| Hurst: a retrospective view 22:02 - Dec 29 with 4872 views | Lowie |
Don't get me wrong. I don't think he was the right man for us, but I do think he managed to grasp some of the long standing problems the club has had for the best part of 10 + years.
Hurst knew the senior pros lacked ambition, fight and work ethic. I'm not for one minute suggesting he had the perfect remedy, but Mick's team was full of journeymen. He signed hungry, (fairly) young players from the lower leagues. Garner and Waghorn didn't want to be here. He was brave, but it went spectacularly wrong.
He also identified there was/is a massive problem with fitness at the club (look at our injury list for the past 10 years) Again, not necessarily with the right solution, but he spotted it and acted on it in training.
Also, perhaps some of our 'old lags' (as described in another post) in the dressing room needed a metaphorical kick up the backside. It was all too comfortable with zero expectations. He wasn't prepared to tolerate that, and took them on. They're (mostly) all still here, and still performing at a mediocre level.
I'd be genuinely interested to see where we'd be with Hurst now. How much worse (really) would things be...we were relegated with zero fight, and are still languishing in the 3rd tier outside the play-off places two seasons later.
This is the worst coached Ipswich side since the 1950s, to pretend otherwise is garbage. They are awful. We've got some decent players, but they are not a decent team.
Lambert is the worst manager we've ever had. It is a miracle he's still here. [Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:04]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:04 - Dec 29 with 3097 views | chrismakin |
at the time, Garner and Waghorn were happy to stay, until he took the first training session
also, he ruined Bart |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:10 - Dec 29 with 3056 views | PJH |
It would also be interesting to see where we would be now if Hurst had never arrived. I think most probably in The Championship. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:15 - Dec 29 with 3030 views | Lowie |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:10 - Dec 29 by PJH |
It would also be interesting to see where we would be now if Hurst had never arrived. I think most probably in The Championship. |
I agree. I think we would.
I'm not saying Hurst wasn't anything other than a disastrous appointment, but he did seem to grasp some of the things that are fundamentally wrong at this club that other managers have not, or have chosen to ignore. These include lack of ambition/motivation/drive and issues of player fitness.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:17]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:20 - Dec 29 with 2994 views | chrismakin |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:15 - Dec 29 by Lowie |
I agree. I think we would.
I'm not saying Hurst wasn't anything other than a disastrous appointment, but he did seem to grasp some of the things that are fundamentally wrong at this club that other managers have not, or have chosen to ignore. These include lack of ambition/motivation/drive and issues of player fitness.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:17]
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The problem was, we spent the months before his arrival playing boring, fat sam like football,
oh how id be happy to watch that again lol | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:21 - Dec 29 with 2995 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:15 - Dec 29 by Lowie |
I agree. I think we would.
I'm not saying Hurst wasn't anything other than a disastrous appointment, but he did seem to grasp some of the things that are fundamentally wrong at this club that other managers have not, or have chosen to ignore. These include lack of ambition/motivation/drive and issues of player fitness.
[Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:17]
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Not sure if you are misreading my post because on the other thread I think you are agreeing with someone saying that we should have kept Hurst.
I am saying that if he had never crossed the threshold here we would probably still be a Championship club. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:25 - Dec 29 with 2980 views | marchy |
If by “old lags” we’re talking Chambers, Skuse and Bart, they never lacked fight or effort. They just weren’t/aren’t players who can drag us up the table on their own, and had probably been here long enough to realise that any time we do have one, they promptly get long-term crocked or sold. Not sure quite what spending all our money on rubbish like Donacien, Harrison, Nolan and Nsiala was supposed to do to fix that. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:25 - Dec 29 with 2978 views | Lowie |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:21 - Dec 29 by PJH |
Not sure if you are misreading my post because on the other thread I think you are agreeing with someone saying that we should have kept Hurst.
I am saying that if he had never crossed the threshold here we would probably still be a Championship club. |
I'm not misreading.
I think, all things considered that Hurst was clearly a bad appointment.
I just think Lambert has been an even worse one. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:27 - Dec 29 with 2970 views | Churchman |
Whilst Lambert is utterly clueless, I think Hurst turned out to be catastrophic. When he came to the club I thought ‘good o, fresh start, young manager, enthusiasm, fitness, youth’ etc.
What we got was a little man who was totally unsuited to the club and what it needed, something saviour Evans should have picked up on before he was appointed. It’s one thing to ship out deadwood, players that don’t fit and those who want a career elsewhere, but in signing the dregs he did diddy Hurst ensured the team was relegated before the season started.
Everyone deserves a chance but Hurst was lucky to last as long as he did. [Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:35]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:28 - Dec 29 with 2968 views | Radlett_blue |
A lot of sense there. Hurst had a record of success in the lower leagues & he thought that by doing the same things, he could replicate that one league higher. The problems were that some of the senior players didn't take kindly to him & he also recruited very poorly.
Waghorn was going to wish to go to Derby for a much better contract irrespective of Hurst so I wouldn't blame him for that. Garner wasn't a major loss; the problem was that the players Hurst brought in weren't as effective as him. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:55 - Dec 29 with 2886 views | catch74 |
A five year old could see we have issues with injuries.
