| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 16:57 - Oct 15 with 1869 views | StokieBlue |
To be fair, barely anyone seems to have been prosecuted for breaking the C19 rules and that has certainly contributed to the issues we have now.
If it had been draconian like Australia with large and instant fines then people would have paid more attention. Instead they have been guidelines which people could just dismiss if they felt inclined.
Fully understand that would have been hard post-Cummings but I think it's still true.
SB |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:00 - Oct 15 with 1852 views | uefacup81 |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 16:57 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
To be fair, barely anyone seems to have been prosecuted for breaking the C19 rules and that has certainly contributed to the issues we have now.
If it had been draconian like Australia with large and instant fines then people would have paid more attention. Instead they have been guidelines which people could just dismiss if they felt inclined.
Fully understand that would have been hard post-Cummings but I think it's still true.
SB |
That's a fair point re: non-enforcement.
However, up here in Norwich we've had the three students fined £10k each for the house party, and an anti-lockdown/masks protester fined the same for organising a protest here in the city centre.
At the same time you've got the gym-owner in Liverpool who's been fined today for not closing.
Although the enforcement does seem somewhat lax, it appears to avoid certain sections of the population when the police do decide to do something. The whole Tammy Abraham situation goes to back that up. |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:02 - Oct 15 with 1846 views | BlueBadger |
That's another thing to thank Classic Dom for then. The precedent was set there. |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:06 - Oct 15 with 1831 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 16:57 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
To be fair, barely anyone seems to have been prosecuted for breaking the C19 rules and that has certainly contributed to the issues we have now.
If it had been draconian like Australia with large and instant fines then people would have paid more attention. Instead they have been guidelines which people could just dismiss if they felt inclined.
Fully understand that would have been hard post-Cummings but I think it's still true.
SB |
I don't know the total numbers fined so far, but there was the publicised case recently of the 3 students each fined £10,000 for a house party. I think there was 100 people involved. I wonder how many people she came into contact with in the HoC and then on the train all the way back to Scotland...?
So the excuse for her is that in England the rules hadn't come into play? I find that surprising. I thought the guidance is that you must self isolate if you have symptoms, and assumed this would have been incorporated in change in the Coronavirus Act. Maybe not. I can't be bothered to check tbh!
It smacks of one rule for them. Maybe on a technicality she's fine as it's just breaking the guidance not a law, but most of the rest of us are or have made sacrifices to adhere to the guidelines and not put others at risk. She's certainly driven a coach and horses right through the spirit of the guidance (maybe law?).
It undermines efforts to get the public on board, so for that alone there should be some consequences. |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:07 - Oct 15 with 1828 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:02 - Oct 15 by BlueBadger |
That's another thing to thank Classic Dom for then. The precedent was set there. |
Yep. And Jenrick with his bouncing around between two of his 3 homes (you always need three homes I find). | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:08 - Oct 15 with 1826 views | StokieBlue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:00 - Oct 15 by uefacup81 |
That's a fair point re: non-enforcement.
However, up here in Norwich we've had the three students fined £10k each for the house party, and an anti-lockdown/masks protester fined the same for organising a protest here in the city centre.
At the same time you've got the gym-owner in Liverpool who's been fined today for not closing.
Although the enforcement does seem somewhat lax, it appears to avoid certain sections of the population when the police do decide to do something. The whole Tammy Abraham situation goes to back that up. |
They are indeed enforcing some fines now.
Unfortunately it's 5 or 6 months too late - it should have been the case as it was from the start in Australia and other places. There were hardly any fines issued for the first 3 or 4 months.
The fine for the gym is 100 quid, it's nothing. Melbourne issued 2500 fines totalling nearly 5M AUD for breaking curfew.
I agree it's not consistent at the moment but it's far too late anyway.
SB
Edit: Just saw the total number of fines (not just curfew) issued was nearly 12000 totalling 17M AUD. That's far more enforcement than anything we have seen in the UK and that's just in a single city.
[Post edited 15 Oct 2020 17:11]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:15 - Oct 15 with 1803 views | HARRY10 |
It would seem that it is when it involves others, at your direction.control
businesses that have been hit knew what they were doing and took the risk, social gatherings likewise
personal actions veer into a more grey area where an argument of personal health etc may be used in mitigation
however it does all smack of the authorities wanting to be seen as 'doing something' |  | | |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:53 - Oct 15 with 1765 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:08 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
They are indeed enforcing some fines now.
