| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:50 - Dec 30 with 1540 views | 26_Paz |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:47 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
I agree that is fine and sensible for the AZ vaccine if they say it will work after 12 week gap.
Maybe we’ll delay use of the Pfizer vaccine until the summer and until we can deliver it as the manufacturer says?
We’ll have lots more research by then too and probably 2 more vaccines to play with as well. See, i’m positive :) |
That’s the spirit! Good night EG, get yourself some sleep |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:51 - Dec 30 with 1552 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:48 - Dec 30 by vapour_trail |
Possibly. Depends just how dire the predictions are for the next two or three months.
I get the sense they’re shltting themselves on the potential scenes about to emanate from our hospitals. |
Agreed |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:53 - Dec 30 with 1547 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:45 - Dec 30 by vapour_trail |
You put yourself out there as the keyworker under pressure. Own it or don’t.
That’s fine re why you work there, but you take an odd approach to it, IMHO. You might want to consider how you fight the power, if you want to get a bit more senior and have a serious chance of making an impact. |
I’m pretty senior already to be fair. Only 1 rung above me in terms of ‘management’. They head hunted me to bring me in.
I do own it, or I would have walked a long while ago and gone back to consultancy and taking the oil money.
I’ve no idea of your Twitter Handle if you are spying on me. Pop in and wave :) |  | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:54 - Dec 30 with 1544 views | pistonbroke |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:48 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
He’s not commenting on it, so not sure of your point really. |
Fair comment , but your post is implying that vaccines will not be fully effective , fair comment , you were quoting stats from the Pfizer boss , yet he is not commenting on the oxford one , I’m going to leave this now , all a lot of us want is some light at the end of the tunnel , I detest a Tory government more than you , but let’s see if this vaccine does give immunity , it’s not political , it’s life saving and necessary |  | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:55 - Dec 30 with 1536 views | Churchman |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:30 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
It is gambling it will still be effective after 12 weeks, whereas the Pfizer boss is saying he can’t guarantee it after 21 days.
It is taking the short term gain of getting a few million vaccinated and hoping that one dose gets us to Spring.
If I was a betting man, i’d say we’ll see Pfizer and AZ vaccines combined within the next 6 months. 1 dose of each. |
Somebody ruled out mixing vaccines this morning on Sky. Might have been Hancock. The reality is the govt have to balance supply, distribution, storage (Pfizer), speed of the virus, overwhelmed NHS and from that even more deaths, how well one dose works v two, priority vaccination. It’s a really tough balance but if one dose gives sufficient protection to keep people from dying, it may be the best option. Who knows, but while I worry about their competence (politicians in particular) I do think the people working on this are doing their best.
The best news is that vaccines have been developed and things will improve. The AZ vaccine is the best hope so far for the world for its cost and ease of storage. Fantastic job by those who work in that world.
In terms of who you work for, do be careful won’t you. I say that as somebody who worked in the building next door to FCO. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 23:57]
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:04 - Dec 31 with 1515 views | vapour_trail |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:53 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
I’m pretty senior already to be fair. Only 1 rung above me in terms of ‘management’. They head hunted me to bring me in.
I do own it, or I would have walked a long while ago and gone back to consultancy and taking the oil money.
I’ve no idea of your Twitter Handle if you are spying on me. Pop in and wave :) |
I’m certainly not spying on you. I do prefer a more circumspect approach. I value my privacy, still suspect I am too cavalier with it mind, along with the majority of us.
Talk of taking oil money doesn’t speak of values. Don’t bang on about how much you can earn elsewhere, it’ll be tedious to your colleagues who might not countenance such an outcome as an option they would ever engage with.
I’ll leave it there EG, it’s also creepy being referred to as dad so I don’t want that to continue.
