| Hurst: a retrospective view 22:02 - Dec 29 with 5366 views | Lowie |
Don't get me wrong. I don't think he was the right man for us, but I do think he managed to grasp some of the long standing problems the club has had for the best part of 10 + years.
Hurst knew the senior pros lacked ambition, fight and work ethic. I'm not for one minute suggesting he had the perfect remedy, but Mick's team was full of journeymen. He signed hungry, (fairly) young players from the lower leagues. Garner and Waghorn didn't want to be here. He was brave, but it went spectacularly wrong.
He also identified there was/is a massive problem with fitness at the club (look at our injury list for the past 10 years) Again, not necessarily with the right solution, but he spotted it and acted on it in training.
Also, perhaps some of our 'old lags' (as described in another post) in the dressing room needed a metaphorical kick up the backside. It was all too comfortable with zero expectations. He wasn't prepared to tolerate that, and took them on. They're (mostly) all still here, and still performing at a mediocre level.
I'd be genuinely interested to see where we'd be with Hurst now. How much worse (really) would things be...we were relegated with zero fight, and are still languishing in the 3rd tier outside the play-off places two seasons later.
This is the worst coached Ipswich side since the 1950s, to pretend otherwise is garbage. They are awful. We've got some decent players, but they are not a decent team.
Lambert is the worst manager we've ever had. It is a miracle he's still here. [Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:04]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:39 - Dec 30 with 1442 views | footers |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:36 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
So apart from alienating the senior players and replacing proven quality with players that weren't good enough he was actually alright? |
It's really no wonder the older pros didn't take to him after he called them sh1t and said they were only here for the money anyway. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:39 - Dec 30 with 1443 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 02:27 - Dec 30 by yesjohn99 |
The ‘old lags’ gave up in November. Quote from the Bart Man himself. So fight and effort was severely missing. |
That's rather a misrepresentation of what Bart said. He suggested the players didn't really believe they could stay up at that point, a competent new manager might have changed that belief but sadly we got Lambert. The idea that the likes of Chambers and Skuse weren't trying is somewhat ridiculous. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:41 - Dec 30 with 1430 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:39 - Dec 30 by footers |
It's really no wonder the older pros didn't take to him after he called them sh1t and said they were only here for the money anyway. |
Yeah but they needed a kick up the backside. It's not like they'd helped a side with a bottom third budget to finish top half in 4 of the previous 5 seasons or anything. Lazy underachievers the lot of them. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:43 - Dec 30 with 1421 views | footers |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:41 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Yeah but they needed a kick up the backside. It's not like they'd helped a side with a bottom third budget to finish top half in 4 of the previous 5 seasons or anything. Lazy underachievers the lot of them. |
It does take a special kind of footballing genuis to sell Webster and replace him with Nsiala. But alas now Grimsby have him all to themselves.
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:49 - Dec 30 with 1404 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:43 - Dec 30 by footers |
It does take a special kind of footballing genuis to sell Webster and replace him with Nsiala. But alas now Grimsby have him all to themselves.
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Replacing McGoldrick with Ellis Harrison was another stroke of genius. To think as well we turned down signing KVY for similar money that we then spent on Janoi Donacien. Hurst could really spot a player. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:15 - Dec 30 with 1369 views | istanblue |
For me, Paul Hurst was a BTEC Roy Keane.
He came in and identified a series of problems at the club that had been allowed to develop over a number of years but went about it completely the wrong way and alienated a large number of senior players almost immediately, similarly to how RK also tried to change the 'comfy culture' at the club and instil a winning mentality but failed. He also spent vast sums of money on utter dross like Donacien, Jackson, Nolan and Nsiala (cf. Keane with Martin, Priskin, Leadbitter etc.). The only difference was that Keane had a large transfer budget that wasn't sell-to-buy so he didn't feel the need to rip the squad apart.
Keane however arrived with credit in the bank having won the league with Sunderland a few years prior, and also having an illustrious playing career, whilst Hurst had achieved almost nothing in the game.
