| Sweden off the quarantine list 18:30 - Sep 10 with 3625 views | Trequartista |
Their infection rates must be dropping whilst ours increase. Can we learn anything from them? |  |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 22:37 - Sep 10 with 1124 views | ElderGrizzly |
Yes, don’t copy them and look at their neighbours instead
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 23:02 - Sep 10 with 1111 views | vapour_trail |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 22:33 - Sep 10 by reusersfreekicks |
Oh come on. The winner takes it all |
Get out. |  |
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| Something a bit suspicious on 00:38 - Sep 11 with 1094 views | Trequartista |
| Something a bit suspicious on 19:37 - Sep 10 by Guthrum |
I'm just crunching some numbers as part of my reply to you, when I noticed an interesting thing. On 4th July, Sweden's new cases per 100,000 population figure very suddenly drops from a level of approximately 6 to 15 (average 9.20 1st June to 3rd July) down to between 3.5 and under one thereafter (average 2.32 out to 9th Sep) - with a few minor outliers in either case.
What happened on that date? Was there a change in the way the Swedes classified infections, or maybe a cut in the number of tests? Rather suggests it's an accounting thing, not a quite literally overnight improvement in actual infection rates. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 19:41]
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No idea. All it does is underline how difficult it is to make any comparisons from one country to another with so many caveats. | |
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| Yes, we can.... on 00:48 - Sep 11 with 1093 views | Trequartista |
| Yes, we can.... on 20:43 - Sep 10 by Dyland |
What are the differences between Sweden and the UK?
I'd love to see you factor these in to whatever figures you're looking at...?
P.S. I agree with the general sentiment you make, though why you think anyone is ignoring evidence globally is beyond me. |
Well it appears to me that now we've chosen the initial lockdown and mask route, that any dissent towards that is met with cries of covidiot etc. This route we have chosen may well be saving more lives, who knows, i think we should keep an open mind about a country where they haven't seriously damaged their economy with a lockdown and their chief scientific advisor thinks masks are pointless. He is an epidemiologist after all, he's not David Icke. | |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 00:55 - Sep 11 with 1086 views | Trequartista |
This is it though, there are so many caveats that anyone can find one that suits one side or the other. In this thread alone we have higher amount of Swedes living alone, higher amount of older Swedes, i could add high percentage of Swedes living in the main urban areas, comparisons with UK, comparisons with Scandanavian neighbours, it's just so difficult to know which path we should be going / should have gone down | |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 00:58 - Sep 11 with 1085 views | Trequartista |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 20:28 - Sep 10 by Swansea_Blue |
If it helps, the general consensus by people who know about thse things is that Sweden have done pretty sh*t. I'm not sure it's a benchmark we should be aspiring to.
They may not have had a government enforced lock down, but people locked themselves down by and large, so the economic hit was as bad as Nordic neighbours who did have official lockdowns. Whilst their covid-19 rates are higher than their Nordic neighbours.
So yes, in short there is a lesson. Don't be like Sweden.
Granted, there is an argument that we'd be better off acting like Sweden, but that's because everyone else looks better when you're near the bottom of the pile. Aspiring for Sweden's outcomes would be like wanting Jewell back now because PRP is worse. |
I generally prefer to question things rather than follow general consensus, and if this pandemic has proven anything it's that "people who know about these things" is a very small subset. | |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 01:08 - Sep 11 with 1084 views | Trequartista |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 22:37 - Sep 10 by ElderGrizzly |
Yes, don’t copy them and look at their neighbours instead
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That graph does look stark at first it has to be said, but geography is only one of many ways to compare and not necessarily the best comparison. It also has to be noted that those other Scandanavian countries did not wear masks either until a long time after the vast majority of the Swedish deaths (July / August) so there is some evidence their that the lockdown saved lives but not the masks. | |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 01:09 - Sep 11 with 1085 views | Trequartista |
What a much less toxic board it is now compared to the last time i spoke about this topic. Thank you. | |
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| Yes, we can.... on 08:29 - Sep 11 with 1050 views | Herbivore |
| Yes, we can.... on 00:48 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
Well it appears to me that now we've chosen the initial lockdown and mask route, that any dissent towards that is met with cries of covidiot etc. This route we have chosen may well be saving more lives, who knows, i think we should keep an open mind about a country where they haven't seriously damaged their economy with a lockdown and their chief scientific advisor thinks masks are pointless. He is an epidemiologist after all, he's not David Icke. |
Sweden's economy still took a big hit. It was lower than the EU average and only a little bit lower than Germany, who have managed to keep deaths at a far lower level. I'm not sure the small economic benefit outweighs the fact that, by most measures, Sweden hasn't handled it well. Their death rate is comparatively high. As someone else said, just because we have handled it disastrously doesn't mean we should aspire to be like a country that has also not done a great job of keeping cases and deaths down overall.
I am curious, if you are generally neutral on this issue why is it that you only ever start threads about the Swedish approach? I'm not sure why this would be considered as a favourable approach unless you are someone who doesn't like wearing a mask and wants to be able to go about business more or less as usual. In which case, that doesn't make you neutral.