It’s a good think to make a difference in a positive way so good luck with it all. Particularly in the current situation. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:07 - Dec 31 with 1510 views | SpruceMoose |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:36 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
I think getting us to spring is the plan. Get a degree of immunity in the most vulnerable now, get to spring when respiratory illnesses are less of a problem and then you’ve got until October / November to get everyone fully vaccinated. Or am I missing something? |
Plenty. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:10 - Dec 31 with 1510 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:04 - Dec 31 by vapour_trail |
I’m certainly not spying on you. I do prefer a more circumspect approach. I value my privacy, still suspect I am too cavalier with it mind, along with the majority of us.
Talk of taking oil money doesn’t speak of values. Don’t bang on about how much you can earn elsewhere, it’ll be tedious to your colleagues who might not countenance such an outcome as an option they would ever engage with.
I’ll leave it there EG, it’s also creepy being referred to as dad so I don’t want that to continue.
It’s a good think to make a difference in a positive way so good luck with it all. Particularly in the current situation. |
Oil money was said very much with disdain. Even then, it was for education purposes.
Thanks again for the patronising talk though. Maybe you didn’t mean it, but well...
I don’t talk about money at work and unsurprisingly given I tend to operate as a defacto diplomat on overseas missions i might figured out diplomacy.
Have a good evening [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 0:10]
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:12 - Dec 31 with 1497 views | pistonbroke |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:07 - Dec 31 by SpruceMoose |
Plenty. |
Go on | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:32 - Dec 31 with 1464 views | pistonbroke |
Ok EG , I’m Essex based and read this morning that Essex nhs has declared a state of emergency , do you know anything about this | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:34 - Dec 31 with 1461 views | pistonbroke |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:32 - Dec 31 by pistonbroke |
Ok EG , I’m Essex based and read this morning that Essex nhs has declared a state of emergency , do you know anything about this |
What’s the latest data you can tell me for Chelmsford area | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:36 - Dec 31 with 1459 views | Ryorry |
Meanwhile, there also appears to be a staffing issue (a whole thread of reports) - although that may just be attracting comments from areas where there are problems - I know that in my own area, volunteers are being organised & coordinated to assist with vaccination programmes - not to actually do the jabs, but to help with giving people lifts to the surgeries, looking after people queuing etc.
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:47 - Dec 31 with 1448 views | pistonbroke |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:36 - Dec 31 by Ryorry |
Meanwhile, there also appears to be a staffing issue (a whole thread of reports) - although that may just be attracting comments from areas where there are problems - I know that in my own area, volunteers are being organised & coordinated to assist with vaccination programmes - not to actually do the jabs, but to help with giving people lifts to the surgeries, looking after people queuing etc.
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Interesting Rrory , don’t you think that people furloghed should have to work for community care in order to get their money , it this means taking people to an nhs outlet to receive their jab then so be it | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 01:11 - Dec 31 with 1436 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:47 - Dec 31 by pistonbroke |
Interesting Rrory , don’t you think that people furloghed should have to work for community care in order to get their money , it this means taking people to an nhs outlet to receive their jab then so be it |
No, we're in an emergency situation. Not the time to be worrying about things like that.
@Ryorry - same in Ipswich with people being signed up to keep things moving at the vaccination site. Car park attendants etc. | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 06:58 - Dec 31 with 1382 views | NewcyBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:32 - Dec 31 by pistonbroke |
Ok EG , I’m Essex based and read this morning that Essex nhs has declared a state of emergency , do you know anything about this |
I don’t think the FCDO deal with Essex mate.... |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 08:10 - Dec 31 with 1339 views | 26_Paz |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 00:07 - Dec 31 by SpruceMoose |
Plenty. |
Like what? | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 08:16 - Dec 31 with 1334 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:45 - Dec 30 by vapour_trail |
You put yourself out there as the keyworker under pressure. Own it or don’t.
That’s fine re why you work there, but you take an odd approach to it, IMHO. You might want to consider how you fight the power, if you want to get a bit more senior and have a serious chance of making an impact. |
That’s both harsh and unnecessary IMO.
I find EG’s tone annoyingly negative at times but to attack him on a personal level with regards to how he is handling his job is poor form.
