| Govt U-turns 10:25 - Jan 4 with 2980 views | usm |
Shouldn't these be applauded rather than scorned.
Politicians (and others) get slated for changing their mind/U-turning, but surely they should be applauded for it. