| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned 12:35 - Sep 28 with 7170 views | pointofblue |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54322650
The bit that gets me is the finger pointing at Government policy and saying the Government should step in to save the game. Whilst I think the current mob are incompetent and, in a way, dangerous, I do not see why they should look to procure loans or throw taxpayers money at a sport which is generating billions of pounds a year in revenue and is pleading poverty at the same time as spending millions of pounds in transfer fees and salaries. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:00 - Sep 28 with 2078 views | homer_123 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:51 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
The clubs that pay £130k a week aren't those who are in trouble |
Yet, are they not the same Clubs that have gone to Government seeking financial assistance? |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:02 - Sep 28 with 2074 views | hype313 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:57 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
I think I've posted before to you on this.
Get 1,000 fans back into a Club is actually going to cost Clubs money both in the short term and long term.
Those 1,000 fans going back are going to be Season Ticket holders in the main and therefore provide little to no extra income - it's short sighted to even try and make changes to accommodate that (from purely a business sense).
Those changes are not adapting to the wider, longer term issues that Covid is bringing.
The wider question Clubs need to (sadly) wrestle with is - what if fans can't go back in numbers for the foreseeable future (or ever - I doubt this to be the case by the way).
How does football need to adapt to that.
Finally, from a purely personal perspective, it's a touch much to go spending the kind of money Clubs have on transfers and then go to the Government seeking a bail out. |
Looking at you Daniel Levy.
I agree though, this 1k allowance is futile really in the grand scheme of things, I very much doubt we will see fans back in volume until Sept 2021 at the very least (Unless this thing just randomly disappears)
Clubs are going to have to ask some tough questions across all sections of society.
The other thing to add is that we are only at the tip of the iceberg for mass unemployment, what do people do when they lose their jobs? Cancel Sky, so as much as the big boys are ok for the time being, it will start to hit them too. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:09 - Sep 28 with 2064 views | jayessess |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:57 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
I think I've posted before to you on this.
Get 1,000 fans back into a Club is actually going to cost Clubs money both in the short term and long term.
Those 1,000 fans going back are going to be Season Ticket holders in the main and therefore provide little to no extra income - it's short sighted to even try and make changes to accommodate that (from purely a business sense).
Those changes are not adapting to the wider, longer term issues that Covid is bringing.
The wider question Clubs need to (sadly) wrestle with is - what if fans can't go back in numbers for the foreseeable future (or ever - I doubt this to be the case by the way).
How does football need to adapt to that.
Finally, from a purely personal perspective, it's a touch much to go spending the kind of money Clubs have on transfers and then go to the Government seeking a bail out. |
I think you could say the same for a lot of the businesses the Government has propped up over the past 6 months. Primark's revenues (and profits) were greater than all the Premier League clubs combined last year, but they're still getting furlough money.
The thing with the kind of Government spending aimed at keeping a private business viable until conditions improve is that it's difficult to do it in a way that doesn't ultimately benefit some people who should be able to look after themselves. All you can do is work out whether the money is going to ultimately have a economic or social benefit.
They gave restaurants £0.5bn to stimulate demand in a sector with lots of small, precarious businesses, with the hope of generating knock on effects in the rest of the economy.
They've bailed out the arts sector to preserve cultural capital that in the longer term is important both to tourism, specific local economies and cultural life in Britain more generally.
The question is if you could justify the same for lower league football and on what terms. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 14:10]
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:11 - Sep 28 with 2060 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:59 - Sep 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Any clubs biggest operational cost is wages.
That's what leads to all the financial woes.
Wages are THE major structural issue that was bringing football clubs to their knees pre Covid. |
Not massively at L1/L2 level - we already had SCMP in place which capped what clubs could spend.
Cash flow is an entirely different thing anyway - and lack of cash is what kills businesses. Wages are one of a number of things. If a club can't afford to pay the £150k transfer installment they owe or cannot afford to pay their VAT at the end of the quarter that has nothing to do with what they are paying in wages. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 14:13]
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:16 - Sep 28 with 2048 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:11 - Sep 28 by tractorboy1978 |
Not massively at L1/L2 level - we already had SCMP in place which capped what clubs could spend.
