| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? 19:44 - Nov 15 with 5708 views | wkj |
Looking at Bolton and Wigan, I think it is fair to say that Marcus Evans has certainly helped ITFC not financially capitulate. Don't get me wrong, I think he's done a very poor job with organisation and most of his upper management decisions, but for the sake of this exercise, lets assume his position at ITFC is untouchable.
As ITFC fan we've been really vocal on here about managers we don't like, whether its Keane for being horrible, Paul Jewell for being useless, Mick for being boring, Paul Hurst for being like Paul Jewell and Keane combined without the pedigree, and now Lambert for [insert reason here]
I am not saying anyone is wrong for feeling the way they do about the above, but what is the best solution?
A few truths to consider-
-A fair number of our key players in our team are not traditionally reliable for fitness, one injury can destroy a season
- We're not a blank chequebook. In addition to the new salary cap. Transfer fees are relatively sparse.
- We've got a fair number of youth players who should be starting their senior careers
- As polarising as they are, our two most experienced players are at the average retirement age for footballers. (Chambers 35, Skuse 34)
What manager out there could work with those scenarios, provide somewhat entertaining football, and get us back into the championship (and ultimately challenge for the playoffs within 2 seasons as that is a fair number what people would likely expect)
This isn't an exercise in calling people out, but rather how people think when trying to come up with an answer. I am genuinely interested to see where people think we realistically stand for managerial appointments. [Post edited 15 Nov 2020 19:48]
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 19:55 - Nov 15 with 3600 views | Dubtractor |
I'll answer this as I do any similar thread.
It isn't for the likes of you or I to research and understand all managerial options out there and to then make suggestions.
This is possibly the single biggest thing that Evans has got wrong - apart from Mick, not one of the appointments has had any care about it at all, they have either just been the man available (Lambert/Jewell), or there has evidently been precious little due diligence carried out (Hurst/Keane). In the case of Hurst remarkably so, as not only was he a turd of a human, but his record at Shrewsbury was based on grubbing out tight games, hardly what was needed as a change from Mick!
That we seem to have made every managerial decision without any real thought process is a massive failing and we are where we are because of it. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:02 - Nov 15 with 3579 views | Keaneish |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 19:55 - Nov 15 by Dubtractor |
I'll answer this as I do any similar thread.
It isn't for the likes of you or I to research and understand all managerial options out there and to then make suggestions.
This is possibly the single biggest thing that Evans has got wrong - apart from Mick, not one of the appointments has had any care about it at all, they have either just been the man available (Lambert/Jewell), or there has evidently been precious little due diligence carried out (Hurst/Keane). In the case of Hurst remarkably so, as not only was he a turd of a human, but his record at Shrewsbury was based on grubbing out tight games, hardly what was needed as a change from Mick!
That we seem to have made every managerial decision without any real thought process is a massive failing and we are where we are because of it. |
If rumours are to be believed, Harry Redknapp’s advice was his due diligence.... |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:08 - Nov 15 with 3566 views | Fixed_It |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 19:55 - Nov 15 by Dubtractor |
I'll answer this as I do any similar thread.
It isn't for the likes of you or I to research and understand all managerial options out there and to then make suggestions.
This is possibly the single biggest thing that Evans has got wrong - apart from Mick, not one of the appointments has had any care about it at all, they have either just been the man available (Lambert/Jewell), or there has evidently been precious little due diligence carried out (Hurst/Keane). In the case of Hurst remarkably so, as not only was he a turd of a human, but his record at Shrewsbury was based on grubbing out tight games, hardly what was needed as a change from Mick!
That we seem to have made every managerial decision without any real thought process is a massive failing and we are where we are because of it. |
But for all of the appointments you can see the thought process behind them - none were just random out-of-the-blue appointments without any logic. That's not to say they were good appointments, and hindsight would indicate that most of them weren't. ME might be richer than us, but that doesn't afford him the ability to predict hindsight. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:09 - Nov 15 with 3559 views | IpswichBoyBlue |
Somebody with Ipswich connections would be given a fair crack of the whip, I think. The problem any new manager has is our history. Anybody 50ish knows much better times and crave to have those days back. We were brought up on a style of football that whilst not full out attacking, a style that was pleasing on the eye. A team set up to win rather than not lose would be a step in the right direction. Dyer/Holland combo for me. No experience to speak of, but full on Ipswich connection and understand how the club is run. We have tried experience, so why not a totally untried pairing. |  | | |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:11 - Nov 15 with 3552 views | Dubtractor |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:08 - Nov 15 by Fixed_It |
But for all of the appointments you can see the thought process behind them - none were just random out-of-the-blue appointments without any logic. That's not to say they were good appointments, and hindsight would indicate that most of them weren't. ME might be richer than us, but that doesn't afford him the ability to predict hindsight. |
You can see the thought process from the perspective of a fan, not involved in the detail, but to be the man making those decisions and evidently not do adequate due diligence is just cr@p.
