| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me 09:46 - Oct 23 with 1865 views | Keno |
I was blessed enough to have watched the town team from about 73 onwards and at times, particularly after the arrival of the Arnie & Franz, we play some amazing football.
How would you describe was the team of 61?
I always imagine workmanlike functional etc but is that fair?
[Post edited 23 Oct 2020 9:47]
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 09:56 - Oct 23 with 1660 views | blueislander |
That team played in a formation that totally flummoxed most teams. Lead better lying deep gave him a huge amount of time and space to spray the ball about. Elsworthy was a collosus in midfield, but the main factor was the number of goals that Crawford and Philips scored. The defense was functional not brilliant andBailey totally commanded his box. That is how I remember, but my senility May have given me blue tinted specs. |  | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:00 - Oct 23 with 1650 views | PJH |
Basically Sir Alf devised a way of playing that was unique at the time and the system he devised fitted the players that he had and the players that he had fitted the system.
Wingers back then were normally quick and would look to beat their fullback for pace and cross the ball for the central forwards.
Roy Stephenson could do that although like Jimmy Leadbetter he was an inside forward converted to play wide.
Sir Alf played both of his wingers deeper than normal which gave the opposition fullbacks a problem that they had not seen before and they had to decide whether to play in their 'normal' position and wait for an approaching winger that might never arrive or push forward and play from where the winger was actually playing and leave gaps behind.
Crawford and Phillips were lethal as strikers and complimented each other so well because Crawford snapped up chances from the rebounds off woodwork and goalkeeper from Phillips's truly thunderous shooting.
By the following season most teams had worked out a way of combating Sir Alf's way of playing but for that one season it was genuinely unique and sometimes unstoppable.
As individual's not many of them would have automatically got into other top sides but as a team they worked perfectly together.
You usually have to wait until April 28th to get this input from me! |  | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:09 - Oct 23 with 1635 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 09:56 - Oct 23 by blueislander |
That team played in a formation that totally flummoxed most teams. Lead better lying deep gave him a huge amount of time and space to spray the ball about. Elsworthy was a collosus in midfield, but the main factor was the number of goals that Crawford and Philips scored. The defense was functional not brilliant andBailey totally commanded his box. That is how I remember, but my senility May have given me blue tinted specs. |
Oh for a time machine!! | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:11 - Oct 23 with 1625 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:00 - Oct 23 by PJH |
Basically Sir Alf devised a way of playing that was unique at the time and the system he devised fitted the players that he had and the players that he had fitted the system.
Wingers back then were normally quick and would look to beat their fullback for pace and cross the ball for the central forwards.
Roy Stephenson could do that although like Jimmy Leadbetter he was an inside forward converted to play wide.
Sir Alf played both of his wingers deeper than normal which gave the opposition fullbacks a problem that they had not seen before and they had to decide whether to play in their 'normal' position and wait for an approaching winger that might never arrive or push forward and play from where the winger was actually playing and leave gaps behind.
Crawford and Phillips were lethal as strikers and complimented each other so well because Crawford snapped up chances from the rebounds off woodwork and goalkeeper from Phillips's truly thunderous shooting.
By the following season most teams had worked out a way of combating Sir Alf's way of playing but for that one season it was genuinely unique and sometimes unstoppable.
As individual's not many of them would have automatically got into other top sides but as a team they worked perfectly together.
You usually have to wait until April 28th to get this input from me! |
The comment about being 'found out' the next season is interesting.
Looking back Robson reinvented his team at least 2 (if not 3 times)
Would Sir Alf have been able to do the same if he hadn't moved on? | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:18 - Oct 23 with 1613 views | PJH |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:11 - Oct 23 by Keno |
The comment about being 'found out' the next season is interesting.
Looking back Robson reinvented his team at least 2 (if not 3 times)
Would Sir Alf have been able to do the same if he hadn't moved on? |
I don't think that he would have been able to so what SBR did.
He did not make many signings, Bobby Blackwood was his only major addition to the title winning squad, but as that was before substitutes you only really needed a 'team'.