Cash flow is an entirely different thing anyway - and lack of cash is what kills businesses. Wages are one of a number of things. If a club can't afford to pay the £150k transfer installment they owe or cannot afford to pay their VAT at the end of the quarter that has nothing to do with what they are paying in wages. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 14:13]
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It has in most cases everything to do with what wages they are paying
The biggest commodity/cost whatever you want to call it in ANY business is labour
Football is no different
If labour costs of too big then other things have to go without
Granted in L1/L2 not to the same extent but wages are paramount to the problems |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:25 - Sep 28 with 2030 views | BtreeBlueBlood |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:34 - Sep 28 by Metal_Hacker |
The short term argument doesn't wash with me
What I'd give to be a Premier League player for a month ,picking up £200k per week with endorsements and bonuses
Give me a month of that and I'd gladly retire for LIFE
Pure greed whilst the game eats itself
Some would say it's not their fault what they're paid , no it's not BUT I'd suggest they have a massive hand in saving the sport as we know it |
You would only have £600k in your pocket after tax!
Go for 2 months!🤣 |  | | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:28 - Sep 28 with 2026 views | Metal_Hacker |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:25 - Sep 28 by BtreeBlueBlood |
You would only have £600k in your pocket after tax!
Go for 2 months!🤣 |
Overtime !! | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:29 - Sep 28 with 2024 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:26 - Sep 28 by tractorboy1978 |
You honestly think the ONLY thing that can put club's out of business is salary costs?
The lack of cash is being caused by STs not being renewed, not being able to get fans through the gate or any other match day revenue. Clubs can trim wages, they can defer wages but that's irrelevant if they have other liabilities they are contracted to/legally obligated to pay. It's generally HMRC that issue a winding up order not players that are owed wages. |
I'm talking about the structural issues that exist in football pre-covid, and have left football so exposed.
Of course Covid is the main issue at present, but the reason clubs have failed in the past can be traced back to wages.
Happy to agree to differ.
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:30 - Sep 28 with 2025 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 13:57 - Sep 28 by homer_123 |
I think I've posted before to you on this.
Get 1,000 fans back into a Club is actually going to cost Clubs money both in the short term and long term.
Those 1,000 fans going back are going to be Season Ticket holders in the main and therefore provide little to no extra income - it's short sighted to even try and make changes to accommodate that (from purely a business sense).
Those changes are not adapting to the wider, longer term issues that Covid is bringing.
The wider question Clubs need to (sadly) wrestle with is - what if fans can't go back in numbers for the foreseeable future (or ever - I doubt this to be the case by the way).
How does football need to adapt to that.
Finally, from a purely personal perspective, it's a touch much to go spending the kind of money Clubs have on transfers and then go to the Government seeking a bail out. |
But you aren't going to get back to full capacity in one hit, it has to be done via smaller capacities and building up to it.
Clubs can't budget and plan around fans never going back, it's utterly pointless because if that is the case then there is no future for the industry at any level bar the very top where there are TV audiences |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:36 - Sep 28 with 2013 views | giant_stow |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:30 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
But you aren't going to get back to full capacity in one hit, it has to be done via smaller capacities and building up to it.
Clubs can't budget and plan around fans never going back, it's utterly pointless because if that is the case then there is no future for the industry at any level bar the very top where there are TV audiences |
Just to think the unthinkable for a mo, if clubs go to the wall on mass, might that not represent a chance to reshape things on a more sustainable footing? There'd be much hardship ammong admin / other staff, but wouldn't leaner, more community-based clubs form once/when its safe to do so?
Sorry if this is offensive, but through the years there's been much talk in fan circles about money ruining the game, so just wonderring if the inevitable AFCs that would spring up might not result in a more interesting sport which is closer to the fan base? |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:41 - Sep 28 with 2007 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:36 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
Just to think the unthinkable for a mo, if clubs go to the wall on mass, might that not represent a chance to reshape things on a more sustainable footing? There'd be much hardship ammong admin / other staff, but wouldn't leaner, more community-based clubs form once/when its safe to do so?