It isn't even hindsight to know that Keane is/was an @rsehole is it?! Or that Jewell hadn't done anything of note in the game for years. | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 21:58 - Nov 15 with 3406 views | N2_Blue |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:11 - Nov 15 by Dubtractor |
You can see the thought process from the perspective of a fan, not involved in the detail, but to be the man making those decisions and evidently not do adequate due diligence is just cr@p.
It isn't even hindsight to know that Keane is/was an @rsehole is it?! Or that Jewell hadn't done anything of note in the game for years. |
Roy Keane did have a win percentage of 42% and had won Championship in one attempt with a nothing special Sunderland team. I didn't like the man but it's too easy to apply hindsight and say he was ticking timebomb then. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 22:03 - Nov 15 with 3399 views | jayessess |
Any other manager in League One would be an upgrade on Lambert. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 22:18 - Nov 15 with 3381 views | Bramidan |
Get Burley back with Dyer or Holland as assistant.
Burley knew how to play footballs and get the best out of his players. |  | | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 08:33 - Nov 16 with 3208 views | Bluefish |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:08 - Nov 15 by Fixed_It |
But for all of the appointments you can see the thought process behind them - none were just random out-of-the-blue appointments without any logic. That's not to say they were good appointments, and hindsight would indicate that most of them weren't. ME might be richer than us, but that doesn't afford him the ability to predict hindsight. |
The only one that didn't was probably Lambert. keane was the famous face big name and big connections to repeat his Sunderland trick and take us up. I am still disgusted by the sacking of Jim but the lowest of our fans had started the protests so it was coming. keane was an absolute disaster but you could see what he was trying to do do appointing him.
Jewell was then seen as a proven replacement with promotions on his cv and a likeable chap to replace the absolute prick before him.
Mick was a masterstroke as we know but then the numbskulls demanded him out as well
When you have demanded a manager out for not being progressive enough and being past it then appointing a young up and coming manager that is manager of the year in league 1 is the sensible choice. Experienced a getting the best out of a smaller budget and relative success at multiple teams. The move made complete sense
The one that doesn't is Shambert, he had carved out a reputation of failure and was seen as past his last chance in management. Supporters from other clubs would have a mix of sympathy and bewilderment when you say who your manager is. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 08:41 - Nov 16 with 3201 views | HARRY10 |
It did not require much hindsight to know that appointing non football CEOs (Clegg/Milne) was not the brightest of ideas.
They oversaw a slow running down of the club, to where relegation was an almost inevitability
And now Lambert is supposed to turn those years of neglect and mismanagement around in a year or so. | | | |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 08:43 - Nov 16 with 3197 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 22:03 - Nov 15 by jayessess |
Any other manager in League One would be an upgrade on Lambert. |
Lambert or Steve Evans? I'll stick, thanks. [Post edited 16 Nov 2020 12:35]
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 08:54 - Nov 16 with 3176 views | Herbivore |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 20:08 - Nov 15 by Fixed_It |
But for all of the appointments you can see the thought process behind them - none were just random out-of-the-blue appointments without any logic. That's not to say they were good appointments, and hindsight would indicate that most of them weren't. ME might be richer than us, but that doesn't afford him the ability to predict hindsight. |
I've never quite understood the thought process behind Jewell or Lambert. Both were hacks with precious little recent success. The others were more understandable when you take hindsight out of the equation. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 08:55 - Nov 16 with 3175 views | GeoffSentence |
Why have you picked Bolton and Wigan as your comparison's?
Why not say Bristol City say, who have historically been smaller than us but bring in commercial income 4 times higher than ours (when we were both in the championship) and are now happily ticking along as a second tier club making a realistic push for the premier league.
Or say, that club which is most similar to our own, dare I say it, you know who I mean, which has managed do yo-yo to and from the premier league over the last decade even though the owner doesn't have a pot to pss in in football terms.
Yes, it is true, we could have done worse than Evans, but not much worse and those two are the only examples of it being worse for a club of this size. There are plenty more doing better. Luton FFS, Millwall, PNE, QPR, Reading, Barnsley, Millwall and Brentford are all clubs we should at least be competing with but who have left us behind in the last 18 years. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:23 - Nov 16 with 3135 views | itfcjoe |
I think that our most successful managers have generally been up and coming managers, who were given the opportunity to grow, whilst trying to play a brand of football that was easy on the eye, whilst having a team full of players who were all technically above average.
They generally carried themselves with a manner of class as well, and respected the football club totally
If you look at our managers Evans has appointed then you can see where we've gone away from that. Jim wasn't appointed by Evans, but is arguably the last Ipswich style manager, even if he didn't have the success that Mick had here.
