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"The force was critical of the families for travelling into the area, that is under tier four coronavirus restrictions. It said: "All except one car was from out of Cheshire. We had people from Sale, Stockport and Salford with the closest being Congleton. Sadly these people have put all of us at risk today."
That pass is only a few miles north of Kinder Scout. It's a wild part of the country, particularly in January.
People think these places are pretty spots for a walk, which they are but from a few years experience running in the fells, you are never in Kansas and are only ever 30 minutes away from being in problems if you don't have provisions, local knowledge, GPS etc.
Oh dear, we are now advocating violence; not doing it ourselves of course, but suggesting someone else does it! I thought at least you might try and do a 'Craig Evans' without assistance. Happy New Year (non-violent of course)
There needs to be a massive switch in how these matters are policed.
It's clear that advice and education is not working. Also, let's face it, those who are being caught are already well aware of the restrictions.
If there was no more 'softly softly' approach, and the £10k fines were used as the default, I dare say that rule-breaking would cease almost immediately.
There needs to be a massive switch in how these matters are policed.
It's clear that advice and education is not working. Also, let's face it, those who are being caught are already well aware of the restrictions.
If there was no more 'softly softly' approach, and the £10k fines were used as the default, I dare say that rule-breaking would cease almost immediately.
Surely there is a middle ground between sweet whispered nothings and £10k?
There needs to be a massive switch in how these matters are policed.
It's clear that advice and education is not working. Also, let's face it, those who are being caught are already well aware of the restrictions.
If there was no more 'softly softly' approach, and the £10k fines were used as the default, I dare say that rule-breaking would cease almost immediately.
Very good point Snudge - I also hope that those being fined will be made to 'cough up'. Let's remember though that a very high percentage of folk are abiding by most of the rules.
Surely there is a middle ground between sweet whispered nothings and £10k?
I believe that the severity of the situation requires a much more heavy-handed approach.
Say, for example, that an 'entry-level' fine of £100 is introduced. How many times would a rule-breaker need to break said rules before getting caught and being liable for the fine? I'd hazard a guess that it's less than a 1-in-10 chance of getting caught.
If you make the fine in any way affordable, people will just ride their luck until such time as they get caught. If, on the other hand, you make it clear that anyone getting caught will immediately be liable for a £10k fine, I reckon that next to nobody would take those odds.
I believe that the severity of the situation requires a much more heavy-handed approach.
Say, for example, that an 'entry-level' fine of £100 is introduced. How many times would a rule-breaker need to break said rules before getting caught and being liable for the fine? I'd hazard a guess that it's less than a 1-in-10 chance of getting caught.
If you make the fine in any way affordable, people will just ride their luck until such time as they get caught. If, on the other hand, you make it clear that anyone getting caught will immediately be liable for a £10k fine, I reckon that next to nobody would take those odds.
I understand the logic but the rules and guidance aren't totally cut and dry. Massive draconian fines feel a bit Orwellian to me. A £500 fine at the discretion of the police for brainless breaches would surely deter people if they were actually being issued.
I understand the logic but the rules and guidance aren't totally cut and dry. Massive draconian fines feel a bit Orwellian to me. A £500 fine at the discretion of the police for brainless breaches would surely deter people if they were actually being issued.
I feel that the problem with fines such as that is that it creates a two-tier system. Although £500 would be a hefty hit for me, there would be plenty who would see it as a drop in the ocean, and a small price to pay for a spot of fell walking.
I agree that there should be discretion in the issuing of said fines, particularly in borderline cases etc., but if you are driving hundreds of miles to go for a walk at a beauty spot, then it should be an instant £10k fine, no questions asked.
Ditto house parties (£10k for each person attending) and any other egregious breaches.
It might seem heavy-handed, but everything that has happened over the last nine months has proved that the usual 'policing by consent' approach isn't working.
I feel that the problem with fines such as that is that it creates a two-tier system. Although £500 would be a hefty hit for me, there would be plenty who would see it as a drop in the ocean, and a small price to pay for a spot of fell walking.
I agree that there should be discretion in the issuing of said fines, particularly in borderline cases etc., but if you are driving hundreds of miles to go for a walk at a beauty spot, then it should be an instant £10k fine, no questions asked.
Ditto house parties (£10k for each person attending) and any other egregious breaches.
It might seem heavy-handed, but everything that has happened over the last nine months has proved that the usual 'policing by consent' approach isn't working.
I agree on policing by consent.
I think road blocks on main roads and the odd county border would help.
No sane person would risk a £500 fine for a walk. They just need to start issuing them when people are more than say 20 miles away from home.
Nah, travelling in a pandemic, putting others in danger, £10k is about right.
I just think that's emotive and disproportionate to the actual act. The problem is that everyone is ignoring the rules which massively increases the risk. They need proportionate fines and visible police presence at main roads, county lines and at the entrances to national parks.
I think road blocks on main roads and the odd county border would help.
No sane person would risk a £500 fine for a walk. They just need to start issuing them when people are more than say 20 miles away from home.
You'd think that, wouldn't you?