Both were bad managers - Keane having never managed since, and Hurst failing dismally with Scunthorpe in League Two. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:48 - Dec 30 with 1340 views | jayessess |
However bad he was I don't see how Hurst, who got 1 transfer window and 13 games, can even be in the same worst manager conversation as Lambert, who has now had 4 transfer windows and 2+ seasons to stink up the place. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:55 - Dec 30 with 1329 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:48 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
However bad he was I don't see how Hurst, who got 1 transfer window and 13 games, can even be in the same worst manager conversation as Lambert, who has now had 4 transfer windows and 2+ seasons to stink up the place. |
I think he's in the conversation precisely because he was so hopeless at his job that the usually patient ME sacked him after just 4 months. The damage he managed to inflict in that short reign was huge, he managed to decimate a midtable Championship squad and condemn us to relegation in impressively swift fashion. Lambert has been terrible for longer, agreed, but has he made us palpably so much worse than when he took over to the same extent that Hurst did? Not for me, and that's why I still have Lambert at number 2 in our worst ever manager debate. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 11:55]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:26 - Dec 30 with 1298 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:55 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
I think he's in the conversation precisely because he was so hopeless at his job that the usually patient ME sacked him after just 4 months. The damage he managed to inflict in that short reign was huge, he managed to decimate a midtable Championship squad and condemn us to relegation in impressively swift fashion. Lambert has been terrible for longer, agreed, but has he made us palpably so much worse than when he took over to the same extent that Hurst did? Not for me, and that's why I still have Lambert at number 2 in our worst ever manager debate. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 11:55]
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I think we're palpably much worse than we were when Lambert took over, yes.
We also weren't condemned to relegation when he left. Lambert did that. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:31 - Dec 30 with 1287 views | FoghornGleghorn |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:26 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I think we're palpably much worse than we were when Lambert took over, yes.
We also weren't condemned to relegation when he left. Lambert did that. |
Who was going to score the goals to drag us back up the table? | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:42 - Dec 30 with 1270 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:31 - Dec 30 by FoghornGleghorn |
Who was going to score the goals to drag us back up the table? |
We dropped 16 points from winning positions under Lambert that season, so a bit more defensive discipline would've given us a chance.
But also, Lambert had months to line up new players? | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:13 - Dec 30 with 1234 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:42 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
We dropped 16 points from winning positions under Lambert that season, so a bit more defensive discipline would've given us a chance.
But also, Lambert had months to line up new players? |
My summing up is that we were relegated because of Hurst but Lambert( or someone else) could have saved us. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:20 - Dec 30 with 1225 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 12:26 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I think we're palpably much worse than we were when Lambert took over, yes.
We also weren't condemned to relegation when he left. Lambert did that. |
I disagree. We're in a worse spot but we have a squad that looks pretty strong for the league we're in. I don't think the squad is actually significantly worse than when he came in. Compare that to what Hurst achieved in 4 months, making a solidly midtable squad into the worst in the division.
Whilst I think an exceptional manager could still have kept us up that season it would have needed to be an exceptional manager. We were adrift, leaking goals, and carried no threat up front. A lot of big hurdles to overcome. We should have made a better fist of it for sure, but Hurst left us in an abject state. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:21 - Dec 30 with 1221 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:13 - Dec 30 by PJH |
My summing up is that we were relegated because of Hurst but Lambert( or someone else) could have saved us. |
Think we needed a Mick and there aren't many of those around. Quite why Evans thought Lambert was the man in still not sure to be honest, but there we go. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:27 - Dec 30 with 1214 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:21 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Think we needed a Mick and there aren't many of those around. Quite why Evans thought Lambert was the man in still not sure to be honest, but there we go. |
Certainly the way that MM or someone like him would have gone about it would have been different to the way that PL did and equally certainly it would have been more likely to have been successful. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:37 - Dec 30 with 1200 views | bournemouthblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 22:28 - Dec 29 by Radlett_blue |
A lot of sense there. Hurst had a record of success in the lower leagues & he thought that by doing the same things, he could replicate that one league higher. The problems were that some of the senior players didn't take kindly to him & he also recruited very poorly.
Waghorn was going to wish to go to Derby for a much better contract irrespective of Hurst so I wouldn't blame him for that. Garner wasn't a major loss; the problem was that the players Hurst brought in weren't as effective as him. |
I felt he underpriced both Waghorn and Webster and it appeared to be rushed through just so he could get his intended signings through
He made the mistake of signing his League One shopping list, rather than a Championship ready one |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:02 - Dec 30 with 1163 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 13:20 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
I disagree. We're in a worse spot but we have a squad that looks pretty strong for the league we're in. I don't think the squad is actually significantly worse than when he came in. Compare that to what Hurst achieved in 4 months, making a solidly midtable squad into the worst in the division.
