| If you’re London based 14:26 - Dec 19 with 31731 views | clive_baker |
And planning to spend Christmas elsewhere, I would go now. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 12:24 - Dec 21 with 3465 views | clive_baker |
| If you’re London based on 11:40 - Dec 21 by Ace_High1 |
It is about communication (clear and decisive) and leadership (fronting up and setting an example). It is actually very easy to get right regardless of the issue (Brexit/Covid/Terrorism).
It is a joke we are so poor at this, forget politics and which side you support, we just need some decent leadership. There must be some normal, successful really people out there who could do the job than the jokers like Johnson, May, Corbyn etc. |
Quite.
Ultimately leadership is about delivering results, it's not necessarily about being popular. Johnson is happy to dismiss KS as captain hindsight, but he's demonstrated no foresight or decisiveness. Johnson seems to delay every decision until we're presented with 2 dire options at the 11th hour and presents the least bad option as the preferable route forward.
As you say it's basics in terms of communication. Putting the 20k number on this thing back in Feb / March was ludicrous when it was all so uncertain. No country has achieved anything like that. If there's uncertainty, say it's uncertain. Making promises and constant U turns is utterly ridiculous, the whole thing has been mismanaged spectacularly. | |
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| If you’re London based on 13:00 - Dec 21 with 3407 views | Mookamoo |
| If you’re London based on 12:24 - Dec 21 by clive_baker |
Quite.
Ultimately leadership is about delivering results, it's not necessarily about being popular. Johnson is happy to dismiss KS as captain hindsight, but he's demonstrated no foresight or decisiveness. Johnson seems to delay every decision until we're presented with 2 dire options at the 11th hour and presents the least bad option as the preferable route forward.
As you say it's basics in terms of communication. Putting the 20k number on this thing back in Feb / March was ludicrous when it was all so uncertain. No country has achieved anything like that. If there's uncertainty, say it's uncertain. Making promises and constant U turns is utterly ridiculous, the whole thing has been mismanaged spectacularly. |
The move by Labour to elect Starmer and then the US with Biden means we are moving back towards a bland, safe political leader. Hope fully this will leave space for competent, well adjusted individuals to get their voices heard. Its all been too noisy.
Difficult to believe how the Tories are still ahead.
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| If you’re London based on 13:06 - Dec 21 with 3403 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| If you’re London based on 12:24 - Dec 21 by clive_baker |
Quite.
Ultimately leadership is about delivering results, it's not necessarily about being popular. Johnson is happy to dismiss KS as captain hindsight, but he's demonstrated no foresight or decisiveness. Johnson seems to delay every decision until we're presented with 2 dire options at the 11th hour and presents the least bad option as the preferable route forward.
As you say it's basics in terms of communication. Putting the 20k number on this thing back in Feb / March was ludicrous when it was all so uncertain. No country has achieved anything like that. If there's uncertainty, say it's uncertain. Making promises and constant U turns is utterly ridiculous, the whole thing has been mismanaged spectacularly. |
And, in the early days, there was a lot of goodwill by the public. Most were prepared to put up with the inconveniences.
Then we had the Cummings debacle. Johnson should have sacked Cummings on the spot but, instead, he backed Cummings' absurd lies and, at a stroke, much of the goodwill was gone.
We were no longer 'all in it together'. Johnson's little cabal of Westminster elite were above the fray and not subject to the same rules as the rest of us. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 13:16 - Dec 21 with 3375 views | StokieBlue |
| If you’re London based on 13:06 - Dec 21 by Tangledupin_Blue |
And, in the early days, there was a lot of goodwill by the public. Most were prepared to put up with the inconveniences.
Then we had the Cummings debacle. Johnson should have sacked Cummings on the spot but, instead, he backed Cummings' absurd lies and, at a stroke, much of the goodwill was gone.
We were no longer 'all in it together'. Johnson's little cabal of Westminster elite were above the fray and not subject to the same rules as the rest of us. |
Whilst there is no doubt that is all true, surely there has to be a time when the "but Cummings" argument stops and people start taking some personal responsibility despite the poorness of the government?
People aren't going to get away from restrictions in the long term by ignoring them in the short term. It's only going to make everything stretch out even longer.
