| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) 13:07 - Oct 29 with 29382 views | Ewan_Oozami |
According to my highly dodgy Twitter feed... [Post edited 29 Oct 2020 13:10]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:41 - Oct 30 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:30 - Oct 30 by itfcjoe |
The report was never going to go after individuals, but it talks of a failure of leadership and that it had committed unlawful acts.
And whilst we've got a pandemic to try and deal with, it all has to be about Corbyn and Labour infighting for him, like it was when he couldn't just accept the definition of antisemitism and chose trying to amend one of the clauses as his hill to die on.
What can Starmer do other than implement the recommendations and stress the seriousness of the report and the fact it must never happen again - when Corbyn and his cranks and outriders like Mendoza, Bastani, Williamson are all over the press again yesterday they don't realise how bad a look it is to 99% of people |
Apology accepted.
Yes, from a regulatory perspective the buck stops there. I’m fine with that.
The report doesn’t explain the context as that’s not within its ambit. And I’m also fine with that.
But ignoring that context doesn’t tell us why Corbyn failed to deliver a robust complaints procedure after taking on board the Chakrabarti recommendations in 2016 but that results and the procedures were only being improved after Jennie Formby took over 2 years later.
Read this by proper journalists who know what they’re doing:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/ehrc-labour-antisemitism-starmer-corbyn-so |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:45 - Oct 30 with 882 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:32 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Unfortunately there’s no way some on here will ever accept there was a problem, even if JC had come out and completely and fessed up yesterday they’d still be arguing it’s all a conspiracy, they can’t be helped or reasoned with on this, their pride won’t allow it. Time to let them be alone with their thoughts and grievances, most of us can take comfort this whole sordid affair looks like it’s being finally addressed (and other institutions and political parties are equally reprimanded if such allegations are found to be true) |
What is with the state of your arguments that you need to misrepresent what people say?
“It’s all a conspiracy” ... Who is saying that?
Please stop following me around and making stuff up. Not as bad as the post I asked to be removed but you clearly don’t care how accurate your accusations are. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:18 - Oct 30 with 840 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:45 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
What is with the state of your arguments that you need to misrepresent what people say?
“It’s all a conspiracy” ... Who is saying that?
Please stop following me around and making stuff up. Not as bad as the post I asked to be removed but you clearly don’t care how accurate your accusations are. |
Save your breath, you’ll need it later when inflating your girlfriend |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:21 - Oct 30 with 834 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:18 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Save your breath, you’ll need it later when inflating your girlfriend |
Haha! Your best post ever.
Beautifully random.
And I use a foot pump. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 17:21]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:22 - Oct 30 with 824 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:21 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
Haha! Your best post ever.
Beautifully random.
And I use a foot pump. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 17:21]
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Go steady you won’t have enough energy son | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:23 - Oct 30 with 816 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:22 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Go steady you won’t have enough energy son |
You’re on a roll. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:27 - Oct 30 with 803 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:23 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
You’re on a roll. |
I am, but not a racist one | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:27 - Oct 30 with 813 views | BlueBadger |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:18 - Oct 30 by itfcjoe |
This is a good read by Ian Dunt
They're out there now, acting about as badly as you might expect. Jeremy Corbyn kicked it off yesterday when he insisted that the mountain of well-documented anti-semitism in the Labour party under his leadership was "dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents". His loyalists are currently churning out the same torrid nonsense on social media - muddying the water, misrepresenting the report, and seeking, either implicitly or explicitly, to rubbish the whistleblowers. Unite general secretary Len McCluskey is agitating for a fight, demanding that Keir Starmer put 'party unity' - by which he means inaction - over the principle of anti-racism.
All that was required of these figures was an apology. Anyone still questioning the existence of anti-semitism in the Labour party is purposefully blind to it. There is no other explanation. The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) report yesterday showed that it was rife in the party, that the leadership failed to provide the funding or training for it to be tackled effectively and that it repeatedly interfered with investigations, particularly when they were media sensitive.
All they had to do was say sorry. Or failing that, say nothing. Let the party deal with the mess they had created. It was a small ask, after everything. Instead we get this rank denialism. They had learned nothing. They had not bothered thinking about it at all. They had shown not the slightest flicker of moral introspection. When the moment came, they regurgitated the same clapped-out, hands-over-your-ears self-entitlement which had created the situation in the first place.
There's no surprise there. These qualities were in the project from the very beginning. We had no idea how bad they would get, the depths to which they would sink, but the basic outlines were there. And there is a great deal we can learn from that.