On the other hand, it's clear that those with the money to do so (Premier League footballers, pop 'stars' etc.,) merely see the risk of a £10k fine as a minor inconvenience. I'd suggest that those who can readily afford a 10% risk of having to pay £500 would take a similar approach.
On the other hand, it's clear that those with the money to do so (Premier League footballers, pop 'stars' etc.,) merely see the risk of a £10k fine as a minor inconvenience. I'd suggest that those who can readily afford a 10% risk of having to pay £500 would take a similar approach.
It's an interesting debate. Better still BoJo needs to escalate to a lockdown. The numbers are mental.
I just think that's emotive and disproportionate to the actual act. The problem is that everyone is ignoring the rules which massively increases the risk. They need proportionate fines and visible police presence at main roads, county lines and at the entrances to national parks.
I don't want to be 'that guy', but surely if you are obeying the rules, then it shouldn't make any difference to you how high the fines are set, or how draconian their enforcement is?
That pass is only a few miles north of Kinder Scout. It's a wild part of the country, particularly in January.
People think these places are pretty spots for a walk, which they are but from a few years experience running in the fells, you are never in Kansas and are only ever 30 minutes away from being in problems if you don't have provisions, local knowledge, GPS etc.
[Post edited 4 Jan 2021 9:25]
Derbyshire Police posted this on FB at 17:54 on 2nd January. They knew what was coming. Surprised it hasn’t got more coverage:
This is being typed from our office while most of the team is out in our few available vehicles. It’s been snowing most of the afternoon, just as forecast. It’s the middle of winter, and Bleaklow and Kinder are the highest points in Derbyshire. We are in the throes of a pandemic placing restrictions on all our recreational activities. Upwards of 200 cars were parked on Snake Pass summit early this afternoon; busier than a summer bank holiday, but with the main difference being the large white things dropping out of the sky. Presumably, the occupants of these vehicles were out on the moors. It seems like many didn’t have the common sense to check the forecast, dress themselves suitably, check they had a capable vehicle and / or driving skills, never mind the fact that they perhaps shouldn’t have been stretching the advice given by the government so as not to overburden our NHS. Never mind, though. Just ring the police and expect them to come along with their magical snowmobiles. Of course, with our superpowers we can simultaneously deal with similar situations in the Goyt Valley, Mam Nick, Curbar Gap and others. And we’re covid-proof, didn’t you know? Joking aside, please don’t be stupid. It shouldn’t need a greater explanation than that. Hopefully the evening won’t deteriorate into a mass of emergencies. We’ll deal with what we can, but our underpants aren’t on the outside and we can only knock so much common sense back into society.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
The only thing being - at 10k, most of these fines will never be paid.
That's not the point though.
If someone is unable to pay a fine at such a level, then they will have the opportunity to make their case before the courts, who will decide upon the appropriate level.
At the very least, £10k sets a good starting point at a level which should make all but the most wealthy within society sit up and take notice.
I believe that the severity of the situation requires a much more heavy-handed approach.
Say, for example, that an 'entry-level' fine of £100 is introduced. How many times would a rule-breaker need to break said rules before getting caught and being liable for the fine? I'd hazard a guess that it's less than a 1-in-10 chance of getting caught.
If you make the fine in any way affordable, people will just ride their luck until such time as they get caught. If, on the other hand, you make it clear that anyone getting caught will immediately be liable for a £10k fine, I reckon that next to nobody would take those odds.
You may be upset to hear that the majority of the £10k fines already issued, when they go to court, are ruled as excessive and a far lower fine is then imposed.
So your sledge hammer approach doesn't work as the sledge hammer is rejected by the courts.
Also worth noting is that sitting in a car, driving to do an outside doors persuit is not actually very dangerous. So why waste the efforts of those policing our conduct on something that in the scheme of things isn't remotely dangerous? (Accepting unneccessary driving in the snow is stupid whenever it occurs)
And even if you think the 30 car loads driving to do some walking in Derbyshire are irresponsible, it still is negligible in terms of CV transmission when compared to the millions of people mixing in work, shops and schools.
Absolutely, need enforcement and all these snowflakes crying out our rights to Freedom are the ones breaking the rule.
£10k for everything and everyone. it would stop over night.
All of the countries who are on top of this have two things we don't - clear/decisive leadership and enforcement.
The courts have overturned and/or reduced most of the fines - ruling the £10k as excessive.
So it's all a bit of a pointless argument all said and done.
Having more realistic fines and actually enforcing them would be more likely to get compliance imho.
And to be fair, compliance is incredibly high. How many people post up about someone abiding by the rules? Yet lots of people post up about rule breaches. This gives a completely false picture of what is actually happening.
I think road blocks on main roads and the odd county border would help.
No sane person would risk a £500 fine for a walk. They just need to start issuing them when people are more than say 20 miles away from home.
Why? How is a walk 20 miles from your house any more dangerous than a walk closer to home?
Walking isn't remotely dangerous. Yet is has huge benefits in terms of physical and mental health. If you are not lucky enough to have nice countryside on your doorstep why would anyone object to people driving a reasonable distance to access nice walks?
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