Unfortunately it's 5 or 6 months too late - it should have been the case as it was from the start in Australia and other places. There were hardly any fines issued for the first 3 or 4 months.
The fine for the gym is 100 quid, it's nothing. Melbourne issued 2500 fines totalling nearly 5M AUD for breaking curfew.
I agree it's not consistent at the moment but it's far too late anyway.
SB
Edit: Just saw the total number of fines (not just curfew) issued was nearly 12000 totalling 17M AUD. That's far more enforcement than anything we have seen in the UK and that's just in a single city.
[Post edited 15 Oct 2020 17:11]
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As you've been looking, have you seen any figures on our level of fines? | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 18:48 - Oct 15 with 1727 views | Pinewoodblue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 16:57 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
To be fair, barely anyone seems to have been prosecuted for breaking the C19 rules and that has certainly contributed to the issues we have now.
If it had been draconian like Australia with large and instant fines then people would have paid more attention. Instead they have been guidelines which people could just dismiss if they felt inclined.
Fully understand that would have been hard post-Cummings but I think it's still true.
SB |
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/sep/30/half-of-coronavirus-fines-go-unp |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 18:58 - Oct 15 with 1705 views | StokieBlue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 17:53 - Oct 15 by Swansea_Blue |
As you've been looking, have you seen any figures on our level of fines? |
From the other link posted by Pinewood it looks like 18000 in total and 9000 not paid.
So that's roughly the same amount of fines as a single city in Australia and only 1/10th the income because the fines are too small too make people actually change their ways.
Melbourne is now out of it's draconian lockdown and doing well.
SB | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 19:11 - Oct 15 with 1686 views | Swansea_Blue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 18:58 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
From the other link posted by Pinewood it looks like 18000 in total and 9000 not paid.
So that's roughly the same amount of fines as a single city in Australia and only 1/10th the income because the fines are too small too make people actually change their ways.
Melbourne is now out of it's draconian lockdown and doing well.
SB |
The context is useful cheers. I knew we were reluctant to fine people, but had no idea what the scale of fines were. The Chief Commissioner for Northumbria (Kim McGuiness) was on the radio this morning and was all about education and building a sense of responsibility, rather than enforcement. She was very coy on the enforcement side, refused to get drawn into any commitment about how strict they would be. Maybe becasue they know the guidance and laws have been a bit of a dogs dinner and everyone has been set up for a fall. The police seem to be taking a fairly pragmatic view in fairness and I liked her 'win hearts and minds' approach. There certainly is an argument for strict enforcement though, but you need very clear and consistent guidance if that's going to be fair (government SPADS and ministers not ignoring the guidance would help too). | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 19:14 - Oct 15 with 1681 views | bluelagos |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 18:58 - Oct 15 by StokieBlue |
From the other link posted by Pinewood it looks like 18000 in total and 9000 not paid.
So that's roughly the same amount of fines as a single city in Australia and only 1/10th the income because the fines are too small too make people actually change their ways.
Melbourne is now out of it's draconian lockdown and doing well.
SB |
My brother is down under, was chatting to him earlier.
He told me how arrivals to Aus have to pay $200 a day to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks on arrivals. Was all going well until there was an outbreak which was down to one of the security guards shagging one of the people quarantining...
They have also put up internal borders. He lives in WA and basically hasn't been able to travel within Aus for 6 months.