None of us have any idea how other posters work situation affect their stress levels and mental health. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 08:50 - Dec 31 with 1301 views | andytown |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 23:21 - Dec 30 by pistonbroke |
Ok , so let’s look at some figures , if after one dose it only has a I dunno let’s call it a 50% effective figure , say there are ten thousand people in hospital putting strain on the nhs , with one dose that should reduce it to five thousand , surely that’s a good thing |
As far as I understand from what they said with the data yesterday, there haven’t been any hospitalisations in people who’ve had one dose and 3 weeks have passed, so your 10000 would potentially be reduced by a lot more than half... | | | |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 08:55 - Dec 31 with 1294 views | lowhouseblue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 08:16 - Dec 31 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s both harsh and unnecessary IMO.
I find EG’s tone annoyingly negative at times but to attack him on a personal level with regards to how he is handling his job is poor form.
None of us have any idea how other posters work situation affect their stress levels and mental health. |
i know a few senior civil servants, including at the fco as was. i do find someone referencing that role in public forums and combining it with political / anti-government comments quite odd. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:39 - Dec 31 with 1256 views | GeoffSentence |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 22:35 - Dec 30 by ElderGrizzly |
Pfizer boss rather blunt in his assessment today:
“Pfizer said there was 'no data' in its studies to show its vaccine protects against Covid when taken 12 weeks apart.
In a thinly-veiled swipe at the UK, the US firm warned that any 'alternative' dosing regimens should be closely monitored by health authorities.
'Data from the phase three study demonstrated that, although partial protection from the vaccine appears to begin as early as 12 days after the first dose, two doses of the vaccine are required to provide the maximum protection against the disease, a vaccine efficacy of 95 per cent,' Pfizer said in a statement.
'There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days” |
initially I thought this vaccination regime was for the Oxford one only, but it does seem that they are also app!ying it to the Pfizer one too.
The AstraZeneca people are on board with it for their one, and a chap fromjvci on R4 this morning said there was data from the trial to support that.
For the Pfizer one it is a different story though. The !longer period was not tested for that and the company themselves have warned about it. The Jvci chap justified this on the grounds that no previous vaccine has been shown to lose efficacy that quickly. Nevertheless withough data to back it up it does seem like a 'hunch' in the case of the Pfizer jab and I am surprised that they are taking that approach in the Pfizer case. Still needs must I suppose. |  |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:53 - Dec 31 with 1242 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:39 - Dec 31 by GeoffSentence |
initially I thought this vaccination regime was for the Oxford one only, but it does seem that they are also app!ying it to the Pfizer one too.
The AstraZeneca people are on board with it for their one, and a chap fromjvci on R4 this morning said there was data from the trial to support that.
For the Pfizer one it is a different story though. The !longer period was not tested for that and the company themselves have warned about it. The Jvci chap justified this on the grounds that no previous vaccine has been shown to lose efficacy that quickly. Nevertheless withough data to back it up it does seem like a 'hunch' in the case of the Pfizer jab and I am surprised that they are taking that approach in the Pfizer case. Still needs must I suppose. |
So scientists have this thing were they want to test everything before coming to a position. Not unreasonable when developing and administering vaccines.
So it is fair that they say "xyz" is unntested/unproven.
But previous knowledge / experience is also valid. So if all their knowledge of vaccines is that taking one dose does the majority of the job, then there is no reason why it would be different now.
Reminds me of many a business decision, where you have someone arguing for an optimised solution. An optimised solution is fck all use if you spend months deciding what it is and miss the moment.
We simply don't have the time to spend x more months working out the best way to vaccinate and/or to spend months vaccinating in a perfect manner.
The imperative is to make a call, even if it isn't perfect. Make the call, get those who need it vaccinated asap before all the hospitals are over run.
Perfectionists won't like it, but in times like these pragmatism will rule the day. Not unreasonaby imho. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:10]
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:11 - Dec 31 with 1221 views | Ryorry |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:53 - Dec 31 by bluelagos |
So scientists have this thing were they want to test everything before coming to a position. Not unreasonable when developing and administering vaccines.
