| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:35 - Dec 30 with 1142 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:31 - Dec 30 by GeoffSentence |
Expert on R4 today was saying that efficacy improves with a longer period between the two doses.
Also, in trials, no-one who got the first dose went on to get seriously ill with covid.
If this means that we can keep more people out of hospital at the cost of having more mild cases, then I am in favour of it. |
It might improve, but it wasn’t trialled.
It’s a hunch |  | |  |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:35 - Dec 30 with 1137 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
#guineapigs |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:39 - Dec 30 with 1127 views | lowhouseblue |
'quietly' as in the main news item on the bbc website and the lead news story on the today programme? i won't tell anyone if you don't. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:43 - Dec 30 with 1114 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:31 - Dec 30 by GeoffSentence |
Expert on R4 today was saying that efficacy improves with a longer period between the two doses.
Also, in trials, no-one who got the first dose went on to get seriously ill with covid.
If this means that we can keep more people out of hospital at the cost of having more mild cases, then I am in favour of it. |
That's interesting, I will need to look that up as I don't believe that was ever part of the trials or part of the dataset sent to the regulators.
It might be true but unless he has other data to back it up then it's not really a conclusion. I would seem odd as with the Oxford vaccine the first dose primes the body whilst the second dose infers the majority of the protection (at least that is what was originally stated).
Obviously if we can keep more people out of hospital assuming no longer-term issues.
SB |  | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:45 - Dec 30 with 1110 views | Pinewoodblue |
So Government is to follow the science.
Professor Andrew Pollard, Chair (University of Oxford)
Professor Wei Shen Lim, Chair COVID-19 immunisation (Nottingham University Hospitals)
Professor Anthony Harnden, Deputy Chair (University of Oxford)
Professor Judith Breuer (University College Hospital)
Dr Peter Elton (Greater Manchester, Lancashire, South Cumbria Strategic Clinical Network)
Dr Maggie Wearmouth (East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust)
Professor Matt Keeling (University of Warwick)
Alison Lawrence (lay member)
Professor Robert Read (Southampton General Hospital)
Professor Anthony Scott (London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine)
Professor Adam Finn (University of Bristol)
Dr Fiona van der Klis (National Institute for Public Health and the Environment, Netherlands)
Professor Maarten Postma (University of Groningen)
Professor Simon Kroll (Imperial College London)
Dr Martin Williams (University Hospitals Bristol)
Professor Jeremy Brown (University College London Hospitals)
Co-opted members (implementation matters)
Ms Anne McGowan
Dr Lorna Willocks
Dr Lucy Jessop
Dr Julie Yates
These are the people who made the decision not Boris, or any other politician. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:47 - Dec 30 with 1100 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:31 - Dec 30 by GeoffSentence |
Expert on R4 today was saying that efficacy improves with a longer period between the two doses.
Also, in trials, no-one who got the first dose went on to get seriously ill with covid.
If this means that we can keep more people out of hospital at the cost of having more mild cases, then I am in favour of it. |
I've no sympathy for the current shower in government, but this is a case of they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
We are constantly told that they should heed the advice if the their independent experts. EG's link states that the independent advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is to "give as many people in at-risk groups their first dose, rather than providing the required two doses in as short a time as possible". They believe that this course of action will "reduce mortality and hospitalisation" and "ensure that more at-risk people are able to get meaningful protection from a vaccine in the coming weeks and months, reducing deaths and starting to ease pressure on our NHS".
I can imagine the armchair epidemiologists and those with a PhD from the University of Twitter who are criticising the government for taking independent advice from their experts, would be the most vocal if, after several more thousand deaths, the JCVI minutes were released and it was shown that the government ignored their advice. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 with 1093 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:45 - Dec 30 by Pinewoodblue |
So Government is to follow the science.
