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I still don’t think we’re any further away from a deal than we were yesterday. It’s all posturing before a deal is announced next week which both sides will celebrate as a success.
Johnson’s presented this straw man to make it look like he’s got something away when he brings it back to his backbenchers.
I think a no deal is incredibly unlikely, we wouldn’t still be negotiating at this stage if it wasn’t achievable.
Hence why he's dashed over there at the last minute, as he realises what a complete clusterfcuk is about to hit us.
The problem with Johnson is that he really is not that bright - so covers up by bluster and bluff, rather than being on top of his brief. Hence his pulling out his shirt or engaging in some pantomime act to make him appear a 'character'
This means all too often he spouts anything that will win the moment, and to hell with the consequences,
He here is (pssed) spouting nonsense about there not being checks on the GB/NI border, when even I knew there would have to be
I still don’t think we’re any further away from a deal than we were yesterday. It’s all posturing before a deal is announced next week which both sides will celebrate as a success.
Johnson’s presented this straw man to make it look like he’s got something away when he brings it back to his backbenchers.
I think a no deal is incredibly unlikely, we wouldn’t still be negotiating at this stage if it wasn’t achievable.
I wish I shared your confidence. Johnson is definitely reckless and incompetent enough to let us leave without a deal and the EU, whilst they want a deal, don't need one at any cost. I think no deal is a live possibility as it stands, though I do think there is still some hope a deal might materialise.
I would suggest it is you who is either poorly informed or dishonest. And given the track record of you both the clip below will remove any doubt on that matter
" Speaking at a Nissan factory in the North East of England alongside former Labour MP Gisela Stuart, he said: "It's absolutely vital we protect supply chains, we protect Nissan motors, and we make sure people continue to invest in our country. And they will.
"What I think businesses large and small want to see is certainty about the arrangements we can deliver.
"And the thing about the deal we've got ready-to-go is it does protect the supply chains, it keeps them intact, it makes sure we have complete equivalence when it comes to our standards, our industrial requirements and all the rest of it.
"So as we come out, it's all protected."
[Post edited 10 Dec 2020 11:25]
I wouldn’t necessarily say GB is either of those things. But GB is an ex-politician, and understands how politicians talk, and in my view, sometimes leans towards support for political-speak.
E.g. GB supported the use of the Bus NHS slogan as being fair use of language.
Similarly in your quote below it says “So as we come out, its’s all protected”.
As we came out of the EU, last year, supply chains were protected.
Just with the NHS Bus quote, it is people that are at fault if they think that slogan meant that the Tories would spend 350 Million on the NHS every week.
Anyone believing that supply chains would be protected past the transition period, were at fault, for not understanding what was said.
Just like Dominic Raab, this morning, he was saying, no, there won’t be new paper work between GB and NI, just more complex paper work for process that have paper work already. So they weren’t really lying when they said no new paper work.
Are politicians being dishonest, when they use such language?
I think they are, since they are trying to create an false impression, and they are lying through omission.
Career political types will say that is just clever campaigning.
But I think we are now all aware what happens when you have a country run by “clever” campaigners.
I would suggest the idiots weren’t the ones that didn’t really quite get what the NHS slogan meant, or the over-ready deal meant, it was the people that supported and advocated for that bunch of charlatans.
We're getting what we voted for. Those who voted for it will soon realise how much better life will be for them.
Johnson has failed the country. Even if Brexit is best for Britain, we're now going into it with our pants down and coming messaged of "Be strong, we're in this together". Pandemic or not, Johnson's cabinet have had plenty of time to make something formal and functional - and now we all suffer, including the milkshake gang, unless something happens in the 13th hour.
I wouldn’t necessarily say GB is either of those things. But GB is an ex-politician, and understands how politicians talk, and in my view, sometimes leans towards support for political-speak.
E.g. GB supported the use of the Bus NHS slogan as being fair use of language.
Similarly in your quote below it says “So as we come out, its’s all protected”.
As we came out of the EU, last year, supply chains were protected.
Just with the NHS Bus quote, it is people that are at fault if they think that slogan meant that the Tories would spend 350 Million on the NHS every week.
Anyone believing that supply chains would be protected past the transition period, were at fault, for not understanding what was said.
Just like Dominic Raab, this morning, he was saying, no, there won’t be new paper work between GB and NI, just more complex paper work for process that have paper work already. So they weren’t really lying when they said no new paper work.