It started with the notion that the leader will be undermined by the media and vested interests because of his radical agenda. This is ultimately a core notion within far-left thought. It is a project to overthrow capitalism, so capitalism will obviously work against it to prevent that. It follows that the media and various powerful economic lobbies will conspire to eradicate anyone who poses a threat to it.
So from the very beginning, Corbynism viewed the media as a hostile enemy encampment. And in many cases, of course, that's true. The Telegraph is not going to write positive reviews of a far-left leader, or even a centre-left one. But actually Britain's broadcasting environment was quite conducive to their message. With control over the opposition party, the impartiality requirements kicked in, and they were duly given their time to speak. Even the really rather wacky Corbyn outriders - the sort who in any normal period would have been relegated to the outer reaches of the blogosphere - were securing positions in prominent TV slots.
But of course coverage means scrutiny. That's sort of the key to the entire notion of holding power to account. And yet the basic conspiratorial view of capitalist media relations meant this scrutiny could not be treated as part of a test of validity or an assessment of suitability for power. It was instead a conspiracy. This prevented Corbynism's adherents from hearing criticism or evaluating it. And they therefore fell into a deadly psychological trap. They built a wall around the leader whereby any scrutiny of him, any critical questioning, was by definition a cynical attempt to undermine him. That which was supportive was genuine. That which was not was discredited. There could, under this model, be no credible interrogation of the leader.
This epistemological approach shares many qualities with certain key anti-semitic tropes - namely that all suggestions of anti-semitism come from the 'Israel lobby'. It provides a set of intellectual assumptions which are similar to the ones which operate in anti-semitic circles, and thereby encouraged its spread through the party.
But more importantly than that, it meant that those in the party who were not anti-semitic lost the moral capacity to deal with anti-semitism when it raised its head. After all, the complains of anti-semitism were criticisms of the leadership. They made Corbyn's life harder. So they must by definition be coming from those who wanted to undermine him - Blairites, Conservatives, the press, capitalist forces in general. A great insurmountable mental obstacle was erected which prevented them from seeing the legitimacy of what was being raised.
Those who have done the most work to uncover and address anti-semitism in the Labour party have repeatedly raised this point. The Campaign Against Antisemitism yesterday called it 'the Livingstone formulation': "Rather than deal with the complaint in its substance, the bona-fides of the person raising the complaint are brought into question." Starmer recognised it as a core element of addressing the problem, when he said that those who insisted it was "all exaggerated, or a factional attack... are part of the problem". The fact that it is so plainly visible in the response to yesterday's report is further evidence of how pervasive it is in the Corbyn movement.
It is an intellectual failing, yes. But more than that it is a moral failing. It means that you allow people with power to do whatever they want, without ever having to face any questioning, installed as they are with a supporter-built protective shield to block criticism.
The roots in this case lie in a centuries-old form of Marxist reasoning, which deployed a generalised conceptual form of conspiracy theory to explain the failure of its historic predictions. But this is not restricted to Marxism. It can be seen everywhere. Certainly you see similar psychological processes on the pro-Brexit right, whereby information is judged by the usefulness to the tribe rather than its veracity.
The truth is, we're all susceptible to it. We're all tempted to cover our eyes when we see evidence emerge against a leader we admire. We all want to tell ourselves fairy stories about conspiracies instead of grappling with uncomfortable truths. It is up to all of us to police our political alliances, to check for racism or discrimination within them, to ensure that there are clear systems of accountability so that the temptations of solidarity do not overrule the demands of equality.
That's one of the key things we can learn from the terrible muck being flung around today. Watch the people who are doing it closely. Note the way they cannot bear to engage with the evidence, they way that loyalty to the leader becomes so all-encompassing that there is no moral limit to what they will justify. As grim as it is, it is instructive. We can make sure that we never, ever allow the same thing to happen to us. |
I quite like how Darth's downvote eloquently demonstrates the point of the article. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 22:05]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:31 - Oct 30 with 784 views | HARRY10 |
Wow, a bunch if entrists sought to take control of the Labour Party, and are currently being turfed out under the guise of removing anti semitism.
I wonder if the same will now be done by the Tory Party who has a similar line in extremism, only theirs is towards muslims.
One positive thing, it yet again exposes the nonsense of PR [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 17:38]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:34 - Oct 30 with 778 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:27 - Oct 30 by solomon |
I am, but not a racist one |
What’s a racist roll?
I’ve always had my suspicions about cobs. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:35 - Oct 30 with 774 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:27 - Oct 30 by BlueBadger |
I quite like how Darth's downvote eloquently demonstrates the point of the article. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 22:05]
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Who said that? | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:36 - Oct 30 with 773 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:34 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
What’s a racist roll?