Whilst I think an exceptional manager could still have kept us up that season it would have needed to be an exceptional manager. We were adrift, leaking goals, and carried no threat up front. A lot of big hurdles to overcome. We should have made a better fist of it for sure, but Hurst left us in an abject state. |
I don't think it required an exceptional manager for us to get slightly more points than Bolton, Rotherham and Millwall, just a good one. We were 4 points from safety and had been competitive in half our matches even under Hurst.
I think the "same/better squad, worse spot" reflects worse on Lambert than Hurst, to be honest. We picked the wrong manager, he recruited badly and did some damage. But it *was* fixable and we've done more damage to the club over past 2 years than Hurst managed. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:15 - Dec 30 with 1150 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:02 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I don't think it required an exceptional manager for us to get slightly more points than Bolton, Rotherham and Millwall, just a good one. We were 4 points from safety and had been competitive in half our matches even under Hurst.
I think the "same/better squad, worse spot" reflects worse on Lambert than Hurst, to be honest. We picked the wrong manager, he recruited badly and did some damage. But it *was* fixable and we've done more damage to the club over past 2 years than Hurst managed. |
I disagree. The squad was rock bottom in terms of morale and had no goals in it. We also had a couple of error prone loanees in the side and not much to replace them with. It would have needed a top drawer manager at that level to get us out of the mess we were in. Someone like Mick would have given it a good go, but managers like him are few and far between.
I also disagree on the second point to be honest. Lambert inherited a squad that was rock bottom of the Championship and in that position on merit. Despite his incompetence we're not a million miles away from being at that point now. I don't think he's the man to get us there, but it's not out of reach. To get back to where we were when Hurst came in, however, would have taken a massive effort. How would we have got back to having quality like Webster, McGoldrick, and Waghorn in our side? He only had one transfer window but it has to go down as one of the worst windows that any professional club has ever had. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:45 - Dec 30 with 1117 views | Bluespeed225 |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 02:27 - Dec 30 by yesjohn99 |
The ‘old lags’ gave up in November. Quote from the Bart Man himself. So fight and effort was severely missing. |
That is a quote that still amazes/dumbfounds/angers me. November, not even half way through season and they’re throwing the towel in! Sickening, and takes the shine off Bart’s time here, and poses questions regarding Chambers, Skuse. I know 3 men can’t make a team, but they can influence the attitude. That’s what a Mk 1 Jimmy Bullard did. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 16:08 - Dec 30 with 1109 views | Churchman |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:02 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
I don't think it required an exceptional manager for us to get slightly more points than Bolton, Rotherham and Millwall, just a good one. We were 4 points from safety and had been competitive in half our matches even under Hurst.
I think the "same/better squad, worse spot" reflects worse on Lambert than Hurst, to be honest. We picked the wrong manager, he recruited badly and did some damage. But it *was* fixable and we've done more damage to the club over past 2 years than Hurst managed. |
I can’t agree with that. In one short pre season he turned a team that began to show at the previous seasons end elements of cohesion and togetherness, despite struggling for results under Klug, into absolute racing certainties for relegation by the end of August.
His pub team signings were abject and goodness know what he and Doig did with them in training, They looked beaten before they’d even started. Mind you, to say the disaster of Hurst is worse than Lambert’s miserable efforts isn’t saying much. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 16:58 - Dec 30 with 1073 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 15:15 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
I disagree. The squad was rock bottom in terms of morale and had no goals in it. We also had a couple of error prone loanees in the side and not much to replace them with. It would have needed a top drawer manager at that level to get us out of the mess we were in. Someone like Mick would have given it a good go, but managers like him are few and far between.
I also disagree on the second point to be honest. Lambert inherited a squad that was rock bottom of the Championship and in that position on merit. Despite his incompetence we're not a million miles away from being at that point now. I don't think he's the man to get us there, but it's not out of reach. To get back to where we were when Hurst came in, however, would have taken a massive effort. How would we have got back to having quality like Webster, McGoldrick, and Waghorn in our side? He only had one transfer window but it has to go down as one of the worst windows that any professional club has ever had. |
Turning around low morale is a pretty basic managerial skill.
No goals, fair enough. But, like I say, we dropped a lot of points from winning positions, so it wouldn't have taken much more resilience to make us more competitive in the short term. Post-January there was also the opportunity to improve things. Mick certainly would've given it a good go, but I don't think most people would class McCarthy as an "exceptional manager". If he were, he wouldn't have spent half a decade at Ipswich Town!
