| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned 12:35 - Sep 28 with 7167 views | pointofblue |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54322650
The bit that gets me is the finger pointing at Government policy and saying the Government should step in to save the game. Whilst I think the current mob are incompetent and, in a way, dangerous, I do not see why they should look to procure loans or throw taxpayers money at a sport which is generating billions of pounds a year in revenue and is pleading poverty at the same time as spending millions of pounds in transfer fees and salaries. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:20 - Sep 28 with 1094 views | jayessess |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:08 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
That's pretty much the same as saying Waitrose should bail out the local corner shop as there is lots of money in the food retail sector.
Something needs to be done and the Premier League are a bunch of greedy gits but they have a point.
What they seem to be missing is that it's in their best interests to have a fully functioning football pyramid below them for a number of reasons.
SB |
I think a lot of the available evidence suggests the Premier League doesn't see the fully functioning football pyramid as having anything to do with their best interests. They re-wrote the rules so they could hoover up academy players from down the leagues and so their U23 teams could enter the EFL Trophy. They also introduced massive parachute payments to try and make the 2nd tier as uncompetitive as possible, in the process creating a load of perverse incentives for any ambitious medium size club in that division.
Most of the people running PL clubs would just shrug their shoulders if half the clubs in Leagues One and Two collapsed. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:21 - Sep 28 with 1090 views | pointofblue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:18 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
Spose so, but don;t they have reserve leagues already? (My footballing ignorance might be showing!) |
Yes but there will be a hole to fill with the EFL clubs going bust.
Alternatively we could become feeder clubs to the Premier League teams, so Colchester and Southend, for example, might end up with squads filled with youngsters from Fulham and West Ham, with them having first dibs, for a nominal fee, on any of Colchester’s /Southend’s players. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:22 - Sep 28 with 1088 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:20 - Sep 28 by jayessess |
I think a lot of the available evidence suggests the Premier League doesn't see the fully functioning football pyramid as having anything to do with their best interests. They re-wrote the rules so they could hoover up academy players from down the leagues and so their U23 teams could enter the EFL Trophy. They also introduced massive parachute payments to try and make the 2nd tier as uncompetitive as possible, in the process creating a load of perverse incentives for any ambitious medium size club in that division.
Most of the people running PL clubs would just shrug their shoulders if half the clubs in Leagues One and Two collapsed. |
This.... |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:22 - Sep 28 with 1089 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:03 - Sep 28 by pointofblue |
Though it’s a juggling act - if players don’t take a cut then the club may go into administration or liquidation; if the latter then they’d be out of a job anyway. |
There is not a lot more cutting the bottom half of L1 and below can really do. A lot of people perhaps see all this through the prism of ITFC, the Championship and the PL but the clubs that are in the gravest danger won't be paying many, if any wages over £1k a week. | | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:24 - Sep 28 with 1076 views | Durovigutum |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:08 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
That's pretty much the same as saying Waitrose should bail out the local corner shop as there is lots of money in the food retail sector.
Something needs to be done and the Premier League are a bunch of greedy gits but they have a point.
What they seem to be missing is that it's in their best interests to have a fully functioning football pyramid below them for a number of reasons.
SB |
Surely that analogy only works if the corner shop owner is paying himself £130,000 a week?
The players have to realise that they take a pay cut or don't get paid because the club has gone bust.
The cynic in me suggests some won't understand what 50% of nothing is, and the agent who is meant to help them won't care. |  | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:28 - Sep 28 with 1069 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 12:48 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
You love to blame the players here, but if clubs have no revenue what do you expect these players to do when they have a short career as it is? |
I expect players to take a pay cut where possible.
Especially in the Premier League or Championship.
When clubs are bleeding through their eyes, it's sensible for players (the main cost by far) to take a pay cut. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:29 - Sep 28 with 1067 views | pointofblue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:22 - Sep 28 by tractorboy1978 |
There is not a lot more cutting the bottom half of L1 and below can really do. A lot of people perhaps see all this through the prism of ITFC, the Championship and the PL but the clubs that are in the gravest danger won't be paying many, if any wages over £1k a week. |
That is true - but they are sustainable as long as they have a steady income which they would have budgeted for. Now that income isn’t in place should it be the rich clubs at the top of the pyramid or the government which supports them... or should they be allowed to go bust? | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:29 - Sep 28 with 1066 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:03 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
Problem with the "short career" argument - players are entirely capable of getting another job after they retire from the game. It is not necessary that they should fund themselves for life from their football income.
Tho it is also true that the majority of them aren't earning anywhere near enough to do that, more than to give themselves a nice nest-egg (if they save wisely).