SB |  | | |
| If you’re London based on 13:20 - Dec 21 with 3364 views | Radlett_blue |
| If you’re London based on 13:16 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Whilst there is no doubt that is all true, surely there has to be a time when the "but Cummings" argument stops and people start taking some personal responsibility despite the poorness of the government?
People aren't going to get away from restrictions in the long term by ignoring them in the short term. It's only going to make everything stretch out even longer.
SB |
I know plenty of people around me who are planning on breaking the Tier 4 regulations over Christmas. I doubt this is isolated so a substantial minority are likely to do the same. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 13:22 - Dec 21 with 3352 views | vapour_trail |
| If you’re London based on 13:20 - Dec 21 by Radlett_blue |
I know plenty of people around me who are planning on breaking the Tier 4 regulations over Christmas. I doubt this is isolated so a substantial minority are likely to do the same. |
I’m genuinely unaware of anybody I know who is planning to do this, and most people I’ve heard from or spoken to over the past couple of days are tier 4. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 13:23 - Dec 21 with 3343 views | vapour_trail |
| If you’re London based on 13:16 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Whilst there is no doubt that is all true, surely there has to be a time when the "but Cummings" argument stops and people start taking some personal responsibility despite the poorness of the government?
People aren't going to get away from restrictions in the long term by ignoring them in the short term. It's only going to make everything stretch out even longer.
SB |
People have been taking personal responsibility for nine months. | |
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| If you’re London based on 13:25 - Dec 21 with 3339 views | StokieBlue |
| If you’re London based on 13:20 - Dec 21 by Radlett_blue |
I know plenty of people around me who are planning on breaking the Tier 4 regulations over Christmas. I doubt this is isolated so a substantial minority are likely to do the same. |
I'm sure these people will be the same people who complain when we are in a strict 3 month lockdown after Christmas or when other things they want to do are restricted.
I am sure they have internally justified it to themselves but that doesn't mean they aren't breaking rules designed to minimise the spread and save lives.
Being angry at an incompetent government isn't an excuse to do what you want.
SB | | | |
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| If you’re London based on 13:26 - Dec 21 with 3337 views | StokieBlue |
| If you’re London based on 13:23 - Dec 21 by vapour_trail |
People have been taking personal responsibility for nine months. |
My post was aimed in response to the "goodwill" point which I led to mean that because it's gone people are less likely to follow the rules.
Some people have taken personal responsibility (I would say the vast majority). Others have continually trotted out the "But Cummings" excuse to do what they like. It's an excuse I find very annoying.
As my mum used to say, if your friend jumps off the Orwell bridge are you going to do that too?
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 13:28]
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| If you’re London based on 13:29 - Dec 21 with 3319 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| If you’re London based on 13:16 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Whilst there is no doubt that is all true, surely there has to be a time when the "but Cummings" argument stops and people start taking some personal responsibility despite the poorness of the government?
People aren't going to get away from restrictions in the long term by ignoring them in the short term. It's only going to make everything stretch out even longer.
SB |
You and I and maybe a majority of people may well be able to move on but the Cummings incident still rankles with many. And some of them use it as an excuse to ignore the precautions. | |
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| If you’re London based on 13:32 - Dec 21 with 3311 views | footers |
| If you’re London based on 13:29 - Dec 21 by Tangledupin_Blue |
You and I and maybe a majority of people may well be able to move on but the Cummings incident still rankles with many. And some of them use it as an excuse to ignore the precautions. |
You don't even need Cummings as an excuse when you have a national newspaper (I'm sure you know which one) pushing the narrative that the virus has 99% survival rates, there are plenty of hospital beds available and that we were in a much worse position than two years ago. That was just one story this morning so I can easily see how people feel justified in doing what they like if that's where they're getting their info. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 13:43 - Dec 21 with 3292 views | SpruceMoose |
| If you’re London based on 13:23 - Dec 21 by vapour_trail |
People have been taking personal responsibility for nine months. |
Indeed, plenty have. But plenty haven't. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If you’re London based on 13:47 - Dec 21 with 3275 views | Funge |
| If you’re London based on 13:26 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
My post was aimed in response to the "goodwill" point which I led to mean that because it's gone people are less likely to follow the rules.