Did the pros need a kick up the backside or a leader they could look up to, or better players to play alongside, or different training, or selling - that’s the managers job, to get the best out of the team. He didn’t.
Bart player of the season 3 years running here and then first year at Millwall, with a Hurst year sandwich tucked in, he might have seen issues - that’s his job, the hard part is doing the right thing to correct it, he was woeful. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:00 - Dec 29 with 2869 views | vapour_trail |
The long standing problem the club has had for the best part of ten + years, is Marcus Evans.
Until we are rid of this most catastrophic of owners, we will continue to decline.
Hurst was still a shocker though. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:02 - Dec 29 with 2857 views | jeera |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:25 - Dec 29 by marchy |
If by “old lags” we’re talking Chambers, Skuse and Bart, they never lacked fight or effort. They just weren’t/aren’t players who can drag us up the table on their own, and had probably been here long enough to realise that any time we do have one, they promptly get long-term crocked or sold. Not sure quite what spending all our money on rubbish like Donacien, Harrison, Nolan and Nsiala was supposed to do to fix that. |
"If by “old lags” we’re talking Chambers, Skuse and Bart, they never lacked fight or effort."
Quite, nor could they be categorised as journeymen.
Being adult professionals, they probably objected to being photographed in their underwear by this new bloke like some fetish driven weirdo.
If that was any indication of his approach, not to mention his sidekick's known confusion of discipline with bullying, then it's no surprise he was disliked very quickly. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:22 - Dec 29 with 2813 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
What did Hurst do to solve the perceived issue with the "journeymen" who performed well enough until he arrived but have not done enough since? He may well have signed younger players but I have yet to see their hunger unless they were so seriously lacking in talent that they were only good enough to be mid-table League 1 players.
What evidence have you that Garner and Waghorn did not want to be here before Hurst arrived? Yes, it is clear they did not want to after he arrived.
What evidence have you that Hurst acted on the injury problems in training? I must have missed our problem suddenly being solved. If he spotted it but did nothing to put it right, isn't that actually worse than not noticing it? And, isn't that actually a damning criticism of Lambert too?
Again, did Hurst really take them on over attitude? If so, he clearly lost that battle. Not sure what evidence there is for this. I am not sure you would tell Chambers, Skuse, Sears and Bialkowski to their faces that they lacked ambition and have zero expectations. I don't think any of their pay packets have been unaffected by what has happened.
I agree with your 5th paragraph but that says a lot more about Lambert than Hurst. Lambert has certainly not been a step forward. However, I am also unconvinced it was a step backward. I suspect that under Hurst we would be no better off than we are. Quite plausibly we would be worse off. We will never know.
Your 6th paragraph is spot on. I have, at times, seen the odd performance where you wonder if the players have ever trained together. However, we seem to see that type of performance regularly and then, when they do play like they know each other, it is as if they have been told never to go in the opposition half.
It is certainly astounding that Lambert is still here. I am not convinced he is our worst ever manager. I did not see John Duncan's sides or Jackie Milburn's. Statistically Hurst was worse than Lambert even in the Championship winning 4x as many matches in 2x as many attempts and gaining fractionally more points per game. It really is tiny margins between Hurst and Lambert. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:25 - Dec 29 with 2804 views | vapour_trail |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:22 - Dec 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What did Hurst do to solve the perceived issue with the "journeymen" who performed well enough until he arrived but have not done enough since? He may well have signed younger players but I have yet to see their hunger unless they were so seriously lacking in talent that they were only good enough to be mid-table League 1 players.
What evidence have you that Garner and Waghorn did not want to be here before Hurst arrived? Yes, it is clear they did not want to after he arrived.
What evidence have you that Hurst acted on the injury problems in training? I must have missed our problem suddenly being solved. If he spotted it but did nothing to put it right, isn't that actually worse than not noticing it? And, isn't that actually a damning criticism of Lambert too?
Again, did Hurst really take them on over attitude? If so, he clearly lost that battle. Not sure what evidence there is for this. I am not sure you would tell Chambers, Skuse, Sears and Bialkowski to their faces that they lacked ambition and have zero expectations. I don't think any of their pay packets have been unaffected by what has happened.
I agree with your 5th paragraph but that says a lot more about Lambert than Hurst. Lambert has certainly not been a step forward. However, I am also unconvinced it was a step backward. I suspect that under Hurst we would be no better off than we are. Quite plausibly we would be worse off. We will never know.
Your 6th paragraph is spot on. I have, at times, seen the odd performance where you wonder if the players have ever trained together. However, we seem to see that type of performance regularly and then, when they do play like they know each other, it is as if they have been told never to go in the opposition half.