Perhaps the future will see semi-professional players with day- or summer jobs as far up the pyramid as League One, or higher. |
Indeed.
In many cases it's the start of a career. There is no reason they should expect to not work after their football career, and I'm sure most don't. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:31 - Sep 28 with 1063 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:07 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
I'm not saying it's the biggest issue re short career, but currently some on here are asking those to take the burden when it will effectively end their career - if in an industry everyone knew their job was safe at the other side then there would be more willing participants in the scheme.
Thats' not the case here, and the people being asked to make the sacrifice are killing themselves |
Short term pain for long term gain.
The only thing that will bankrupt clubs is players wages. Nothing else will. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:32 - Sep 28 with 1061 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 12:53 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
Then it in the players interests to make sure the clubs survive as businesses, just like many other workers in other industires have taken pay cuts over the years. |
This. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:32 - Sep 28 with 1063 views | StokieBlue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:12 - Sep 28 by pointofblue |
As said above, I don’t think it is the same. Firstly because the supermarkets are in direct competition with the local shops whilst, in truth, the Premier League sides are not direct competition with the EFL due to the disparity; secondly a simple redistribution of television money would sort this out very quickly - especially if the players at the top of the food chain would agree to a sustainable wage. Wasn’t it said that Gareth Bale’s wage for a week/month would cover Covid tests for the entire EFL this season? |
It's almost exactly the same if you remove the emotional component.
It's debatable if the Supermarkets are in competition with local shops. In fact it's very similar to football, there is a huge disparity between doing the monthly shop and picking up some bread from the local shop. In this scenario should the supermarkets be bailing out local shops because they fall on hard times?
TV money is allocated by what people want to watch. I doubt the Chinese are willing to pay a lot to watch Ipswich vs Rochdale.
None of this means I don't agree that something needs to be done, something definitely does need to be done as the money at the top is out of control. All I am saying is that if you remove the emotional component it's still an industry like any other and thus it's hard to legislate against the PL without them citing other industries which aren't legislated against.
It's a rubbish situation and it was always going to come to a head, C19 has just accelerated that process.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:33 - Sep 28 with 1056 views | StokieBlue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:24 - Sep 28 by Durovigutum |
Surely that analogy only works if the corner shop owner is paying himself £130,000 a week?
The players have to realise that they take a pay cut or don't get paid because the club has gone bust.
The cynic in me suggests some won't understand what 50% of nothing is, and the agent who is meant to help them won't care. |
You've got the analogy the wrong way round unless you think lower league clubs are paying players 130k a week.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:34 - Sep 28 with 1057 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:03 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
Problem with the "short career" argument - players are entirely capable of getting another job after they retire from the game. It is not necessary that they should fund themselves for life from their football income.
Tho it is also true that the majority of them aren't earning anywhere near enough to do that, more than to give themselves a nice nest-egg (if they save wisely).
Perhaps the future will see semi-professional players with day- or summer jobs as far up the pyramid as League One, or higher. |
The short term argument doesn't wash with me
What I'd give to be a Premier League player for a month ,picking up £200k per week with endorsements and bonuses
Give me a month of that and I'd gladly retire for LIFE
Pure greed whilst the game eats itself
Some would say it's not their fault what they're paid , no it's not BUT I'd suggest they have a massive hand in saving the sport as we know it | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:36 - Sep 28 with 1050 views | homer_123 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:29 - Sep 28 by pointofblue |
That is true - but they are sustainable as long as they have a steady income which they would have budgeted for. Now that income isn’t in place should it be the rich clubs at the top of the pyramid or the government which supports them... or should they be allowed to go bust? |
The Government have already helped Clubs through the introduction and continuation of the furlough scheme.
So:
1. How long should businesses expect the Government to provide assistance?
2. Should the footballing 'industry' look inward to support the wider game, given the amount of money and importance it plays?
I'm no fan of this current Government but in regards to the furlough scheme (it's far from perfect) that was way, way, way more than I thought we'd ever see. The issue with it is related to my point below:
How many businesses (including football Clubs) have spent the last six months actively looking and planning for a situation where things don't return to normal? Looking at cost savings or additional/ different revenue schemes? Or even talking to its customers/ fan base to assess what things might look like going forward?
It feels to me that pretty much everyone has worked on the premise that things will return to normal. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:39 - Sep 28 with 1057 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:31 - Sep 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Short term pain for long term gain.
The only thing that will bankrupt clubs is players wages. Nothing else will. |
Nonsense.