Some people have taken personal responsibility (I would say the vast majority). Others have continually trotted out the "But Cummings" excuse to do what they like. It's an excuse I find very annoying.
As my mum used to say, if your friend jumps off the Orwell bridge are you going to do that too?
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 13:28]
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I'm with VT on this, though.
We elect a government to govern. To lay down legislation, to enforce that legislation, and to enact punishment upon those who break that legislation.
I am unaware of anyone in any of my social circles (popular butterfly that I am), who intends on breaking the current Tier 4 tier rules.
Turning round, and repeatedly levelling accusations of selfishness at those who grow ever wearier of these piss-poor U-turns, from this manure heap of a government, all of which are apparently concocted on a whim, is missing the point. *
If the vast majority of us are taking personal responsibility/ following the rules, as you state, then frankly I am unsure where the issue is.
As if anyone needed reminding, the hospitality trade is on its knees, the arts sector on its stomach.. There are restaurants all over the country, with fridges full of food today, that will literally be binned, as this government has led that particular sector royally up the garden path, before rogering them sideways. It's a fcking outrage, particularly if the rumours relating to Hancock knowing about this 3 days earlier than broadcast, are true.
These sectors are following the 'rules', at huge fiscal and mental cost, and to what end?
Why are we directing our ire at one another? The main culprit presents himself daily, brazen, with two fingers raised directly in front of us, complete with his entourage of scumbags in tow (I'm looking at you, Patel, JRM and Gove).
This has been the toughest year for all of us, mentally, ever. A dear friend of mine has lost his mind to this (beyond the point of repair, I fear), and I have known customers that have died to this illness.
We have all gone a little nuts, I propose. Some of us are holding it together; some of us less so.
In summary, I'm not sure that constantly pointing the finger at our peers, and accusing them of selfishness, is particularly helpful at this point. Very much the 'divide and conquer' strategy that Johnson must welcome.
* I am not levelling this accusation in its full entirety at you, for the sake of good order. |  | | |
| If you’re London based on 13:48 - Dec 21 with 3267 views | Funge |
| If you’re London based on 13:43 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose |
Indeed, plenty have. But plenty haven't. |
I simply disagree.
Far more have followed the rules, than haven't.
Far more. | | | |
| If you’re London based on 13:51 - Dec 21 with 3256 views | SpruceMoose |
| If you’re London based on 13:32 - Dec 21 by footers |
You don't even need Cummings as an excuse when you have a national newspaper (I'm sure you know which one) pushing the narrative that the virus has 99% survival rates, there are plenty of hospital beds available and that we were in a much worse position than two years ago. That was just one story this morning so I can easily see how people feel justified in doing what they like if that's where they're getting their info. |
The last ten years has showed us that many people in the UK (and in other countries) don't really do detail and fact. What they do really well is memorise and parrot incorrect tabloid headlines, regurgitating them whenever possible spreading them throughout their community.
Our politicians have obviously noticed this and have responded in kind. We are governed by soundbite, informed by off the cuff remark. Difficult news is glossed over or flat out denied until the point comes when reality steps in.
So I agree with you, under these conditions I can quite imagine how easily someone could convince themselves that a sunny Spanish beach holiday in the middle of a pandemic is a perfectly sensible idea if they really wanted to believe that. [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:01]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If you’re London based on 13:54 - Dec 21 with 3243 views | SpruceMoose |
| If you’re London based on 13:48 - Dec 21 by Funge |
I simply disagree.
Far more have followed the rules, than haven't.
Far more. |
I said plenty. I didn't once say it was a majority of people doing it. In a pandemic I think even 10% of people (as an example) not following the rules would qualify as 'plenty' considering the havoc they can and have caused.
Plenty of people (not a majority) have either not followed the rules, or have flexed them as they see fit. Plenty of people have also offloaded their common sense and ability to think for themselves onto an inept government despite usually being hell bent on ignoring guidance from authorities. That has impacted the majority of people who have tried to do the right thing.