I’ve always had my suspicions about cobs. |
Baps are the real enemy | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:36 - Oct 30 with 770 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:36 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Baps are the real enemy |
For you maybe. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:45 - Oct 30 with 742 views | tractordownsouth |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:28 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
Dunt FFS. He’s not a journalist who uses facts but a hack who weaves his opinions into a narrative.
And he knows full well he’d have waded in whatever Corbyn said or didn’t say.
He can’t handle the fact that Corbyn didn’t just roll over but defended himself from the attacks that were inevitably incoming. But I think what gets Dunt most is that Corbyn’s statement was 100% factually correct. |
What part of what Dunt said did you take issue with? |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:50 - Oct 30 with 732 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:45 - Oct 30 by tractordownsouth |
What part of what Dunt said did you take issue with? |
His characterisation of what’s going on in his own mind.
Contrast that with the MiddleEastEye article I linked, another opinion but one that looked at the report in detail and understood what it meant. Dunt could learn a thing or two.
You can reverse the whole of Dunt’s article and apply it to journalists like him who have been particularly shjite and carried away by the groupthink. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 17:52]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:59 - Oct 30 with 713 views | monytowbray |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:31 - Oct 30 by HARRY10 |
Wow, a bunch if entrists sought to take control of the Labour Party, and are currently being turfed out under the guise of removing anti semitism.
I wonder if the same will now be done by the Tory Party who has a similar line in extremism, only theirs is towards muslims.
One positive thing, it yet again exposes the nonsense of PR [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 17:38]
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No, they do plenty of stuff that suggests they’re full of anti semites too. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:01 - Oct 30 with 708 views | monytowbray |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:32 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Unfortunately there’s no way some on here will ever accept there was a problem, even if JC had come out and completely and fessed up yesterday they’d still be arguing it’s all a conspiracy, they can’t be helped or reasoned with on this, their pride won’t allow it. Time to let them be alone with their thoughts and grievances, most of us can take comfort this whole sordid affair looks like it’s being finally addressed (and other institutions and political parties are equally reprimanded if such allegations are found to be true) |
This take doesn’t really sum up what’s actually being said in the thread though.
Perhaps you’d like to have a go at answering the questions I asked Bloom he swerved? | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:08 - Oct 30 with 692 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:18 - Oct 30 by solomon |
Save your breath, you’ll need it later when inflating your girlfriend |
Ah, good internetting. I've filed that away in the memory banks for later usage. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:23 - Oct 30 with 677 views | vindicatedblue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 09:11 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
Here’s a good example.
I would say anyone who thinks “the Jews” are in control or act as a single group is guilty of antisemitism. So when Naz Shah shares a meme from Jewish Norman Finkelstein where he’s making the not entirely facetious point that Israel should relocate to the MidWest of the US that’s a political statement however harsh it may seem.
When Naz Shah gets some pushback on her tweet and says “The Jews are out in force” then that’s antisemitic. As the antisemitism crisis should have shown the Jewish community isn’t some homogenous group nor are they to be linked implicitly with support for Israel. |
What about if somebody accuses 68 Britiah Rabbi's who condemned antisemitism in the Labour Party as being organised by the Israeli embassy? |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:50 - Oct 30 with 641 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:23 - Oct 30 by vindicatedblue |
What about if somebody accuses 68 Britiah Rabbi's who condemned antisemitism in the Labour Party as being organised by the Israeli embassy? |
They should look into that. The Israeli Embassy is/was heavily involved in organizing activities/groups and always has been since Peter Osborne was looking into it back in 2008/9.
But in this case it was organized by the JLM boss and she was only an ex-Israeli Embassy employee so .... wait a minute!
I have no proof for this, and I have no idea what Willsman’s is, but it’s not a shadowy conspiracy theory when all these actors are known and in plain sight, often caught on camera talking about this sort of stuff.
If Willsman is just connecting these dots without any other corroboration he needs to retract it. We also need much more transparency about a foreign government’s intimate involvement in our party politics.
I’m sure we can both agree on that. If as you stated, there’s nothing wrong with it or the wider Israel lobby that you think is justified then it would be good to be much clearer about what’s going on and why an Israeli embassy officia felt moved to discuss “taking down” pro-Palestinian politicians in the UK including Alan Duncan, a government minister.