Are politicians being dishonest, when they use such language?
I think they are, since they are trying to create an false impression, and they are lying through omission.
Career political types will say that is just clever campaigning.
But I think we are now all aware what happens when you have a country run by “clever” campaigners.
I would suggest the idiots weren’t the ones that didn’t really quite get what the NHS slogan meant, or the over-ready deal meant, it was the people that supported and advocated for that bunch of charlatans.
It is nothing but deceptive. They are representatives of the people, so they should communicate clearly with those they represent.
Politics is archaic and convoluted, yes the HOC is great pantomime, but I am all for binning tradition and seeing them talk in real language rather than "Honourable this" and "Honourable that" - we'd get more done. (And by that, I mean get more lies to entertain ourselves with)
I still don’t think we’re any further away from a deal than we were yesterday. It’s all posturing before a deal is announced next week which both sides will celebrate as a success.
Johnson’s presented this straw man to make it look like he’s got something away when he brings it back to his backbenchers.
I think a no deal is incredibly unlikely, we wouldn’t still be negotiating at this stage if it wasn’t achievable.
Johnson has backed himself into a corner over this.
If the UK wants to trade as near as possible on the deal it had then a fundamental part will be keeping to the standards the EU sets. Which will greatly hamper the ability of the UK to cut workers rights, safety at work, food hygiene standards etc
The very reason the very wealthy ran and paid for the Leave campaign
Johnson has backed himself into a corner over this.
If the UK wants to trade as near as possible on the deal it had then a fundamental part will be keeping to the standards the EU sets. Which will greatly hamper the ability of the UK to cut workers rights, safety at work, food hygiene standards etc
The very reason the very wealthy ran and paid for the Leave campaign
Yeah - no idea whether he will choose to f*ck over the country or f*ck over the brexity/ERG lot, but Johnson has skilfully manoeuvred himself and the country into an impossible position which can kicking and false promises can't solve.
In guessing which way it will go, worth remembering how rarely the Conservative party puts the country ahead of party interests. Either way, a really extraordinary failure of statecraft which people will study for years.
I wish I shared your confidence. Johnson is definitely reckless and incompetent enough to let us leave without a deal and the EU, whilst they want a deal, don't need one at any cost. I think no deal is a live possibility as it stands, though I do think there is still some hope a deal might materialise.
I think it's getting late for brinkmanship & posturing. Fishing is a red herring - I'm sure a gradual compromise can be agreed. However, the fundamental sticking point is how much the UK has to follow EU rules after leaving. The EU must know that a deal whereby Britain follows most of the EU rules is political suicide for Boris & the Tories, so are they trying to push the UK into a no-deal (bad for both sides, but far riskier for Britain) or are they trying to bully him into agreeing an unacceptable deal which the UK refuses to ratify to remaining is back on the table (after another General Election).
I think it's getting late for brinkmanship & posturing. Fishing is a red herring - I'm sure a gradual compromise can be agreed. However, the fundamental sticking point is how much the UK has to follow EU rules after leaving. The EU must know that a deal whereby Britain follows most of the EU rules is political suicide for Boris & the Tories, so are they trying to push the UK into a no-deal (bad for both sides, but far riskier for Britain) or are they trying to bully him into agreeing an unacceptable deal which the UK refuses to ratify to remaining is back on the table (after another General Election).
Agree. Not agreeing a deal because of fishing would be like pulling out of a house purchase because the grass hasn't been cut. Bafflingly irrelevant but exactly the type of thing Tories get all doughy eyed over.
I think it's getting late for brinkmanship & posturing. Fishing is a red herring - I'm sure a gradual compromise can be agreed. However, the fundamental sticking point is how much the UK has to follow EU rules after leaving. The EU must know that a deal whereby Britain follows most of the EU rules is political suicide for Boris & the Tories, so are they trying to push the UK into a no-deal (bad for both sides, but far riskier for Britain) or are they trying to bully him into agreeing an unacceptable deal which the UK refuses to ratify to remaining is back on the table (after another General Election).
Nope.
The EU is merely sticking by what it said BEFORE the referendum, and what Johnson agreed would be the case during the last GE
The moral here is do not make promises you know you cannot keep
As any ST holder at PR knows ground regulations can change. They also know that if they don't agree with a future change they have the option of accepting it or leaving. There is never going to be an option where that change does not apply only to them.