I really don't see how you can disagree with that, unless you genuinely believe that nobody has broken or bent the rules. [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:03]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If you’re London based on 13:57 - Dec 21 with 3219 views | 26_Paz |
| If you’re London based on 13:51 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose |
The last ten years has showed us that many people in the UK (and in other countries) don't really do detail and fact. What they do really well is memorise and parrot incorrect tabloid headlines, regurgitating them whenever possible spreading them throughout their community.
Our politicians have obviously noticed this and have responded in kind. We are governed by soundbite, informed by off the cuff remark. Difficult news is glossed over or flat out denied until the point comes when reality steps in.
So I agree with you, under these conditions I can quite imagine how easily someone could convince themselves that a sunny Spanish beach holiday in the middle of a pandemic is a perfectly sensible idea if they really wanted to believe that. [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:01]
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Sunny Spanish holidays were within the rules for a time.
The point being made here is that people have by and large followed the rules. Not that they have by and large done what sprucemoose from twtd considers to be right. |  |
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| If you’re London based on 13:58 - Dec 21 with 3219 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| If you’re London based on 13:48 - Dec 21 by Funge |
I simply disagree.
Far more have followed the rules, than haven't.
Far more. |
I don't doubt it. But the 'haven'ts' are still many. | |
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| If you’re London based on 14:00 - Dec 21 with 3208 views | SpruceMoose |
| If you’re London based on 13:57 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz |
Sunny Spanish holidays were within the rules for a time.
The point being made here is that people have by and large followed the rules. Not that they have by and large done what sprucemoose from twtd considers to be right. |
You miss the point as ever. You yourself have said in the past that you're happy to follow the rules to agree with but not the ones you aren't. Other than that I can't be arsed to set you straight, as it is a complete waste of time. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If you’re London based on 14:03 - Dec 21 with 3193 views | StokieBlue |
| If you’re London based on 13:47 - Dec 21 by Funge |
I'm with VT on this, though.
We elect a government to govern. To lay down legislation, to enforce that legislation, and to enact punishment upon those who break that legislation.
I am unaware of anyone in any of my social circles (popular butterfly that I am), who intends on breaking the current Tier 4 tier rules.
Turning round, and repeatedly levelling accusations of selfishness at those who grow ever wearier of these piss-poor U-turns, from this manure heap of a government, all of which are apparently concocted on a whim, is missing the point. *
If the vast majority of us are taking personal responsibility/ following the rules, as you state, then frankly I am unsure where the issue is.
As if anyone needed reminding, the hospitality trade is on its knees, the arts sector on its stomach.. There are restaurants all over the country, with fridges full of food today, that will literally be binned, as this government has led that particular sector royally up the garden path, before rogering them sideways. It's a fcking outrage, particularly if the rumours relating to Hancock knowing about this 3 days earlier than broadcast, are true.
These sectors are following the 'rules', at huge fiscal and mental cost, and to what end?
Why are we directing our ire at one another? The main culprit presents himself daily, brazen, with two fingers raised directly in front of us, complete with his entourage of scumbags in tow (I'm looking at you, Patel, JRM and Gove).
This has been the toughest year for all of us, mentally, ever. A dear friend of mine has lost his mind to this (beyond the point of repair, I fear), and I have known customers that have died to this illness.
We have all gone a little nuts, I propose. Some of us are holding it together; some of us less so.
In summary, I'm not sure that constantly pointing the finger at our peers, and accusing them of selfishness, is particularly helpful at this point. Very much the 'divide and conquer' strategy that Johnson must welcome.
* I am not levelling this accusation in its full entirety at you, for the sake of good order. |
I didn't level and accusations at him though.
All I said is that the minority who cite "but Cummings" as an excuse to do things need to get past that and take some responsibility. It's never right in life to say "they did X which we know is wrong but because of that we are also going to do X".
It was specifically a point that people need to stop mentioning Cummings all the time. It's done and gone and it's no longer relevant 6 months later - at least it shouldn't be.
SB | | | |
| If you’re London based on 14:07 - Dec 21 with 3174 views | StokieBlue |
| If you’re London based on 13:57 - Dec 21 by 26_Paz |
Sunny Spanish holidays were within the rules for a time.
The point being made here is that people have by and large followed the rules. Not that they have by and large done what sprucemoose from twtd considers to be right. |
There were within the rules but would you agree that there has been a minority happy to cite government rules when they are for things they like and then ignore them for things they don't like?