There are 40k Aussies still overseas who haven't managed to get back yet. They are only allowing 6k a month back he said. |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 19:22 - Oct 15 with 1678 views | NthQldITFC |
Absolute disgrace. Zero integrity left. Why should anybody bother observing any laws or guidance. I've got more sympathy with loony conspiracy nutjobs than I have with people in positions of authority who choose to squirm and bullsh1t rather than hold their hands up and take the consequences of their actions honestly and honourably. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 22:30 - Oct 15 with 1622 views | ghostofescobar |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 19:22 - Oct 15 by NthQldITFC |
Absolute disgrace. Zero integrity left. Why should anybody bother observing any laws or guidance. I've got more sympathy with loony conspiracy nutjobs than I have with people in positions of authority who choose to squirm and bullsh1t rather than hold their hands up and take the consequences of their actions honestly and honourably. |
Why? Erm, because it’s generally the right thing to in a civilised society and also if you don’t, don’t you become exactly the same kind of d1ckhead that you are moaning about? |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 22:59 - Oct 15 with 1595 views | NthQldITFC |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 22:30 - Oct 15 by ghostofescobar |
Why? Erm, because it’s generally the right thing to in a civilised society and also if you don’t, don’t you become exactly the same kind of d1ckhead that you are moaning about? |
I agree. It was a rhetorical question, but lacking a question mark. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 07:54 - Oct 16 with 1508 views | StokieBlue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 19:11 - Oct 15 by Swansea_Blue |
The context is useful cheers. I knew we were reluctant to fine people, but had no idea what the scale of fines were. The Chief Commissioner for Northumbria (Kim McGuiness) was on the radio this morning and was all about education and building a sense of responsibility, rather than enforcement. She was very coy on the enforcement side, refused to get drawn into any commitment about how strict they would be. Maybe becasue they know the guidance and laws have been a bit of a dogs dinner and everyone has been set up for a fall. The police seem to be taking a fairly pragmatic view in fairness and I liked her 'win hearts and minds' approach. There certainly is an argument for strict enforcement though, but you need very clear and consistent guidance if that's going to be fair (government SPADS and ministers not ignoring the guidance would help too). |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54564448
So, should only the venue owner be fined, or should everyone attending be fined?
If they want people to listen and obey the rules then surely it's the second one? Everyone knows you can't stay at a party with 100 people. Not fining everyone shows there are no consequences in breaking the rules so people will keep doing it.
SB | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 08:32 - Oct 16 with 1476 views | MonkeyAlan |
It said on the news the other night around 19,000 fines have been issued. I was surprised it was that many, which is why l remembered the figure. |  | | |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 08:47 - Oct 16 with 1450 views | Herbivore |
If she could be sacked I'm sure she would be given that the party have suspended her and urged her to resign.
Contrast that with Classic Dom, who can be sacked, being publicly backed by every Tory going for similarly egregious breaches of lockdown rules at the height of the pandemic. Remarkably he's still running the country with impunity. That's a significant factor in the public health messaging being undermined and the government having pretty much zero moral authority to tell people what to do. The only route they really have now is enforcement, but that won't be a good look when those at the top have been seen to get away with stuff. |  |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:04 - Oct 16 with 1437 views | solomon |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 08:32 - Oct 16 by MonkeyAlan |
It said on the news the other night around 19,000 fines have been issued. I was surprised it was that many, which is why l remembered the figure. |
I’d imagine that a great proportion of those fines will never be paid, most can’t pay and those that do will in all probability arrange to do so by monthly instalments. It doesn’t make it right but everyone’s situation is different. |  | | |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:07 - Oct 16 with 1433 views | StokieBlue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:04 - Oct 16 by solomon |
I’d imagine that a great proportion of those fines will never be paid, most can’t pay and those that do will in all probability arrange to do so by monthly instalments. It doesn’t make it right but everyone’s situation is different. |
Which in some ways is even worse.
Break the rules because you know you can't and thus won't pay so what difference does it make?
Fully understand everyone's situation is different but nobody is forcing them to break the rules - it's entirely their own choice.
SB [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 9:08]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:18 - Oct 16 with 1420 views | Pinewoodblue |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:04 - Oct 16 by solomon |
I’d imagine that a great proportion of those fines will never be paid, most can’t pay and those that do will in all probability arrange to do so by monthly instalments. It doesn’t make it right but everyone’s situation is different. |
I would be surprised if they even took the majority of those who didn’t pay up to court.
Some will have given false information, a few will of the original fines will have been wrongly dished out. Can see CPS saying “not in the public interest” to proceed with court action. Will send a wrong signal as when there is a third upsurge and restrictions imposed people will think they can ignore the rules and get away with it.
Strong leadership is sadly lacking. | |
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| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 12:54 - Oct 16 with 1372 views | solomon |
| One rule for them pt. 5,258 on 09:18 - Oct 16 by Pinewoodblue |
I would be surprised if they even took the majority of those who didn’t pay up to court.
Some will have given false information, a few will of the original fines will have been wrongly dished out. Can see CPS saying “not in the public interest” to proceed with court action. Will send a wrong signal as when there is a third upsurge and restrictions imposed people will think they can ignore the rules and get away with it.
Strong leadership is sadly lacking. |
This isn’t unique to COVID-19, this sort of thing has been going on before Covid, regardless of the implications there will be some who deliberately flout the requirements and couldn’t give a rats ar5e about it. | | | |
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