That is the same with the EU. The UK knew all this right from the start, but a mentality of "they need us more than we need them" blinded voters into thinking the EU would back down on one of its core principles.
The fat fraud now finds where all his lies have finally taken him
I think it's getting late for brinkmanship & posturing. Fishing is a red herring - I'm sure a gradual compromise can be agreed. However, the fundamental sticking point is how much the UK has to follow EU rules after leaving. The EU must know that a deal whereby Britain follows most of the EU rules is political suicide for Boris & the Tories, so are they trying to push the UK into a no-deal (bad for both sides, but far riskier for Britain) or are they trying to bully him into agreeing an unacceptable deal which the UK refuses to ratify to remaining is back on the table (after another General Election).
The EU allowing us to diverge as much as we want from rules they adopt is harmful to the single market, so of course they aren't going to accept it. It's not that they want no deal, but they don't see why they should compromise the integrity of the single market to get a deal when it was us that decided we wanted to leave in the first place. When our position is that we want to have our cake and eat it having been the sole instigators of us leaving, you can rather understand why the EU would prioritise the single market over our concerns about sovereignty. It seems to have turned out that we don't actually hold all the cards after all, and the EU seem to have a pretty strong hand.
Johnson has backed himself into a corner over this.
If the UK wants to trade as near as possible on the deal it had then a fundamental part will be keeping to the standards the EU sets. Which will greatly hamper the ability of the UK to cut workers rights, safety at work, food hygiene standards etc
The very reason the very wealthy ran and paid for the Leave campaign
And one of the main reasons some of us voted Remain, particularly re environmental standards. So sad the Remain campaign failed to keep driving this home.
Yes, those level playing conditions were one of the key points in the WA that they've spent the year trying to get out of and are still one of the main 3 sticking points. They behaved the same with the Irish border problem too, but I think that was resolved a few weeks ago and we've finally agreed to honour what we said we'd do in the WA>
It's classic obfuscation from this shameless government. Get everyone arguing over the meaning of meaningless catchphrase, rather than looking at the content. It's like being governed by 6 year olds (possibly harsh on 6 year olds).
The EU allowing us to diverge as much as we want from rules they adopt is harmful to the single market, so of course they aren't going to accept it. It's not that they want no deal, but they don't see why they should compromise the integrity of the single market to get a deal when it was us that decided we wanted to leave in the first place. When our position is that we want to have our cake and eat it having been the sole instigators of us leaving, you can rather understand why the EU would prioritise the single market over our concerns about sovereignty. It seems to have turned out that we don't actually hold all the cards after all, and the EU seem to have a pretty strong hand.
I'm just wondering if the EU really does hold all the cards.
Take the fishing thing - it feels like that matters more to Macron than it does to us.
I also wonder if our population is better prepared for the chaos? We’ll undoubtedly get more f'cked than them, but at least “we” voted for it.
With the sticking to their rules thing in mind, perhaps they’re more vulnerable than we realise, especially with the brexiters frothing, ready to take it for Queen and country… rule Britannia…
Don’t get me wrong — I hate all this and wish it wasn’t happening — just not sure it’s as cut and dried as we remainers think.
...be gentle!
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
I'm just wondering if the EU really does hold all the cards.
Take the fishing thing - it feels like that matters more to Macron than it does to us.
I also wonder if our population is better prepared for the chaos? We’ll undoubtedly get more f'cked than them, but at least “we” voted for it.
With the sticking to their rules thing in mind, perhaps they’re more vulnerable than we realise, especially with the brexiters frothing, ready to take it for Queen and country… rule Britannia…
Don’t get me wrong — I hate all this and wish it wasn’t happening — just not sure it’s as cut and dried as we remainers think.
...be gentle!
We'll have loads of magic sovereignty beans to eat if things get tight as well.
We'll have loads of magic sovereignty beans to eat if things get tight as well.
With you mr, just we're not Brexiters innit - soverignty will keep a lot happy. On that point, no deal will ever please some, so perhaps thats what has to happen for Boris to stay in charge.
The words of simpleton no doubt, but none of this is rational.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
We'll have loads of magic sovereignty beans to eat if things get tight as well.
I can Ulla’s point.
