| Vote Green folks* 15:58 - Dec 30 with 9680 views | Darth_Koont |
*Or SNP/Scottish Greens in Scotland.
Sure, vote Labour in 2024 if it’s about removing the Tories but don’t give these self-serving, no-principled empty suits the benefit of your support in polls or local elections until then. They’re not far off as bad a breed as the Tories.
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| Vote Green folks* on 14:34 - Dec 31 with 622 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Vote Green folks* on 12:20 - Dec 31 by CrayonKing |
"Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points."
That's the whole point! If they vote against the deal it keeps a battleground open that they can't win! Next election, in the minds of a significant number of voters (that they need to win back), they'll still be the party that wouldn't accept Brexit and tried to thwart it right up until the very last minute.
The tories would have absolutely loved for him to have fallen in to that trap. Not least because it distracts from the underlying causes you want them to focus on! |
They are in between a rock and a hard place on this. They'd probably be best off focussing on the Tory domestic feck ups at the next election and leave the issue of the EU well alone. As much as staunch 'rejoiners' will want a party to rally around, I think you're right that the former red wall Brexit-supporting wouldn't flock back to Labour if they made the EU a main campaign issue. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 14:35 - Dec 31 with 619 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 14:04 - Dec 31 by CrayonKing |
I'd imagine that it was a fairly close call between voting for it and abstaining. Pretty sure abstaining would still be viewed as a fudge and "still not accepting the will of the people" in some quarters though. Voting for is probably a more effective way of drawing a line under it - effectively telling Brexit voters that they've accepted it.
I suspect we'd still have this thread if they'd abstained anyway!
Either way it's the Tory's deal to own. Nobody will care about how the vote panned out at the end of the day. Labour gets 100% of the blame for Iraq, despite the fact the vote wouldn't have passed without tory support. Can't see how this will be any different.
"And trying to make Brexit go away and making Brexit go away in political terms are two very different things."
Not sure what your point is here? Labour were destroyed at the last election by Brexit (among other things). Brexit itself isn't going anywhere, so making it go away politically so they can focus on other issues has to be the next best thing? |
I think you’re also right that it was a closer call in reality. And I don’t think you’re falling for the falsehood either that this was about avoiding a No deal.
But I don’t think this is putting Brexit to bed anyway. That’s just not going to happen whether it’s the SNP in Westminster, Remainers and Brexiteers on Twitter or just the ordinary man and woman on the street.
And if it is about at least doing that at a superficial party political level, Starmer’s own past at the forefront of Remain is the biggest barrier.
I think they’ll realise the error soon enough. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 14:57 - Dec 31 with 591 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Vote Green folks* on 14:35 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
I think you’re also right that it was a closer call in reality. And I don’t think you’re falling for the falsehood either that this was about avoiding a No deal.
But I don’t think this is putting Brexit to bed anyway. That’s just not going to happen whether it’s the SNP in Westminster, Remainers and Brexiteers on Twitter or just the ordinary man and woman on the street.
And if it is about at least doing that at a superficial party political level, Starmer’s own past at the forefront of Remain is the biggest barrier.
I think they’ll realise the error soon enough. |
Out of interest, if your bet comes in and KS is gone - who do you think will replace him? And who would YOU like to replace him? |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 15:00 - Dec 31 with 588 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 14:57 - Dec 31 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Out of interest, if your bet comes in and KS is gone - who do you think will replace him? And who would YOU like to replace him? |
The second coming of the messiah. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 15:06 - Dec 31 with 576 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Vote Green folks* on 13:08 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
It’s making a statement about what you are willing to support. I’d never put my name anywhere near the deal which is the result of 4 plus years of party political games.
An abstention at least would be the noble course and show that while you recognise the inevitability of the deal you want them to own it completely.
Although, thinking about it, maybe Starmer and the PV lot did feel complicit so is this a brutally honest take? |
That’s just rubbish though isn’t it - the only statement that voting for the deal yesterday was an acceptance that this is the best deal to draw a line under Brexit and move on
And you can bleat all you want but when you concede that it was indeed best that the deal passed and are still criticising Labour for voting that way, then you clearly are just playing party politics
LOL at you criticising Starmer for lacking substance and conviction, and then also criticising him for not abstaining on something though, top logic there |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 15:09 - Dec 31 with 569 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 15:06 - Dec 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That’s just rubbish though isn’t it - the only statement that voting for the deal yesterday was an acceptance that this is the best deal to draw a line under Brexit and move on
And you can bleat all you want but when you concede that it was indeed best that the deal passed and are still criticising Labour for voting that way, then you clearly are just playing party politics
LOL at you criticising Starmer for lacking substance and conviction, and then also criticising him for not abstaining on something though, top logic there |
Cheers. Happy New Year when it comes. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 15:17 - Dec 31 with 542 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 14:57 - Dec 31 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Out of interest, if your bet comes in and KS is gone - who do you think will replace him? And who would YOU like to replace him? |
No idea really.