Someone who was generally neutral might want to also look at, say, New Zealand and how their approach has contrasted to ours. They locked down relatively early in terms of the progress of the virus there and they were strict. They imposed very heavy restrictions on international travel and enforced quarantine at an early stage. They have enforced the wearing of masks. The measures they introduced and the timing of them meant they got down to effectively zero Covid and the country largely went back to normal with people attending sporting events and being able to hug family members. Wonderful stuff. The low levels of Covid since have enabled effective monitoring, which led to a temporary local reintroduction of lockdown measures. Since easing them, cases continue to be in low single digits per day.
Our approach in the round has been closer to the Swedish model. Our lockdown was not strictly enforced, masks weren't mandatory during lockdown either, and international travel continued with quarantine measures coming very, very late. If you are genuinely interested in how we could have handled this more effectively, might it not be better to look at a country like New Zealand that has done incredibly well rather than looking at Sweden that hasn't? I get that New Zealand has lower population density and the like but the so does Sweden. And if I were neutral and wanting to really think about a different way we could have approached this that would have been much more effective, I think I'd look at how New Zealand has handled it rather than Sweden.
Edit - here's a comparison between the two for balance: https://georank.org/covid/new-zealand/sweden [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 9:17]
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| Yes, we can.... on 08:45 - Sep 11 with 1037 views | solomon |
| Yes, we can.... on 19:01 - Sep 10 by gordon |
Add a far stronger social safety net and a much healthier population, definitely lots to learn from the Scandinavians.
I'd choose the Norwegian death rate though, if I had to choose. |
they can keep their suicide rates though. |  | | |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 09:04 - Sep 11 with 1020 views | gordon |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 01:08 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
That graph does look stark at first it has to be said, but geography is only one of many ways to compare and not necessarily the best comparison. It also has to be noted that those other Scandanavian countries did not wear masks either until a long time after the vast majority of the Swedish deaths (July / August) so there is some evidence their that the lockdown saved lives but not the masks. |
A nuetral approach would be to look at the countries that have performed best and see what it is that they did and how. Of course each country is different, but a standard data science approach would be to look across a group of e.g. the top 10 performing countries and seeing what relevant factors they all had in common.
Picking a sample of 1 of the poorer performing countries (by any reasonable metric) and trying to justify why it's performance should actually be considered a success by pointing to all sorts of mitigating factors just isn't an impartial, scientific approach.
[Post edited 11 Sep 2020 9:28]
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 09:08 - Sep 11 with 1011 views | Herbivore |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 01:08 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
That graph does look stark at first it has to be said, but geography is only one of many ways to compare and not necessarily the best comparison. It also has to be noted that those other Scandanavian countries did not wear masks either until a long time after the vast majority of the Swedish deaths (July / August) so there is some evidence their that the lockdown saved lives but not the masks. |
There is, however, a good amount of scientific evidence that masks help to stop the spread of the virus. I am not sure why someone neutral would want to ignore the science and instead make rather tenuous inferences from other data. | |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 09:14 - Sep 11 with 1008 views | jeera |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 09:08 - Sep 11 by Herbivore |
There is, however, a good amount of scientific evidence that masks help to stop the spread of the virus. I am not sure why someone neutral would want to ignore the science and instead make rather tenuous inferences from other data. |
I've never understood anyone dismissing the purpose of covering one's mouth to help stop giving anything to other people.
Do they not bother to cover themselves at the dinner table if they sneeze or cough?
I mean, people love having snot and spittle all over their food don't they.
The purpose is so obvious it shouldn't need repeating time and again. |  |
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| What Herbers said on 09:30 - Sep 11 with 999 views | Dyland |
| Yes, we can.... on 00:48 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
Well it appears to me that now we've chosen the initial lockdown and mask route, that any dissent towards that is met with cries of covidiot etc. This route we have chosen may well be saving more lives, who knows, i think we should keep an open mind about a country where they haven't seriously damaged their economy with a lockdown and their chief scientific advisor thinks masks are pointless. He is an epidemiologist after all, he's not David Icke. |
nft |  |
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| Something a bit suspicious on 09:56 - Sep 11 with 989 views | Guthrum |
| Something a bit suspicious on 00:38 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
No idea. All it does is underline how difficult it is to make any comparisons from one country to another with so many caveats. |
Indeed, a bit of a minefield.
Part of the problem (as I've mentioned before) is that this pandemic is also the centre of an information war - driven by ideology, finance/investment, vote chasing and sheer desperation, as well as medical considerations. Even different branches of "the science" are at cross-purposes, with epidemiology, psychology and sociology not necessarily pulling in the same direction (quite apart from varying analysis of the still-being-collected data). |  |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 10:50 - Sep 11 with 975 views | LankHenners |
| Sweden off the quarantine list on 01:09 - Sep 11 by Trequartista |
What a much less toxic board it is now compared to the last time i spoke about this topic. Thank you. |
That was because you said masks were 'muzzles' and made an incredibly simplified argument very obviously claiming that not locking down was better than basic safety measures, aligning yourself with a lot of cranks and conspiracy theorists, then started crying and eventually flounced off when several people pulled you up on it. |  |
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| Sweden off the quarantine list on 18:21 - Sep 17 with 803 views | AYACCA |
I live in sweden. life here seems to have carried on as normal throughout.
we're supposed to wear masks at work but no one takes notice. i still gym and shop as normal. cases really low in my area now. I think more people have been exposed to it than we know of but every year people get colds and flu here, especially kids in winter so maybe the immune systems here just deal with it. Maybe the Herd immunity thing is working, or, as per my observation swedes are mostly in good shape. especially the women. |  | | |
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