The bulk of that 1961/62 side were ageing together so IF Sir Alf had not gone it would have been interesting to see how he changed it.
Perhaps he would have come up with another system that suited what he had got but I don't think he would have done what SBR did because Sir Bobby really created three distinct teams with the third one playing a completely different way to the first two. | | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:29 - Oct 23 with 1594 views | eireblue |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:00 - Oct 23 by PJH |
Basically Sir Alf devised a way of playing that was unique at the time and the system he devised fitted the players that he had and the players that he had fitted the system.
Wingers back then were normally quick and would look to beat their fullback for pace and cross the ball for the central forwards.
Roy Stephenson could do that although like Jimmy Leadbetter he was an inside forward converted to play wide.
Sir Alf played both of his wingers deeper than normal which gave the opposition fullbacks a problem that they had not seen before and they had to decide whether to play in their 'normal' position and wait for an approaching winger that might never arrive or push forward and play from where the winger was actually playing and leave gaps behind.
Crawford and Phillips were lethal as strikers and complimented each other so well because Crawford snapped up chances from the rebounds off woodwork and goalkeeper from Phillips's truly thunderous shooting.
By the following season most teams had worked out a way of combating Sir Alf's way of playing but for that one season it was genuinely unique and sometimes unstoppable.
As individual's not many of them would have automatically got into other top sides but as a team they worked perfectly together.
You usually have to wait until April 28th to get this input from me! |
Crikey, that’s some accuracy to play that sort of tactic, you aim for the posts, then I’ll knock in from the rebound.
No wonder they were such a magnificent team. |  | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:38 - Oct 23 with 1577 views | PJH |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:29 - Oct 23 by eireblue |
Crikey, that’s some accuracy to play that sort of tactic, you aim for the posts, then I’ll knock in from the rebound.
No wonder they were such a magnificent team. |
I suppose that Ted Phillips did sometimes miss the goal completely with his shots which meant that being near the front in the North Stand or in Churchman's was not a good place to be when he did. | | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:53 - Oct 23 with 1544 views | BloomBlue |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:18 - Oct 23 by PJH |
I don't think that he would have been able to so what SBR did.
He did not make many signings, Bobby Blackwood was his only major addition to the title winning squad, but as that was before substitutes you only really needed a 'team'.
The bulk of that 1961/62 side were ageing together so IF Sir Alf had not gone it would have been interesting to see how he changed it.
Perhaps he would have come up with another system that suited what he had got but I don't think he would have done what SBR did because Sir Bobby really created three distinct teams with the third one playing a completely different way to the first two. |
As you say he took the players he had and devised a system which suited them which is why he was such a clever manager. A lot of people claimed he was lucky he inherited the players he did but I've always argued it wasn't luck he converted some of the players to play in different positions but more importantly played to their strengths
I do actually think Sir Alf would have been able to do what Sir Bob did, in many ways he proved it with England he also isn't given the credit he deserves as his ideas especially with wingers/attacking midfielders was revolutionary. If a manager did that today people would be hailing them a genius.
After the England role for him anything was going to be a step down and while he still had a passion for football it was clearly waning. I enjoyed my many conversations with him over the years but I genuinely believe if he had stayed he would have been successful again with a 'new' Town team |  | | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:54 - Oct 23 with 1544 views | ArnieM |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 09:56 - Oct 23 by blueislander |
That team played in a formation that totally flummoxed most teams. Lead better lying deep gave him a huge amount of time and space to spray the ball about. Elsworthy was a collosus in midfield, but the main factor was the number of goals that Crawford and Philips scored. The defense was functional not brilliant andBailey totally commanded his box. That is how I remember, but my senility May have given me blue tinted specs. |
I just missed that Champions team, but Id say from talking to family members who did see that side, that Town was a proper "team" with no prima donas . Each player playing and understanding their role in the team, and we had an outstanding strike partnership, that were simply lethal in front of goal. |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:57 - Oct 23 with 1541 views | Ryorry |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:18 - Oct 23 by PJH |
I don't think that he would have been able to so what SBR did.