Hurst arguably fitted that profile, but his record was never as good as had been made out - bar the incredible season with Shrewsbury. His sides didn't play the type of football fans wanted to see, but there was an element of the Emperor's New Clothing because he wasn't Mick with a big element of the fan base. The step up was too big for him, and he was the wrong choice and a big part of that was due to his success at Shrewsbury - i.e. we had to wait so long for him he should have been out of the running. We could have had Jack Ross in the door 7 weeks earlier. (Who did feel like an Ipswich manager)
Whilst both Joe Royle and Mick McCarthy did good jobs here, they were the steady hand which should have opened up for someone progressive to takeover.
There was talk in that big Athletic article about how there is almost an Academy Mafia who have too big a say in the club. If that was the case then, it hasn't changed now as they run so separately - Dyer back here is seen as a positive for the fans but sureloy makes that gap even between them even starker as not sure there is a great relationship between him and Lambert, or certainly wasn't when he left.
Lambert isn't the right man for what we want in the long term, and I think most would struggle to argue he is the right manfor what we want in the short term |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:48 - Nov 16 with 3076 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:23 - Nov 16 by itfcjoe |
I think that our most successful managers have generally been up and coming managers, who were given the opportunity to grow, whilst trying to play a brand of football that was easy on the eye, whilst having a team full of players who were all technically above average.
They generally carried themselves with a manner of class as well, and respected the football club totally
If you look at our managers Evans has appointed then you can see where we've gone away from that. Jim wasn't appointed by Evans, but is arguably the last Ipswich style manager, even if he didn't have the success that Mick had here.
Hurst arguably fitted that profile, but his record was never as good as had been made out - bar the incredible season with Shrewsbury. His sides didn't play the type of football fans wanted to see, but there was an element of the Emperor's New Clothing because he wasn't Mick with a big element of the fan base. The step up was too big for him, and he was the wrong choice and a big part of that was due to his success at Shrewsbury - i.e. we had to wait so long for him he should have been out of the running. We could have had Jack Ross in the door 7 weeks earlier. (Who did feel like an Ipswich manager)
Whilst both Joe Royle and Mick McCarthy did good jobs here, they were the steady hand which should have opened up for someone progressive to takeover.
There was talk in that big Athletic article about how there is almost an Academy Mafia who have too big a say in the club. If that was the case then, it hasn't changed now as they run so separately - Dyer back here is seen as a positive for the fans but sureloy makes that gap even between them even starker as not sure there is a great relationship between him and Lambert, or certainly wasn't when he left.
Lambert isn't the right man for what we want in the long term, and I think most would struggle to argue he is the right manfor what we want in the short term |
Agree. And re your first paragraph, that they had players that were technically above average was no coincidence. They were good coaches and/or had a strong coaching team around them and made players better.
I think that is what we need more than anything at the moment - we clearly aren't in the position to buy ready made articles so we have to be able to maximise what we do have. IF we were to go up, that'll become even more important. | | | |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:52 - Nov 16 with 3069 views | SouperJim |
I keep seeing reference to what Lambert has to work with in derogatory terms. If we actually look at the players at his disposal:-
Youngsters - Woolfenden, Lankester, Bishop, Downes, Dozzell, McGuiness (loan), Bennetts (loan)
Seven incredibly talented young players who are amongst the best in the division and are attracting suitors much higher up the pyramid.
Proven Pros - Edwards, Jackson, Norwood, Nolan
All have proven themselves more than capable at this level and most sides in league one would snap your arm off to have them.
Experienced old heads - Ward, Chambers, Skuse, Judge, Sears, Huws
An absolute wealth of experience here, hundreds of appearances at a higher level and proven leadership qualities
This is not an exhaustive run-down, just those who for me stand out as more than capable at this level. We then have Holy, Hawkins, Nsiala, Wilson, Donacien, even Kenlock who are at least acceptable squad filler. KVY to come back, Nydam to come back and push on, Dobra and El Miz who look like ones for the future, etc.
In short, I just simply don't buy the idea that Lambert is working with panel beaters. He's not. League One is not exactly dripping with quality and yet we have a squad of players with plenty to shout about, a fair mixture of youth and experience and some really exciting talent who are nailed on to go on to bigger things than ITFC.
A decent coach and manager should be able to fashion this group of players into a team capable of winning this division. It's a simple as that. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:56 - Nov 16 with 3065 views | itfcjoe |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:48 - Nov 16 by tractorboy1978 |
Agree. And re your first paragraph, that they had players that were technically above average was no coincidence. They were good coaches and/or had a strong coaching team around them and made players better.