Clubs could/will have all sorts of liabilities - PAYE, VAT, repayments on any external loans, portions of transfer fees etc. | | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:42 - Sep 28 with 1040 views | hype313 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:15 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
Its not really stokie - Waitrose don't rely on corner shops for anything and only compete with them. That can't be said of prem clubs / lower league clubs.
I spose the question is, if loads of lower league clubs went bust, how badly would that affect prem clubs? The FA cup and league cup would be dead (although that might suit some) and there'd be no where for the prem to loan out their players or blud yongsters. I reckon they'd feel that eventually, plus who knows how prem club fans would react to such a situation... |
The top 6 PL clubs have all been itching for a European super league for years to essentially ring fence themselves, they have no care for the rest of the PL, let alone League one and two clubs. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:42 - Sep 28 with 1054 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:39 - Sep 28 by tractorboy1978 |
Nonsense.
Clubs could/will have all sorts of liabilities - PAYE, VAT, repayments on any external loans, portions of transfer fees etc. |
You really don't think players wages are the largest expense??
There's a reason FFP tried to cap wages at 70% of turnover!!
In the Prem I think it's at about 80% of T/O.
But unquestionably, players wages is by far a clubs biggest liability. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:49 - Sep 28 with 1025 views | homer_123 |
'It is not about big versus small. Or it shouldn't be. It is about us all being in this together. It is about what Spurs fans did last week when they started buying up Leyton Orient merchandise as a gesture of solidarity after Orient lost £150,000 in TV money when the clubs' Carabao Cup tie was lost to coronavirus.'
I hadn't spotted that Spurs fans did that. Nice. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:50 - Sep 28 with 1025 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:42 - Sep 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
You really don't think players wages are the largest expense??
There's a reason FFP tried to cap wages at 70% of turnover!!
In the Prem I think it's at about 80% of T/O.
But unquestionably, players wages is by far a clubs biggest liability. |
You said 'the only thing that will bankrupt them'. That is absolutely wrong.
How do you know what other liabilities clubs have sitting on their balance sheets? Neither Bury or Macclesfield went under because their wages were too high. | | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:51 - Sep 28 with 1023 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:36 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
The Government have already helped Clubs through the introduction and continuation of the furlough scheme.
So:
1. How long should businesses expect the Government to provide assistance?
2. Should the footballing 'industry' look inward to support the wider game, given the amount of money and importance it plays?
I'm no fan of this current Government but in regards to the furlough scheme (it's far from perfect) that was way, way, way more than I thought we'd ever see. The issue with it is related to my point below:
How many businesses (including football Clubs) have spent the last six months actively looking and planning for a situation where things don't return to normal? Looking at cost savings or additional/ different revenue schemes? Or even talking to its customers/ fan base to assess what things might look like going forward?
It feels to me that pretty much everyone has worked on the premise that things will return to normal. |
From the Colchester chairman:
I provided him with a link, which you can read by clicking here, which is to an article I wrote for our supporters detailing the changes we have made for their safe return. These include changes to:
1. Our ticketing system which we have had to completely revamp.
2. Our seating areas where we have removed 1800 seats just so that we can ensure no fan has to even brush past another unless they are in the same support bubble.
3. The areas that surround our stadium to provide additional space and ensure attendees can move around the stadium whilst complying with the social distancing requirements.
The main reason for that letter to Will Quince was to request that the alcohol restrictions are lifted whilst we are only allowing home supporters into our stadium because we could see how that would increase safety even further.
Therefore, I’m sure you can imagine how devastated I was yesterday to hear that you have taken a broad brush approach which has rendered all of that work in vain and has stopped us from doing the one fundamental thing that all businesses need to do and that is trade.
From Evans
That’s the question though, when will supporters be back? What are your thoughts?
Look, our primary concern obviously is the health and safety of all who come into the stadium. It has to be a safe environment but the staff at the Club had worked very hard to implement all the measures needed to make Portman Road exactly that, a safe place to watch football in these testing times. I am assured that the safety authorities were very impressed with what we put in front of them. That was clearly the case as they gave us the go-ahead to apply to hold a test event for Saturday’s game against Rochdale and were also happy for us to increase the numbers of supporters in attendance as we proceeded in line with Covid-secure guidelines. We are not alone. I think there will be many football clubs who have some of the most developed and controlled Covid-secure measures in place and are ready to go.
How can they adapt? They are doing so in line with the authorities - i.e. the Stadium Advisory Group - but now being told doesn't matter, you can't trade anyway |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:51 - Sep 28 with 1019 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:24 - Sep 28 by Durovigutum |
Surely that analogy only works if the corner shop owner is paying himself £130,000 a week?