He did not make many signings, Bobby Blackwood was his only major addition to the title winning squad, but as that was before substitutes you only really needed a 'team'.
The bulk of that 1961/62 side were ageing together so IF Sir Alf had not gone it would have been interesting to see how he changed it.
Perhaps he would have come up with another system that suited what he had got but I don't think he would have done what SBR did because Sir Bobby really created three distinct teams with the third one playing a completely different way to the first two. |
Cripes, you really are the Encyclopedia Brittanica of ITFC (sign of the times most spring chickens half our age won't ever have seen an EB! which reminds me that my bro, when about 20, spent some time trying to sell them door - door. Don't think he ever made a sale come to think about it).
Never knew about 'no subs' back then until now. Cheers. |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:13 - Oct 23 with 1511 views | ArnieM |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:38 - Oct 23 by PJH |
I suppose that Ted Phillips did sometimes miss the goal completely with his shots which meant that being near the front in the North Stand or in Churchman's was not a good place to be when he did. |
lol that's exactly where my uncle stood, (front of Churchman's) . He's 92 yrs old now, and he often tells me that goalkeepers used actually get out of the way of Ted Phillips shots because they were so hard! I think they once measured his shot at over 80mph !! [Post edited 23 Oct 2020 11:13]
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:21 - Oct 23 with 1492 views | monty_radio |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:11 - Oct 23 by Keno |
The comment about being 'found out' the next season is interesting.
Looking back Robson reinvented his team at least 2 (if not 3 times)
Would Sir Alf have been able to do the same if he hadn't moved on? |
Alf's team was a gradual construct, using a system that maximised their skills. As PJH said, Bobby Blackwood was his only later significant addition, and only he and Moran cost anything.
As Town improved under Bobby (a four year project before it really bore fruit) and success arrived, we were both able to sell and buy to an extent. Players like Hunter, Johnson and Mariner arrived for fees of £60K to £220K and fees were recouped for the likes of Talbot (£450K) and Bobby Bell which Ramsey could only dream of. So although there were many home-grown players, Robson's teams eventually benefited financially, to a certain extent, by judiciously building on previous success. | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:24 - Oct 23 with 1488 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:21 - Oct 23 by monty_radio |
Alf's team was a gradual construct, using a system that maximised their skills. As PJH said, Bobby Blackwood was his only later significant addition, and only he and Moran cost anything.
As Town improved under Bobby (a four year project before it really bore fruit) and success arrived, we were both able to sell and buy to an extent. Players like Hunter, Johnson and Mariner arrived for fees of £60K to £220K and fees were recouped for the likes of Talbot (£450K) and Bobby Bell which Ramsey could only dream of. So although there were many home-grown players, Robson's teams eventually benefited financially, to a certain extent, by judiciously building on previous success. |
I seem to remember we sold Talbot for £450k and the two dutch guys for a combined £200k
Not a bad bit of summer business | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:31 - Oct 23 with 1473 views | NewcyBlue |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:18 - Oct 23 by PJH |
I don't think that he would have been able to so what SBR did.
He did not make many signings, Bobby Blackwood was his only major addition to the title winning squad, but as that was before substitutes you only really needed a 'team'.
The bulk of that 1961/62 side were ageing together so IF Sir Alf had not gone it would have been interesting to see how he changed it.