It is certainly astounding that Lambert is still here. I am not convinced he is our worst ever manager. I did not see John Duncan's sides or Jackie Milburn's. Statistically Hurst was worse than Lambert even in the Championship winning 4x as many matches in 2x as many attempts and gaining fractionally more points per game. It really is tiny margins between Hurst and Lambert. |
What is absolutely mental, is that there are now worst town manager conversations on here, that don’t reference Keane OR Jewell. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:34 - Dec 29 with 2756 views | Churchman |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:25 - Dec 29 by vapour_trail |
What is absolutely mental, is that there are now worst town manager conversations on here, that don’t reference Keane OR Jewell. |
Even worse is that I thought John Duncan was near the bottom of the pile of managers I can remember. Following Evan’ efforts, Duncan is in mid table for me now! | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:35 - Dec 29 with 2742 views | vapour_trail |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 23:34 - Dec 29 by Churchman |
Even worse is that I thought John Duncan was near the bottom of the pile of managers I can remember. Following Evan’ efforts, Duncan is in mid table for me now! |
TWTD. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 01:23 - Dec 30 with 2651 views | Guthrum |
Would you really say that a man like Mick McCarthy, successful player and manager up to international level, had 'zero expectations' from his squad? |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 02:27 - Dec 30 with 2601 views | yesjohn99 |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:25 - Dec 29 by marchy |
If by “old lags” we’re talking Chambers, Skuse and Bart, they never lacked fight or effort. They just weren’t/aren’t players who can drag us up the table on their own, and had probably been here long enough to realise that any time we do have one, they promptly get long-term crocked or sold. Not sure quite what spending all our money on rubbish like Donacien, Harrison, Nolan and Nsiala was supposed to do to fix that. |
The ‘old lags’ gave up in November. Quote from the Bart Man himself. So fight and effort was severely missing. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 03:24 - Dec 30 with 2577 views | jeera |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 02:27 - Dec 30 by yesjohn99 |
The ‘old lags’ gave up in November. Quote from the Bart Man himself. So fight and effort was severely missing. |
If you choose to see it as a rebellion, rather than a state of mind they felt driven to by the glaring incompetence staring them in the face. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 08:25 - Dec 30 with 2156 views | thebooks |
This is completely wrong. Hurst was simply out of his depth and unable to manage a team of players with experience of a higher division.
To accuse the likes of Skuse and Chambers of lacking effort is just simply wrong.
He overpaid for a bunch of mediocre lower league players and as a consequence we ended up in the lower leagues.
The fact Lambert wasn’t the McCarthyesque saviour we hoped for just shows how bad the decision-making is at the top of the club.
Both are rubbish. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 08:58 - Dec 30 with 2083 views | Kropotkin123 |
Identifying problems isn't management, just one component of it. The fact that we, from the outside, can identify these issues, means it shouldn't take someone with great observational skills to recognise them. Therefore it shouldn't garner much credit.
He pretty much bought a whole new team, so to blame it on the pre-existing players is revisionist. He couldn't organise them effective, he had poor man-management skills, he transitioned to squad too quickly. He was out of his depth.
Is he better or worse than Lambert? I don't know. They were/are both terrible. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 09:05 - Dec 30 with 2068 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 08:58 - Dec 30 by Kropotkin123 |
Identifying problems isn't management, just one component of it. The fact that we, from the outside, can identify these issues, means it shouldn't take someone with great observational skills to recognise them. Therefore it shouldn't garner much credit.
He pretty much bought a whole new team, so to blame it on the pre-existing players is revisionist. He couldn't organise them effective, he had poor man-management skills, he transitioned to squad too quickly. He was out of his depth.
Is he better or worse than Lambert? I don't know. They were/are both terrible. |
As I see it without Hurst we would not have been a third division team last season although we need not have been anyway. We certainly should not be a third division team this season, that is down to Lambert as is his failure to keep us up after we had been 'Hursted'. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:25 - Dec 30 with 1927 views | Superblue95 |
I gave you an uppie as I agree with much of what you say (not all though).
In hindsight we shouldn’t have appointed Lambert or Hurst. We’d probably still be a championship club or at the very least making a decent fist of getting promoted from this league if we hadn’t. I don’t think we’d have fallen quite this low under Hurst though had we kept him and even if we had he’d have been much cheaper to get rid of. Overall Lambert has been worse.
As you say Hurst recognised some of the issues at the club, he just went about fixing them spectacularly wrong and his ballsy approach to the transfer window was a catastrophic failure. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:32 - Dec 30 with 1913 views | Steve_M |
Hurst replaced experienced Championship players with lower league ones, fell out with most of the rest of the team and bears direct responsibility for relegation. He was out of his depth and incapable of realising that which might have allowed him more time to change the team without losing the respect of the players.
He was a total failure, talked a lot about fitness and yet the team were struggling through matches right from the start of the season. Without Hurst we would almost certainly not have been relegated.
None of Lambert's own failings change the absolute disaster that Hurst was for this club, we may never recover. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:36 - Dec 30 with 1899 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:28 - Dec 29 by Radlett_blue |
A lot of sense there. Hurst had a record of success in the lower leagues & he thought that by doing the same things, he could replicate that one league higher. The problems were that some of the senior players didn't take kindly to him & he also recruited very poorly.
Waghorn was going to wish to go to Derby for a much better contract irrespective of Hurst so I wouldn't blame him for that. Garner wasn't a major loss; the problem was that the players Hurst brought in weren't as effective as him. |
So apart from alienating the senior players and replacing proven quality with players that weren't good enough he was actually alright? |  |
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