I think that is what we need more than anything at the moment - we clearly aren't in the position to buy ready made articles so we have to be able to maximise what we do have. IF we were to go up, that'll become even more important. |
I listened to the Matt Holland EADT podcast yesterdya, and he said that no manager improved him as much as Burley, and no manager spent the time with him individually trying to improve him as a player
On the Wembley YT documentary, Johnno says about Burley that training was the same thing every week, and felt boring, but now he looks back and sees that GB was ahead of his time.
It's that coaching, that high performance culture. I can't speak for all the players, but the ones who seem to stay back after training now, and always want a ball at their feet are Jack Lankester and Brett McGavin.
It's what you hear from the Class of 92, and more locally the year group with Ambrose, Bent, Westlake, Richards, and a few other very good players who didn't make it here were always honing their skills. Being a similar age as them, if they weren't at the training ground hitting ball after ball, they were playing on the fields round Kesgrave and Martlesham pushing each other on and just playing with whoever was there
We've gone away from having technical players, where everyone is comfortable on the ball | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:00 - Nov 16 with 3055 views | HARRY10 |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 09:52 - Nov 16 by SouperJim |
I keep seeing reference to what Lambert has to work with in derogatory terms. If we actually look at the players at his disposal:-
Youngsters - Woolfenden, Lankester, Bishop, Downes, Dozzell, McGuiness (loan), Bennetts (loan)
Seven incredibly talented young players who are amongst the best in the division and are attracting suitors much higher up the pyramid.
Proven Pros - Edwards, Jackson, Norwood, Nolan
All have proven themselves more than capable at this level and most sides in league one would snap your arm off to have them.
Experienced old heads - Ward, Chambers, Skuse, Judge, Sears, Huws
An absolute wealth of experience here, hundreds of appearances at a higher level and proven leadership qualities
This is not an exhaustive run-down, just those who for me stand out as more than capable at this level. We then have Holy, Hawkins, Nsiala, Wilson, Donacien, even Kenlock who are at least acceptable squad filler. KVY to come back, Nydam to come back and push on, Dobra and El Miz who look like ones for the future, etc.
In short, I just simply don't buy the idea that Lambert is working with panel beaters. He's not. League One is not exactly dripping with quality and yet we have a squad of players with plenty to shout about, a fair mixture of youth and experience and some really exciting talent who are nailed on to go on to bigger things than ITFC.
A decent coach and manager should be able to fashion this group of players into a team capable of winning this division. It's a simple as that. |
and yet we are only second
what a failure | | | |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:03 - Nov 16 with 3042 views | Herbivore |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:00 - Nov 16 by HARRY10 |
and yet we are only second
what a failure |
We're third now as it goes, and we've lost three of our last five and look incapable of beating the better sides in this league. We finished 11th in the third division under this same manager last season. If you still can't see that he's hopeless I'm not sure what further evidence you'd need. | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:08 - Nov 16 with 3030 views | SouperJim |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:00 - Nov 16 by HARRY10 |
and yet we are only second
what a failure |
We're third, not wanting to split hairs. The jury is still out for me, but Lambert has been here two years now, it really shouldn't be. The signs of progress should be much clearer than they are. Three things worry me:-
1) We totally collapsed last season and ended up 11th
2) We've lost 5 of our last 7 games
3) Our record against sides in the top 10 in the table remains incredibly poor | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:13 - Nov 16 with 3021 views | DanTheMan |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:00 - Nov 16 by HARRY10 |
and yet we are only second
what a failure |
*third in league one. |  |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:20 - Nov 16 with 3001 views | Herbivore |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:13 - Nov 16 by DanTheMan |
*third in league one. |
*third in League 1 for now but 12th in the form table, which doesn't auger well given how last season panned out. | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:26 - Nov 16 with 2988 views | HARRY10 |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:13 - Nov 16 by DanTheMan |
*third in league one. |
oops, shows how much I have been keeping up
happy to be corrected, though | | | |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 11:08 - Nov 16 with 2932 views | DanTheMan |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 10:20 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
*third in League 1 for now but 12th in the form table, which doesn't auger well given how last season panned out. |
I've resigned myself to thinking that he will be gone in time for the January transfer window, leaving us with yet another season wasted, although with the stakes being considerably higher than when we were just bouncing around mid table in the Championship.
Hooray. | |
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| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 11:48 - Nov 16 with 2898 views | Herbivore |
| Every ITFC manager OUT! So what's the answer then? on 11:08 - Nov 16 by DanTheMan |
I've resigned myself to thinking that he will be gone in time for the January transfer window, leaving us with yet another season wasted, although with the stakes being considerably higher than when we were just bouncing around mid table in the Championship.
Hooray. |
I still can't understand why Evans didn't pull the trigger during lockdown. Taking us to relegation and following it up with 11th in League 1 is the most obvious sacking pyure likely to see, and yet he dithered until suddenly the season was upon us and decided to give him another go. Utterly bizarre. Once it was confirmed the season wasn't restarting he should have gone. | |
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