Professor Andrew Pollard, Chair (University of Oxford)
Professor Wei Shen Lim, Chair COVID-19 immunisation (Nottingham University Hospitals)
Professor Anthony Harnden, Deputy Chair (University of Oxford)
Professor Judith Breuer (University College Hospital)
Dr Peter Elton (Greater Manchester, Lancashire, South Cumbria Strategic Clinical Network)
Dr Maggie Wearmouth (East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust)
Professor Matt Keeling (University of Warwick)
Alison Lawrence (lay member)
Professor Robert Read (Southampton General Hospital)
Professor Anthony Scott (London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine)
Professor Adam Finn (University of Bristol)
Dr Fiona van der Klis (National Institute for Public Health and the Environment, Netherlands)
Professor Maarten Postma (University of Groningen)
Professor Simon Kroll (Imperial College London)
Dr Martin Williams (University Hospitals Bristol)
Professor Jeremy Brown (University College London Hospitals)
Co-opted members (implementation matters)
Ms Anne McGowan
Dr Lorna Willocks
Dr Lucy Jessop
Dr Julie Yates
These are the people who made the decision not Boris, or any other politician. |
BOOOOOO WHY WON'T THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS??????
BOO WHY ARE THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS????? | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 with 1087 views | GeoffSentence |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:35 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
It might improve, but it wasn’t trialled.
It’s a hunch |
It might be a hunch.
But to say so with such certainty you would have to know on what basis it had been approved.
Do you? |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:51 - Dec 30 with 1094 views | NthQldITFC |
I'm not advocating one way or another, but I do think it's important as already mentioned here, not to overestimate the ability and the willingness of the general population to understand the more limited protection of a single dose. There will undeniably be some who have one dose, think they are now 'safe' and go out and start 'partying'. If a significant proportion of people do that, you reduce your overall effectiveness still further.
Whilst the sampling for trials is obviously done as rigorously as possible, it must surely be the case that the necessary decision of each individual to take part in a clinical trial differentiates them, in attitude if not physiology, from the average person in the street. As such their behaviours may be subtly different after vaccination. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:56 - Dec 30 with 1068 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 by GlasgowBlue |
BOOOOOO WHY WON'T THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS??????
BOO WHY ARE THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS????? |
Grizzly will next have us believe that Tony Blair had more sway in such matters than a group of so called experts.
Next they will look at the mix of those on the committee and suggest there are too many over 50 white males for the views expressed to reflect on the views of everyone. | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:57 - Dec 30 with 1055 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:39 - Dec 30 by lowhouseblue |
'quietly' as in the main news item on the bbc website and the lead news story on the today programme? i won't tell anyone if you don't. |
Its almost like websites are updated throughout the day.
The 12 week point wasn’t covered in the main stories earlier this morning. | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:59 - Dec 30 with 1047 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 by GeoffSentence |
It might be a hunch.
But to say so with such certainty you would have to know on what basis it had been approved.
Do you? |
The data is publicly available.
The 12 week gap was not trialled. | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:59 - Dec 30 with 1047 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:47 - Dec 30 by GlasgowBlue |
I've no sympathy for the current shower in government, but this is a case of they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
We are constantly told that they should heed the advice if the their independent experts. EG's link states that the independent advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is to "give as many people in at-risk groups their first dose, rather than providing the required two doses in as short a time as possible". They believe that this course of action will "reduce mortality and hospitalisation" and "ensure that more at-risk people are able to get meaningful protection from a vaccine in the coming weeks and months, reducing deaths and starting to ease pressure on our NHS".
I can imagine the armchair epidemiologists and those with a PhD from the University of Twitter who are criticising the government for taking independent advice from their experts, would be the most vocal if, after several more thousand deaths, the JCVI minutes were released and it was shown that the government ignored their advice. |
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't follow the advice.
All I am saying is that the original data from Pfizer themselves showed that one dose wasn't enough to infer protection and as NthQldITFC has pointed out, the public need to be made aware they aren't fully protected and that lockdowns will likely still be needed. Just thinking having one dose and you are protected isn't right and could lead to even more cases if people do think they are and go back to "normal".