Sorry if this is offensive, but through the years there's been much talk in fan circles about money ruining the game, so just wonderring if the inevitable AFCs that would spring up might not result in a more interesting sport which is closer to the fan base? |
If people want that then it already exists at lower levels - if a numbeer were to go to the wall it would see a closed shop at the top, with Premier League B teams and feeder clubs mixed in lower down.
The pyramid is the best thing about English football, it is totally unique at the amount of interest there is in it compared to the rest of the world. We are a third tier club in a small town and averaged 20,000 spectators a game last season.
Because a couple of clubs have bad owners like Bury and Macclesfield people look for problems in the lower tiers that don't really exist rather than the numerous positive stories that exist there - the death of the pyramid is the worst thing that could possibly happen | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:51 - Sep 28 with 1994 views | jayessess |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:41 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
If people want that then it already exists at lower levels - if a numbeer were to go to the wall it would see a closed shop at the top, with Premier League B teams and feeder clubs mixed in lower down.
The pyramid is the best thing about English football, it is totally unique at the amount of interest there is in it compared to the rest of the world. We are a third tier club in a small town and averaged 20,000 spectators a game last season.
Because a couple of clubs have bad owners like Bury and Macclesfield people look for problems in the lower tiers that don't really exist rather than the numerous positive stories that exist there - the death of the pyramid is the worst thing that could possibly happen |
Also, it's not like the respective institutions presiding over the Pyramid Apocalypse are going to be desperate to re-design lower league football so it's all financially-prudent democratic-supporter's-trust-run co-ops and charitable foundations, is it? | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:12 - Sep 28 with 1982 views | giant_stow |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 14:41 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
If people want that then it already exists at lower levels - if a numbeer were to go to the wall it would see a closed shop at the top, with Premier League B teams and feeder clubs mixed in lower down.
The pyramid is the best thing about English football, it is totally unique at the amount of interest there is in it compared to the rest of the world. We are a third tier club in a small town and averaged 20,000 spectators a game last season.
Because a couple of clubs have bad owners like Bury and Macclesfield people look for problems in the lower tiers that don't really exist rather than the numerous positive stories that exist there - the death of the pyramid is the worst thing that could possibly happen |
You're much more into footy than me and know far more about it, so I respect your opinion. Having said that, if there has to be pause in watching football and the funds that that brings to the game, then the quesiton is how to pay for that pause of unknown length. One option is govt support, but I can think of more worthy reciepients myself. Another is cost cutting. Another is clubs shutting and later reopenning. None are great - I'm just wonderring if the last option would actually kill the pyramid. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 15:13]
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:21 - Sep 28 with 1977 views | quirkie |
Far too many professional clubs in England, 92 is ridiculous.
Should be no more the 3 professional leagues, 3 divisions of 20 clubs, below that it should be a regionalised semi professional set up.
How on earth have clubs that barely get 2k or 3k each home game are expected to maintain a professional status is absurd. Remember these are clubs who insisted on a wage limit which was enforced on clubs getting 20k+ at home games.
Covid should sort out the English game once and for all. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 15:25]
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:30 - Sep 28 with 1962 views | PJH |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:12 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
You're much more into footy than me and know far more about it, so I respect your opinion. Having said that, if there has to be pause in watching football and the funds that that brings to the game, then the quesiton is how to pay for that pause of unknown length. One option is govt support, but I can think of more worthy reciepients myself. Another is cost cutting. Another is clubs shutting and later reopenning. None are great - I'm just wonderring if the last option would actually kill the pyramid. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 15:13]
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If a substantial number of clubs disappear from L1 and L2 I think that the only hope is a regionalised third division formed out of what is left.
The third division was last regionised in 1957/58 with the fourth division starting from 1958/59.