Webster and McGoldrick were both playing in League One before they came to us, Waghorn surplus to requirements in the SPL. And, as much as we seem to have decided McCarthy was some orther-worldly magician in this regard, actually picking up and improving players in this way is pretty common. I don't buy the idea that one bad window should've destroyed us forever. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 17:10 - Dec 30 with 1065 views | Radlett_blue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:49 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Replacing McGoldrick with Ellis Harrison was another stroke of genius. To think as well we turned down signing KVY for similar money that we then spent on Janoi Donacien. Hurst could really spot a player. |
The decision not to offer McGoldrick a new contract was taken before Hurst arrived. Given that McGoldrick, while an above average Championship player, had generally been fit & available for around half of Town's games in the previous 5 seasons & was 31, letting him go didn't seem a terrible idea at the time. I don't recall a huge clamour on here.
Harrison looked promising at first, but like most of Hurst's signings wasn't good enough for the Championship, although it's hard to look good as a lone striker in a poor team. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 17:11 - Dec 30 with 1063 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 16:58 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Turning around low morale is a pretty basic managerial skill.
No goals, fair enough. But, like I say, we dropped a lot of points from winning positions, so it wouldn't have taken much more resilience to make us more competitive in the short term. Post-January there was also the opportunity to improve things. Mick certainly would've given it a good go, but I don't think most people would class McCarthy as an "exceptional manager". If he were, he wouldn't have spent half a decade at Ipswich Town!
Webster and McGoldrick were both playing in League One before they came to us, Waghorn surplus to requirements in the SPL. And, as much as we seem to have decided McCarthy was some orther-worldly magician in this regard, actually picking up and improving players in this way is pretty common. I don't buy the idea that one bad window should've destroyed us forever. |
"dropped a lot of points from winning positions".
I make it 3 draws that we were at some point ahead in which include the Blackburn match where we were also behind and the Birmingham match that led to the famous "2-0 is a dangerous score line".
I would not say that is a lot of points dropped from winning positions. Although in the context Hurst only gained 10 points, I guess 6 dropped points is significant. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 17:26 - Dec 30 with 1051 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 17:11 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"dropped a lot of points from winning positions".
I make it 3 draws that we were at some point ahead in which include the Blackburn match where we were also behind and the Birmingham match that led to the famous "2-0 is a dangerous score line".
I would not say that is a lot of points dropped from winning positions. Although in the context Hurst only gained 10 points, I guess 6 dropped points is significant. |
There were several under Lambert. In his first 11 games we threw away leads in 5 games - Bristol City at home is the one that really sticks in the mind. But you also have Preston/Millwall/Sheff Utd at home (Preston played the last 20 mins without a proper keeper) and Reading away.
The major issue though was we couldn't score enough goals. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 17:29]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:13 - Dec 30 with 1021 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 16:58 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Turning around low morale is a pretty basic managerial skill.
No goals, fair enough. But, like I say, we dropped a lot of points from winning positions, so it wouldn't have taken much more resilience to make us more competitive in the short term. Post-January there was also the opportunity to improve things. Mick certainly would've given it a good go, but I don't think most people would class McCarthy as an "exceptional manager". If he were, he wouldn't have spent half a decade at Ipswich Town!
Webster and McGoldrick were both playing in League One before they came to us, Waghorn surplus to requirements in the SPL. And, as much as we seem to have decided McCarthy was some orther-worldly magician in this regard, actually picking up and improving players in this way is pretty common. I don't buy the idea that one bad window should've destroyed us forever. |
Glad you agree that we needed a miracle worker in the Mick mould to keep us up.
You seem really keen to hugely undersell just what a disaster Hurst was in his few months in charge. He sold our best players and replaced them with ones that simply weren't good enough. He destroyed morale and managed to turn Bart from the best keeper in the league to a total liability. We were in a terrible state. He inherited a solid platform as well, a squad with a decent blend of youth and experience that had just finished 12th. To come in and turn that into the worst side in the league within three months is more than just "one bad window" and trying to add some quality to the squad in January when we were already as good as relegated was never going to be an easy fix.
Don't get me wrong, Lambert is bloody awful. But Hurst totally destroyed us in less than 4 months and Lambert's complete failure to make us any better subsequently is not quite as bad as Hurst ruining us in the first place. | |
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