That rule was a stupid one by the government, the strain of C19 circulating in the late summer and autumn in the UK could be directly traced back to Spain and probably holidaymakers.
Sensible governments are now restricting movement from the UK to their countries and they are entirely right to do so.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:08]
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| If you’re London based on 14:09 - Dec 21 with 3169 views | Funge |
| If you’re London based on 13:54 - Dec 21 by SpruceMoose |
I said plenty. I didn't once say it was a majority of people doing it. In a pandemic I think even 10% of people (as an example) not following the rules would qualify as 'plenty' considering the havoc they can and have caused.
Plenty of people (not a majority) have either not followed the rules, or have flexed them as they see fit. Plenty of people have also offloaded their common sense and ability to think for themselves onto an inept government despite usually being hell bent on ignoring guidance from authorities. That has impacted the majority of people who have tried to do the right thing.
I really don't see how you can disagree with that, unless you genuinely believe that nobody has broken or bent the rules. [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:03]
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Lets disregard the semantics of the use of the word 'plenty' - turning to the rest of the post...
Focus your anger on the government who allow them to get away with this, rather than the individuals themselves.
People were told it was OK to go abroad on holiday. People were told it was OK to 'eat out to help out'. People were told that it was OK to go back into the workplace.
I struggle with the idea that individuals are culpable with this, when the direction they have been given by the government was so unambiguous.
I also maintain that, after 9 months of being fed repeated b0llocks by this government, whilst all around, businesses collapse and livelihoods dissolve, people might grow rather weary of being told that they are inherently selfish.
Some of us are fortunate enough to have relative job security. Some of us have been on furlough since March. Some of us are able to pay our rent & mortgages without any real concerns, even in the midst of this fcking nightmare.
Plenty of others - and, by plenty, I mean a substantial minority - are not in that fortunate position. I would be loath to levy accusations of selfishness, or, indeed, any other accusations at these people, as I am not in their unfortunate position. | | | |
| If you’re London based on 14:09 - Dec 21 with 3168 views | footers |
| If you’re London based on 14:03 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
I didn't level and accusations at him though.
All I said is that the minority who cite "but Cummings" as an excuse to do things need to get past that and take some responsibility. It's never right in life to say "they did X which we know is wrong but because of that we are also going to do X".
It was specifically a point that people need to stop mentioning Cummings all the time. It's done and gone and it's no longer relevant 6 months later - at least it shouldn't be.
SB |
I've waited a long time to hear "Cummings... no longer relevant" so let's keep it that way :) | |
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| If you’re London based on 14:11 - Dec 21 with 3158 views | SpruceMoose |
| If you’re London based on 14:03 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
I didn't level and accusations at him though.
All I said is that the minority who cite "but Cummings" as an excuse to do things need to get past that and take some responsibility. It's never right in life to say "they did X which we know is wrong but because of that we are also going to do X".
It was specifically a point that people need to stop mentioning Cummings all the time. It's done and gone and it's no longer relevant 6 months later - at least it shouldn't be.
SB |
You point is related to what I've been saying.
SOME people have been using whatever justification they can find to either sidestep rules or avoid having to use their own sense of reason (or for want of a better phrase - common sense) when deciding what the most sensible and cautious course of action will be.
SOME of these same people, such as dear Jacob Rees-Pazz, have also shown themselves to be less than enthusiastic on following government advice, and all too quick to follow their own heart when deciding how to act, as soon as government advice tells them they can't or shouldn't do something.
I don't know why I keep getting battered for making this point. These people are just taking the piss out of the decent actions of the many, many people who have spent the last 9 months doing the right thing. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| If you’re London based on 14:17 - Dec 21 with 3134 views | 26_Paz |
| If you’re London based on 14:07 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
There were within the rules but would you agree that there has been a minority happy to cite government rules when they are for things they like and then ignore them for things they don't like?
That rule was a stupid one by the government, the strain of C19 circulating in the late summer and autumn in the UK could be directly traced back to Spain and probably holidaymakers.
Sensible governments are now restricting movement from the UK to their countries and they are entirely right to do so.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2020 14:08]
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Minority, yes, agree | |
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