Perhaps he would have come up with another system that suited what he had got but I don't think he would have done what SBR did because Sir Bobby really created three distinct teams with the third one playing a completely different way to the first two. |
As an aside, I am genuinely looking forward to spending time with you again before a match. It’s always a pleasure to listen to you talk about ITFC past and present. |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:31 - Oct 23 with 1473 views | WeWereZombies |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:13 - Oct 23 by ArnieM |
lol that's exactly where my uncle stood, (front of Churchman's) . He's 92 yrs old now, and he often tells me that goalkeepers used actually get out of the way of Ted Phillips shots because they were so hard! I think they once measured his shot at over 80mph !! [Post edited 23 Oct 2020 11:13]
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I can remember reading in 'Victor', I would probably have been ten years old, one of the little snippets they put along the bottom of pages that Ted Phillips shot had been measured at seventy five miles an hour. You have to put this in context though by remembering that back then the game was played with leather footballs. If you got hit by the laced up bit on one of those travelling at seventy five miles an hour it might sting a bit, especially on a rainy afternoon when the ball was soaked through. |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:33 - Oct 23 with 1468 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:31 - Oct 23 by WeWereZombies |
I can remember reading in 'Victor', I would probably have been ten years old, one of the little snippets they put along the bottom of pages that Ted Phillips shot had been measured at seventy five miles an hour. You have to put this in context though by remembering that back then the game was played with leather footballs. If you got hit by the laced up bit on one of those travelling at seventy five miles an hour it might sting a bit, especially on a rainy afternoon when the ball was soaked through. |
and the understatement of the week goes to ....."it might sting a bit" | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:34 - Oct 23 with 1467 views | hoppy |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:24 - Oct 23 by Keno |
I seem to remember we sold Talbot for £450k and the two dutch guys for a combined £200k
Not a bad bit of summer business |
Muhren joined in the summer of 78. Thijssen didn't join until February 79. |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:39 - Oct 23 with 1454 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:34 - Oct 23 by hoppy |
Muhren joined in the summer of 78. Thijssen didn't join until February 79. |
From memory (not the most reliable source of info) they were signed at the same time | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:39 - Oct 23 with 1453 views | ArnieM |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:33 - Oct 23 by Keno |
and the understatement of the week goes to ....."it might sting a bit" |
not a wonder the GK's used to duck then lol ! | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:44 - Oct 23 with 1447 views | WeWereZombies |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:39 - Oct 23 by Keno |
From memory (not the most reliable source of info) they were signed at the same time |
Sorry Keno, Arnold Johannes Hyacinthus Mühren definitely arrived first and when we knew Fransciscus Johannes 'Frans' Thijssen was arriving a year later we all thought 'if this one is even half as good as Arnie he will be something', it was a very pleasant surprise when he found that he was different but just as good: | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:58 - Oct 23 with 1435 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:44 - Oct 23 by WeWereZombies |
Sorry Keno, Arnold Johannes Hyacinthus Mühren definitely arrived first and when we knew Fransciscus Johannes 'Frans' Thijssen was arriving a year later we all thought 'if this one is even half as good as Arnie he will be something', it was a very pleasant surprise when he found that he was different but just as good: |
I will happily sit corrected | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:59 - Oct 23 with 1435 views | bobwya |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:18 - Oct 23 by PJH |
I don't think that he would have been able to so what SBR did.
He did not make many signings, Bobby Blackwood was his only major addition to the title winning squad, but as that was before substitutes you only really needed a 'team'.
The bulk of that 1961/62 side were ageing together so IF Sir Alf had not gone it would have been interesting to see how he changed it.
Perhaps he would have come up with another system that suited what he had got but I don't think he would have done what SBR did because Sir Bobby really created three distinct teams with the third one playing a completely different way to the first two. |
As you say the team was aging together and we with no depth ìn reserve Jackie Milburn really suffered . I'm ñever sure how much he was really out of his depth and how much was t fault of earlierdeçìsions. | | | |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 12:03 - Oct 23 with 1428 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 10:11 - Oct 23 by Keno |
The comment about being 'found out' the next season is interesting.
Looking back Robson reinvented his team at least 2 (if not 3 times)
Would Sir Alf have been able to do the same if he hadn't moved on? |
Even back in those days there would have been tactical geniuses like Paul Lambert, ready to turn opposition strengths into weaknesses |  |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 12:16 - Oct 23 with 1416 views | WeWereZombies |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 11:58 - Oct 23 by Keno |
I will happily sit corrected |
Orthopedic undercrackers? | |
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| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 12:35 - Oct 23 with 1405 views | Keno |
| A question for PJH and other posters even older than me on 12:16 - Oct 23 by WeWereZombies |
Orthopedic undercrackers? |
preparation H | |
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