I’m sure it’s all perfectly above board but might be good to have that all out in the open. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:57 - Oct 30 with 629 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:13 - Oct 30 by itfcjoe |
Starmer says those who claim it is exaggerated are a part of the problem, Corbyn says it was exaggerated - it’s fairly clear how it would end |
The issue with what Starmer said is that I think a lot of people - not just Corbyn supporters - do think it was exaggerated by the media who were clearly out to get Corbyn on whatever grounds they could. Someone who has made his opposition to Corbyn quite clear stated earlier in the thread that "I don't think it was a wide-spread as some media hype suggested" Are they part of the problem?
And for clarity's sake, saying there was exaggeration is different to saying there was not a problem. |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 19:00 - Oct 30 with 628 views | vindicatedblue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 18:50 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
They should look into that. The Israeli Embassy is/was heavily involved in organizing activities/groups and always has been since Peter Osborne was looking into it back in 2008/9.
But in this case it was organized by the JLM boss and she was only an ex-Israeli Embassy employee so .... wait a minute!
I have no proof for this, and I have no idea what Willsman’s is, but it’s not a shadowy conspiracy theory when all these actors are known and in plain sight, often caught on camera talking about this sort of stuff.
If Willsman is just connecting these dots without any other corroboration he needs to retract it. We also need much more transparency about a foreign government’s intimate involvement in our party politics.
I’m sure we can both agree on that. If as you stated, there’s nothing wrong with it or the wider Israel lobby that you think is justified then it would be good to be much clearer about what’s going on and why an Israeli embassy officia felt moved to discuss “taking down” pro-Palestinian politicians in the UK including Alan Duncan, a government minister.
I’m sure it’s all perfectly above board but might be good to have that all out in the open. |
He accused 69 British born Jews or acting on behalf of the Israeli Embassy.
You said that it was "pretty accurate" at the time.
He was suspended by the Labour party for antisemitism after making those comments. | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 19:15 - Oct 30 with 590 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 19:00 - Oct 30 by vindicatedblue |
He accused 69 British born Jews or acting on behalf of the Israeli Embassy.
You said that it was "pretty accurate" at the time.
He was suspended by the Labour party for antisemitism after making those comments. |
Here we go.
As you know, I didn’t say that individual comment was “pretty accurate”. There were two others as well re: the coordinating involvement of the Israeli embassy and the ex-embassy official in charge of the JLM.
You seem to accept those yourself as you haven’t challenged me. But I was very clear that the last one needed more evidence or it should be retracted.
So 2 pretty clear comments and a 3rd that sees those first 2 linked although needing more evidence of a direct link. So yeah, I’m happy with “pretty accurate” overall.
It certainly beats “antisemitic trope” in the accuracy stakes. That’s crazy talk. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 19:20 - Oct 30 with 584 views | BlueBadger |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 17:59 - Oct 30 by monytowbray |
No, they do plenty of stuff that suggests they’re full of anti semites too. |
With all due respect, 'the Tories are racist' is well....Tuesday. 'Labour are racist' is news because well, historically they've been much, much better about this. The fact that they've failed as badly badly as this and people are STILL trying to excuse it by saying 'yes but the other lot are worse'.
Just because the alternatives are worse, doesn't mean you should stop striving to be better. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 22:27]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 19:29 - Oct 30 with 554 views | Ryorry |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 16:21 - Oct 30 by Darth_Koont |
Then Starmer has no respect for the truth. Nor for public debate.
The narrative suits him and his political ambitions. I don’t see how that suits us as a country in trying to move away from performative and dishonest charlatans in government. |
You can't see the wood for the trees on this - and I'd say that's similar to Corbyn actually.
I do get your point that there may be wriggle-room over whether the accuracy of the numbers of accusations of antisemitism were 100% or 99.5% or 98.3% or whatever similar fine margin - but what you (and JC) are missing is that yesterday was not the time for quibbling about the exact purity of the numbers
The insistence by both of you on a truth that is 100% "pure", when what was actually needed was/is for a broader truth to be recognised - ie that there was antisemitism within the LP and that the time has come for it to be rooted out, however painful that may be, was a big mistake.
All JC had to do for the sake of the Labour Party and the country was resist the urge to equivocate about the findings of the report, do the statesmanlike thing, apologise for the antisemitism within Labour that occurred on his watch, properly accept the report's findings, & promise to do his best to help prevent AS in future. That would have been unifying, healing and helped Labour move on to become a more effective opposition.
The fact that he didn't, defensively argued the toss about the findings in fact, was for me another example of how his pursuit of the absolute ideal is, like yours, a hindrance to any effective politics in the real world. If he'd been the strong, intelligent leader of integrity that his momentum supporters liked to think he was, he'd have stuck his hand up and taken one for the team yesterday. [Post edited 30 Oct 2020 19:34]
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