If a number of Championship clubs go as well then the pyramid would seem to have fragmented just leaving the cash rich Premier League and very little else. |  | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:33 - Sep 28 with 1960 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 12:53 - Sep 28 by pointofblue |
I wouldn’t say people’s personal money or the money which the clubs generate themselves should be redistributed but the television money - for winning the Premier League last year Liverpool were given £174.6m. Norwich, in 20th, got £94.5m and that’s excluding the upcoming parachute payments. In comparison, Championship home sides get between £100k and £140k per home game aired with the away side being given £10k. I think winning the division may bring in something like £500k. It’s a ridiculous difference and something which could be amended to sort out this mess. |
This is the best point in this thread POB.
If the Prem took just 3% off those prizes for next season to put into a Covid pot to help struggling lower league clubs, that'd probably do the job.
Players wouldn't be affected and it's peanuts to the Prem clubs. |  |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:49 - Sep 28 with 1944 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:12 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
You're much more into footy than me and know far more about it, so I respect your opinion. Having said that, if there has to be pause in watching football and the funds that that brings to the game, then the quesiton is how to pay for that pause of unknown length. One option is govt support, but I can think of more worthy reciepients myself. Another is cost cutting. Another is clubs shutting and later reopenning. None are great - I'm just wonderring if the last option would actually kill the pyramid. [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 15:13]
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But I don't see why a local theatre is a more worthy recipient than a local football club, as an example. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:52 - Sep 28 with 1937 views | hype313 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:49 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
But I don't see why a local theatre is a more worthy recipient than a local football club, as an example. |
Agreed, but in the eyes of the Govt, football is awash with money, and it is to a certain extent, but lower down, both have the same issue, they both rely on ticket sales to survive. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:10 - Sep 28 with 1920 views | pointofblue |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:33 - Sep 28 by BrixtonBlue |
This is the best point in this thread POB.
If the Prem took just 3% off those prizes for next season to put into a Covid pot to help struggling lower league clubs, that'd probably do the job.
Players wouldn't be affected and it's peanuts to the Prem clubs. |
Thank you.
That’s the ridiculous thing; would they really miss a small percentage in order to aid the lower leagues? When one club is getting nearly £180m in TV and award money I can see why the government may baulk at handing out anything more. | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:19 - Sep 28 with 1913 views | itfcjoe |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 15:52 - Sep 28 by hype313 |
Agreed, but in the eyes of the Govt, football is awash with money, and it is to a certain extent, but lower down, both have the same issue, they both rely on ticket sales to survive. |
It amazes me that on a football forum for a third tier club, which has attracted 20k fans on average last season, people are happy just to throw the pyramid under the bus adn think the game needs a massive restructure.
Yes, ideally the PL shares more money, but ultimately it is the PL TV deal that earns the money because people want to watch that, not anything else | |
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| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:26 - Sep 28 with 1893 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:19 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
It amazes me that on a football forum for a third tier club, which has attracted 20k fans on average last season, people are happy just to throw the pyramid under the bus adn think the game needs a massive restructure.
Yes, ideally the PL shares more money, but ultimately it is the PL TV deal that earns the money because people want to watch that, not anything else |
Particularly when pre-COVID clubs in L1/L2 were generally operating perfectly fine (with the exception of a couple of clubs with dubious owners) and both divisions were very competitive. | | | |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:49 - Sep 28 with 1873 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Football structure at risk of collapse, Government warned on 16:19 - Sep 28 by itfcjoe |
It amazes me that on a football forum for a third tier club, which has attracted 20k fans on average last season, people are happy just to throw the pyramid under the bus adn think the game needs a massive restructure.
Yes, ideally the PL shares more money, but ultimately it is the PL TV deal that earns the money because people want to watch that, not anything else |
But it's the amount of money the Prem earns (and keeps for itself) which leads directly to the massive differentials and inequality in budgets and therefore competitiveness from the top 6 to the rest of the Prem, then to the top-end Champ (parachute clubs), rest of the Champ, then L1 and L2. |  |
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