I haven't seen any data on a single dose of the Oxford vaccine so that may well offer more protection after a single dose (although the statement says they will do this for both vaccines).
SB | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:59 - Dec 30 with 1046 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:04 - Dec 30 by StokieBlue |
I think we need to be careful here GB with how this is being presented.
That isn't how the vaccine works. It doesn't give 90+% short term protection if you have a single does. Pfizer gives at best 52% protection after a single dose even over the longer term. If you have the second dose it's then 90+% over the longer term.
Given this using only a single vaccination would mean that people are then going around thinking they are protected when really they still have a 50/50 chance of getting C19.
Given we have a lot of doses of the Oxford vaccine available in about a week it seems strange to go for such a low efficacy which wouldn't allow anything to really open up. We can start vaccinating everyone properly in a week from a lot more locations as it doesn't require cold storage.
SB |
"Given this using only a single vaccination would mean that people are then going around thinking they are protected when really they still have a 50/50 chance of getting C19. "
Think you mean "...when they still have around 50% of the risk of catching C19" |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:59 - Dec 30 with 1047 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 by GlasgowBlue |
BOOOOOO WHY WON'T THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS??????
BOO WHY ARE THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS????? |
I explained how these groups work earlier, but its easier to ignore all that to keep this act up for you I guess? :) | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:00 - Dec 30 with 1042 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:59 - Dec 30 by bluelagos |
"Given this using only a single vaccination would mean that people are then going around thinking they are protected when really they still have a 50/50 chance of getting C19. "
Think you mean "...when they still have around 50% of the risk of catching C19" |
Yes, apologies for the imprecise wording.
Still finishing my morning coffee.
SB | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:03 - Dec 30 with 1034 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:56 - Dec 30 by Pinewoodblue |
Grizzly will next have us believe that Tony Blair had more sway in such matters than a group of so called experts.
Next they will look at the mix of those on the committee and suggest there are too many over 50 white males for the views expressed to reflect on the views of everyone. |
Easier to put words in my mouth than respond to what I said I guess?
I’ve simply tried to raise the change in policy, which the manufacturers of the vaccine are saying hasn’t been trialled.
Have a good day. Which of course will be interpreted as “I hope you die” :) | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:05 - Dec 30 with 1022 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:39 - Dec 30 by lowhouseblue |
'quietly' as in the main news item on the bbc website and the lead news story on the today programme? i won't tell anyone if you don't. |
Useless Tories. Can't even get stuff out quietly with any competence. | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:07 - Dec 30 with 1015 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:49 - Dec 30 by GlasgowBlue |
BOOOOOO WHY WON'T THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS??????
BOO WHY ARE THE GOVERNMENT FOLLOWING THE ADVICE OF THEIR SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS????? |
Buy some slippers that fit...! | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:08 - Dec 30 with 1011 views | lowhouseblue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:57 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
Its almost like websites are updated throughout the day.
The 12 week point wasn’t covered in the main stories earlier this morning. |
your op is still a very strange spin to put on this. why not just quote the (not at all quiet) press release: "JCVI has advised the priority should be to give as many people in at-risk groups their first dose, rather than providing the required two doses in as short a time as possible". | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:19 - Dec 30 with 997 views | itfcjoe |
Following what Blair said about getting single doses to everyone first, seems to make most sense to me - worth reading his papers on his intitute's website |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:20 - Dec 30 with 983 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:08 - Dec 30 by lowhouseblue |
your op is still a very strange spin to put on this. why not just quote the (not at all quiet) press release: "JCVI has advised the priority should be to give as many people in at-risk groups their first dose, rather than providing the required two doses in as short a time as possible". |
Well let the spin end here, Pfizer have now released a statement: "There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.
"While decisions on alternative dosing regimens reside with health authorities, Pfizer believes it is critical that health authorities conduct surveillance efforts on any alternative schedules implemented and to ensure each recipient is afforded the maximum possible protection, which means immunisation with two doses of the vaccine."