So it is fair that they say "xyz" is unntested/unproven.
But previous knowledge / experience is also valid. So if all their knowledge of vaccines is that taking one dose does the majority of the job, then there is no reason why it would be different now.
Reminds me of many a business decision, where you have someone arguing for an optimised solution. An optimised solution is fck all use if you spend months deciding what it is and miss the moment.
We simply don't have the time to spend x more months working out the best way to vaccinate and/or to spend months vaccinating in a perfect manner.
The imperative is to make a call, even if it isn't perfect. Make the call, get those who need it vaccinated asap before all the hospitals are over run.
Perfectionists won't like it, but in times like these pragmatism will rule the day. Not unreasonaby imho. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:10]
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Wouldn't it make sense to reserve the Pfizer vaccine, with its max protection of 95% over 2 doses, for healthcare & carehome workers, as they are the most exposed to heavy viral loads, including those who will be administering the vaccines; and many will be in hospital locations where the specialist deep-freeze storage is?
The Oxford vaccine could then be used to cover everybody else. | |
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:15 - Dec 31 with 1204 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 09:53 - Dec 31 by bluelagos |
So scientists have this thing were they want to test everything before coming to a position. Not unreasonable when developing and administering vaccines.
So it is fair that they say "xyz" is unntested/unproven.
But previous knowledge / experience is also valid. So if all their knowledge of vaccines is that taking one dose does the majority of the job, then there is no reason why it would be different now.
Reminds me of many a business decision, where you have someone arguing for an optimised solution. An optimised solution is fck all use if you spend months deciding what it is and miss the moment.
We simply don't have the time to spend x more months working out the best way to vaccinate and/or to spend months vaccinating in a perfect manner.
The imperative is to make a call, even if it isn't perfect. Make the call, get those who need it vaccinated asap before all the hospitals are over run.
Perfectionists won't like it, but in times like these pragmatism will rule the day. Not unreasonaby imho. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:10]
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I think it's a bit of a gamble to make assumptions on how individual vaccines will work based on data from other vaccines.
In this scenario surely it would be better to:
- Continue using the Pfizer vaccine in the way it was designed, especially given one dose is only at best 52% effective and the absolute most vulnerable people were given Pfizer. Pfizer are saying they don't even know if one dose will work - it simply wasn't tested.
- Use the Oxford vaccine in the way that has been tested, which is one dose and then another one up to 12 weeks later which is now the policy (correctly since the non-public data backs it up). We have more of this vaccine so this should work well.
I don't see the issue with the above, it still maximises the benefits of the vaccine for the quantities we have. The issue is that the most vulnerable people got the Pfizer vaccine first so if we gamble on not giving the second dose and it doesn't work then the most vulnerable people are going to be the ones who have no protection.
Certainly agree we need to be as pragmatic as possible, the NHS needs as much help as it can get but it also needs to be done with the science in mind. Of course I am aware that the JCVI know more than me about the datasets and the vaccine specifics so I guess we need to trust their judgement on this one.
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:18]
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| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:20 - Dec 31 with 1185 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine process was just quietly changed by the Government on 10:11 - Dec 31 by Ryorry |
Wouldn't it make sense to reserve the Pfizer vaccine, with its max protection of 95% over 2 doses, for healthcare & carehome workers, as they are the most exposed to heavy viral loads, including those who will be administering the vaccines; and many will be in hospital locations where the specialist deep-freeze storage is?
The Oxford vaccine could then be used to cover everybody else. |
I dont know is the honest answer. But they will have used an estimate for the efficacy of just one dose and also a 12 week follow up dose.
I presume based on those estimates they have run the numbers.
I know we all want to fully understand every decision, as it is literally a matter of life and death. For us and our friends and relatives.
But we can't on this occasion so it comes down to a question of trust. Do we trust those looking at it to make the best decision based on what limited knowledge they have ?
I do, but understand many don't, which is fair enough given the ever changing policy/tiers/rules/guidance... | |
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