The players have to realise that they take a pay cut or don't get paid because the club has gone bust.
The cynic in me suggests some won't understand what 50% of nothing is, and the agent who is meant to help them won't care. |
The clubs that pay £130k a week aren't those who are in trouble | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:52 - Sep 28 with 1017 views | jayessess |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:36 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
The Government have already helped Clubs through the introduction and continuation of the furlough scheme.
So:
1. How long should businesses expect the Government to provide assistance?
2. Should the footballing 'industry' look inward to support the wider game, given the amount of money and importance it plays?
I'm no fan of this current Government but in regards to the furlough scheme (it's far from perfect) that was way, way, way more than I thought we'd ever see. The issue with it is related to my point below:
How many businesses (including football Clubs) have spent the last six months actively looking and planning for a situation where things don't return to normal? Looking at cost savings or additional/ different revenue schemes? Or even talking to its customers/ fan base to assess what things might look like going forward?
It feels to me that pretty much everyone has worked on the premise that things will return to normal. |
Isn't part of the reason that expectation exists down to the Government? Much of the communication this Summer was precisely about getting people to go back to consuming and working normally. When the Government is telling you that not only is it safe to go to all sorts of *indoor* businesses, but that actually it was your patriotic duty to do so, it's not wholly unreasonable for football clubs to anticipate that outdoor mass spectator sport might be back sooner rather later. Particularly when you've got competitive pressure to believe the Government.
One of the features of the pandemic response has been the absolute refusal on the part of the Government to actually engage in serious sector by sector planning on what to do over the medium term. That's been a massive part of what we're currently seeing with outbreaks in student accommodation and likewise with the Summer of wishful thinking in Lower League football. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 13:58]
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:57 - Sep 28 with 1011 views | homer_123 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:51 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
From the Colchester chairman:
I provided him with a link, which you can read by clicking here, which is to an article I wrote for our supporters detailing the changes we have made for their safe return. These include changes to:
1. Our ticketing system which we have had to completely revamp.
2. Our seating areas where we have removed 1800 seats just so that we can ensure no fan has to even brush past another unless they are in the same support bubble.
3. The areas that surround our stadium to provide additional space and ensure attendees can move around the stadium whilst complying with the social distancing requirements.
The main reason for that letter to Will Quince was to request that the alcohol restrictions are lifted whilst we are only allowing home supporters into our stadium because we could see how that would increase safety even further.
Therefore, I’m sure you can imagine how devastated I was yesterday to hear that you have taken a broad brush approach which has rendered all of that work in vain and has stopped us from doing the one fundamental thing that all businesses need to do and that is trade.
From Evans
That’s the question though, when will supporters be back? What are your thoughts?
Look, our primary concern obviously is the health and safety of all who come into the stadium. It has to be a safe environment but the staff at the Club had worked very hard to implement all the measures needed to make Portman Road exactly that, a safe place to watch football in these testing times. I am assured that the safety authorities were very impressed with what we put in front of them. That was clearly the case as they gave us the go-ahead to apply to hold a test event for Saturday’s game against Rochdale and were also happy for us to increase the numbers of supporters in attendance as we proceeded in line with Covid-secure guidelines. We are not alone. I think there will be many football clubs who have some of the most developed and controlled Covid-secure measures in place and are ready to go.
How can they adapt? They are doing so in line with the authorities - i.e. the Stadium Advisory Group - but now being told doesn't matter, you can't trade anyway |
I think I've posted before to you on this.
Get 1,000 fans back into a Club is actually going to cost Clubs money both in the short term and long term.
Those 1,000 fans going back are going to be Season Ticket holders in the main and therefore provide little to no extra income - it's short sighted to even try and make changes to accommodate that (from purely a business sense).
Those changes are not adapting to the wider, longer term issues that Covid is bringing.
The wider question Clubs need to (sadly) wrestle with is - what if fans can't go back in numbers for the foreseeable future (or ever - I doubt this to be the case by the way).
How does football need to adapt to that.
Finally, from a purely personal perspective, it's a touch much to go spending the kind of money Clubs have on transfers and then go to the Government seeking a bail out. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:59 - Sep 28 with 1001 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:50 - Sep 28 by tractorboy1978 |
You said 'the only thing that will bankrupt them'. That is absolutely wrong.
How do you know what other liabilities clubs have sitting on their balance sheets? Neither Bury or Macclesfield went under because their wages were too high. |
Any clubs biggest operational cost is wages.
That's what leads to all the financial woes.
Wages are THE major structural issue that was bringing football clubs to their knees pre Covid. | |
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