The Government are gambling with peoples lives, seemingly deliberately taking actions which could potentially sabotage the the proven most effective COVID-19 vaccination which is absolutely ludicrous.
Given all the fuss that is being made about the AstraZeneca vaccine, though despite the fact it is less effective, it makes you wonder if the Government want to push this as it's British, rather than relying on one created by those pesky foreigners.
It also means that they can save money by spending less on the more effective but expensive vaccine and not have to bother to buy any extreme cold refrigerators for most of Suffolk, which has meant Ipswich Hospital and pretty much the whole of the surrounding area, has not been able to deploy a single vaccine yet because they don't have equipment to store it. But there's money for dodgy contracts with their friends remember.
This Government are a bunch of charlatans, the whole of the pandemic has shown that they are profligate with money and with lives and their profligacy with these things is far from finished, indeed, it could still have a fair way to go.
I wonder how many politicians will only have one dose? |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:25 - Dec 30 with 967 views | GeoffSentence |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:20 - Dec 30 by DublinBlue84 |
Well let the spin end here, Pfizer have now released a statement: "There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.
"While decisions on alternative dosing regimens reside with health authorities, Pfizer believes it is critical that health authorities conduct surveillance efforts on any alternative schedules implemented and to ensure each recipient is afforded the maximum possible protection, which means immunisation with two doses of the vaccine."
The Government are gambling with peoples lives, seemingly deliberately taking actions which could potentially sabotage the the proven most effective COVID-19 vaccination which is absolutely ludicrous.
Given all the fuss that is being made about the AstraZeneca vaccine, though despite the fact it is less effective, it makes you wonder if the Government want to push this as it's British, rather than relying on one created by those pesky foreigners.
It also means that they can save money by spending less on the more effective but expensive vaccine and not have to bother to buy any extreme cold refrigerators for most of Suffolk, which has meant Ipswich Hospital and pretty much the whole of the surrounding area, has not been able to deploy a single vaccine yet because they don't have equipment to store it. But there's money for dodgy contracts with their friends remember.
This Government are a bunch of charlatans, the whole of the pandemic has shown that they are profligate with money and with lives and their profligacy with these things is far from finished, indeed, it could still have a fair way to go.
I wonder how many politicians will only have one dose? |
"Given all the fuss that is being made about the AstraZeneca vaccine, though despite the fact it is less effective, it makes you wonder if the Government want to push this as it's British, rather than relying on one created by those pesky foreigners. "
I don't think so, it is undoubtedly easier and quicker to roll out than the Pfizer-BionTech jab, and given that we are in a race with the infection that will the main driver of this. | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:26 - Dec 30 with 973 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:19 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Following what Blair said about getting single doses to everyone first, seems to make most sense to me - worth reading his papers on his intitute's website |
I'm not sure why everyone is citing Blair - he's not really got any expertise in the field and is just following advice from people.
Pfizer themselves have said there has been no testing done on a single dose application and that it won't provide anything like the full protection.
I'm worried this is now becoming more political than scientific - there needs to be data to support any policy adjustment like this and it doesn't seem to exist. That is problematic though as obviously the JCVI also know what they are talking about but they both can't be right.
I can't find any data on the efficacy of a single dose of the Oxford vaccine though - has anyone seen this?
SB [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 10:31]
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:37 - Dec 30 with 925 views | TractorWood |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:33 - Dec 30 by StokieBlue |
That's not evidence that it provides protection at one dose though. It was also tested at a time when C19 wasn't so rampant and there wasn't a new variant. It seems a huge gamble to do a test on a sample size of millions when the recommended structure is two doses.
We all want to see the back of C19 but I worry that proper advice isn't being taken for political ends. I'd prefer a strict lockdown and then vaccinations done as per the developers guidelines.
SB |
I agree. My only quarrel is that lockdowns aren't being observed and are causing huge wider healthcare issues and economic damage. I went to the forest on Sunday for a jog and there were some groups as big as six lads mountain biking. |  |
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