Another point worth considering is this possible, or proposed I, m not sure which, ban on travel from UK to EU. Won’t this result in the EU breaking the good Friday agreement?
I'm just wondering if the EU really does hold all the cards.
Take the fishing thing - it feels like that matters more to Macron than it does to us.
I also wonder if our population is better prepared for the chaos? We’ll undoubtedly get more f'cked than them, but at least “we” voted for it.
With the sticking to their rules thing in mind, perhaps they’re more vulnerable than we realise, especially with the brexiters frothing, ready to take it for Queen and country… rule Britannia…
Don’t get me wrong — I hate all this and wish it wasn’t happening — just not sure it’s as cut and dried as we remainers think.
...be gentle!
The French bought a lot of our fishing quotas that we sold off and they don't want to lose them without getting anything back in return - perfectly sensible and logical and we would do exactly the same if the situations were reversed
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
The French bought a lot of our fishing quotas that we sold off and they don't want to lose them without getting anything back in return - perfectly sensible and logical and we would do exactly the same if the situations were reversed
Exactly, also, it's going to take a few years before our fisherman can get back up to levels needed to deal with demand. So we will be shooting ourselves in the foot in the short, medium and long term.
Still, keeps Nige happy as this is his most concerning aspect, the tw&t.
I'm just wondering if the EU really does hold all the cards.
Take the fishing thing - it feels like that matters more to Macron than it does to us.
I also wonder if our population is better prepared for the chaos? We’ll undoubtedly get more f'cked than them, but at least “we” voted for it.
With the sticking to their rules thing in mind, perhaps they’re more vulnerable than we realise, especially with the brexiters frothing, ready to take it for Queen and country… rule Britannia…
Don’t get me wrong — I hate all this and wish it wasn’t happening — just not sure it’s as cut and dried as we remainers think.
...be gentle!
If you’ll pardon the pun, I think fishing rights is a bit of a red herring, and something that has now become so symbolic that it means more for either side by way of public sentiment than it perhaps ever will on paper. That bit is easier to resolve, and I think the EU might have left that on the table with a view to it being their sacrificial lamb in the negotiation. That bit is easier to resolve.
The crux of the roadblock is the level playing field that the EU want with the UK post Brexit, not something insisted upon to this extent with other nations who have free trade agreements with the EU, but still a fundamental principle in all cases. They argue the size of the UK market and geographical proximity makes it a necessary requirement to have a more considered agreement in this respect. I would imagine the big fear is the very real possibility of the UK positioning itself as a tax haven of Western Europe. This comes as no surprise though, it’s the issue has dominated the trade talks right from the start.
It’s understandable too, ultimately the EU want to protect the competitiveness of the EU block moving forward and ensure the UK can’t undercut down the line by way of workers rights / wage & taxes etc to become more compelling a proposition for businesses. This of course doesn’t deliver the regaining of sovereignty that we’ve all been promised. I think there’s a pathway to a compromise position that will be found though. To your point, no deal suits neither party, certainly in the short term.
Right, I’ll start with the disclaimer that Johnson is a liar and a charlatan, a c*nt, the current government is a shambles etc, etc, but are you aware that his “oven ready deal” was the withdrawal agreement, which was passed by parliament after the last election and enabled us to leave the EU on the 31st of January this year, and not the trade deal that is currently being negotiated?
It was frustrating listening to Starmer confusing the two yesterday which suggested he is either poorly informed or dishonest.
[Post edited 10 Dec 2020 7:40]
To add to the general thread, here's another claim:
I'm just wondering if the EU really does hold all the cards.
Take the fishing thing - it feels like that matters more to Macron than it does to us.
I also wonder if our population is better prepared for the chaos? We’ll undoubtedly get more f'cked than them, but at least “we” voted for it.
With the sticking to their rules thing in mind, perhaps they’re more vulnerable than we realise, especially with the brexiters frothing, ready to take it for Queen and country… rule Britannia…
Don’t get me wrong — I hate all this and wish it wasn’t happening — just not sure it’s as cut and dried as we remainers think.
...be gentle!
You're forgetting other countries have domestic politics and voters to pander too though. The EU has also got far more of the necessary border infrastructure in place than the UK has and has a smaller proportion of it's trade with the UK than the UK has with the EU.
The EU will be worse off if there is no deal, Ireland especially, but there is one country that will really suffer and it's this one.
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