe they are deserving. People that don’t benefit are somehow un-deserving. That isn’t meant to be a general point about all people that benefit.
As an example, in 1800, the skills of Flynn Downes, would not be worth what they are today.
Flynn Downes does not have intrinsic value that makes him a more deserving individual.
Current society, today, values people that can kick balls of air about. So his value is a function of society, not separate.
If Boris Johnson was around with his particular skill set, arguing the toss with Socrates, nobody would have bothered to even to write his name down on class register.
Therefore I think it reasonable to take a longer view of things like, capitalism, slavery, racism, meritocracy and how people are valued today, and being analytical in how we may want society to be in future.
Maybe that is a the sort of thing Herbivore was alluding to when using the term historically illiterate.
Not saying that applies to you by any means.
But sometimes you need to go back and get to the root cause of issues, in order to think through what sort of society to we have and want, and what needs to change. |
This. | |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 16:29 - Sep 8 with 2834 views | J2BLUE |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:08 - Sep 8 by eireblue |
Categorising humans into types, and assigning characteristics to those types, slavery, capitalism all started at the same time.
The stereotypical view of some humans as lazy, even goes back to slave traders.
The issue you have with meritocracy and capitalism, is that the people that benefit from those systems start to feel special and entitled, and believe they are deserving. People that don’t benefit are somehow un-deserving. That isn’t meant to be a general point about all people that benefit.
As an example, in 1800, the skills of Flynn Downes, would not be worth what they are today.
Flynn Downes does not have intrinsic value that makes him a more deserving individual.
Current society, today, values people that can kick balls of air about. So his value is a function of society, not separate.
If Boris Johnson was around with his particular skill set, arguing the toss with Socrates, nobody would have bothered to even to write his name down on class register.
Therefore I think it reasonable to take a longer view of things like, capitalism, slavery, racism, meritocracy and how people are valued today, and being analytical in how we may want society to be in future.
Maybe that is a the sort of thing Herbivore was alluding to when using the term historically illiterate.
Not saying that applies to you by any means.
But sometimes you need to go back and get to the root cause of issues, in order to think through what sort of society to we have and want, and what needs to change. |
Great post. |  |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... (n/t) on 18:19 - Sep 8 with 2800 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:05 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
Cool story, bro. |
[Post edited 1 May 2024 20:10]
| | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:21 - Sep 8 with 2798 views | jaseitfc2015 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 15:08 - Sep 8 by eireblue |
Categorising humans into types, and assigning characteristics to those types, slavery, capitalism all started at the same time.
The stereotypical view of some humans as lazy, even goes back to slave traders.
The issue you have with meritocracy and capitalism, is that the people that benefit from those systems start to feel special and entitled, and believe they are deserving. People that don’t benefit are somehow un-deserving. That isn’t meant to be a general point about all people that benefit.
As an example, in 1800, the skills of Flynn Downes, would not be worth what they are today.
Flynn Downes does not have intrinsic value that makes him a more deserving individual.
Current society, today, values people that can kick balls of air about. So his value is a function of society, not separate.
If Boris Johnson was around with his particular skill set, arguing the toss with Socrates, nobody would have bothered to even to write his name down on class register.
Therefore I think it reasonable to take a longer view of things like, capitalism, slavery, racism, meritocracy and how people are valued today, and being analytical in how we may want society to be in future.
Maybe that is a the sort of thing Herbivore was alluding to when using the term historically illiterate.
Not saying that applies to you by any means.
But sometimes you need to go back and get to the root cause of issues, in order to think through what sort of society to we have and want, and what needs to change. |
Nothing you said there is in contradiction to what I've said. But again what system has done more than capitalism in modern history? | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:27 - Sep 8 with 2788 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... (n/t) on 18:19 - Sep 8 by jaseitfc2015 |
[Post edited 1 May 2024 20:10]
|
Ha ha! Good for you, champ. | |
| |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:40 - Sep 8 with 2777 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:21 - Sep 8 by jaseitfc2015 |
Nothing you said there is in contradiction to what I've said. But again what system has done more than capitalism in modern history? |
Just because something worked, for someone people, doesn’t mean it should continue to be used for all people.
Exploitative empires worked for some people, for quite a lot of human history.
Doesn’t mean empires should have continued.
When anthropologists study what is a common set of ethics that humans seem to share, there are patterns across all humans. That includes when studies include tribal people that are not really part of the modern world.
So there is a core set of common ethics that seem to be innate in humans, and that will be something that has evolved, and been part of what has made humans successful so far.
You can find articles discussing how these principles almost boil down to simple things like co-operation between humans as a fundamental principle.
I would suggest not doing things just because they have been used, that is not evolutionary..
Coming back to the context of the OP, mammals emerged from one of the earths extinction events.
A human capitalistic society, which is only a few hundred years old, in its current form, is seeming heading for another extinction event, on the only planet humans can live on currently.
I think it is worth having a think about it.
A bit like football, just because 442 worked for some people some of the times, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t move on. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