I’d like a candidate who was generally concerned with unity and not insistent on pushing Labour right. I think Clive Lewis is a good candidate on that score and while he’s soft on progressive politics I think his bigger picture goal of reforming politics and pushing for PR would have a massive long-term benefit - not least re-engaging people in democracy and representation over posturing and self-interest.
If there’s a leadership challenge then will be interesting to see who really has the ambition and the ideas. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 15:40 - Dec 31 with 509 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 15:17 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
No idea really.
I’d like a candidate who was generally concerned with unity and not insistent on pushing Labour right. I think Clive Lewis is a good candidate on that score and while he’s soft on progressive politics I think his bigger picture goal of reforming politics and pushing for PR would have a massive long-term benefit - not least re-engaging people in democracy and representation over posturing and self-interest.
If there’s a leadership challenge then will be interesting to see who really has the ambition and the ideas. |
"I’d like a candidate who was generally concerned with unity and not insistent on pushing Labour right."
The real problem here though is that there is a decent percentage of the party which is too "right" for you so I don't see how you can ever square this position especially given any unity candidate needs to appeal to people with those views as well.
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| Vote Green folks* on 15:59 - Dec 31 with 474 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 15:40 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
"I’d like a candidate who was generally concerned with unity and not insistent on pushing Labour right."
The real problem here though is that there is a decent percentage of the party which is too "right" for you so I don't see how you can ever square this position especially given any unity candidate needs to appeal to people with those views as well.
SB |
Corbyn had a better grasp of the broad church than Starmer. I now see a Labour party leadership that is actively punching left and purging.
Which should come as no surprise after the Labour leaks evidence but still ... an opposition party that struggles even to tolerate bogstandard social democracy is as bad a problem for our democracy and future as the prevailing right of our government and media.
I don’t believe for one minute that balance is representative of the people in the UK as a whole. The Establishment, absolutely. And there’s the problem and why the UK is likely going to split up sooner rather than later. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:13 - Dec 31 with 444 views | itfcjoe |
| Vote Green folks* on 15:59 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Corbyn had a better grasp of the broad church than Starmer. I now see a Labour party leadership that is actively punching left and purging.
Which should come as no surprise after the Labour leaks evidence but still ... an opposition party that struggles even to tolerate bogstandard social democracy is as bad a problem for our democracy and future as the prevailing right of our government and media.
I don’t believe for one minute that balance is representative of the people in the UK as a whole. The Establishment, absolutely. And there’s the problem and why the UK is likely going to split up sooner rather than later. |
The first paragraph is just nonsense, the hard left have never tried to ingratiate themselves in the Labour Party at any level. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:15 - Dec 31 with 430 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:19 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
I’ll take this one paragraph by paragraph:
Pretty much and yes
I believe things should be looked at through the prism of the moment. At the time we were desperate for PPE and would have done anything to get it, including not following usual procurement practices.
When did I say anything about looking after the rich at the expense of the poor?! You’ve just made that bit up |
"When did I say anything about looking after the rich at the expense of the poor?!"
"I believe in free markets and a small state."
That is what your own words actually mean. A small state is the shrinking of public services or, in other words, austerity. It means low taxes and low services. The rich prosper because they afford to pay for services. The poor suffer because they rely on charity or simply do not get what they need.
You are consistent with what you say but you are blinkered if you do not recognise that it boils down to "looking after the rich at the expense of the poor".
EDIT: Plus your justification of the Government's corrupt spending to line their mates' pockets is wide of the mark. There were contracts for ferries for Brexit contingencies and many other examples that are nothing to do with Covid. If they were a foreign Government the outcry at the level of corruption would be loud. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 16:17]
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| Vote Green folks* on 16:19 - Dec 31 with 420 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:13 - Dec 31 by itfcjoe |
The first paragraph is just nonsense, the hard left have never tried to ingratiate themselves in the Labour Party at any level. |
They went with the members wishes and Corbyn included a wide spectrum of the PLP in his first shadow cabinets. There was also no purge of the Labour right at the helm in Labour HQ.
What’s your counter-evidence? I’m on tenterhooks. | |
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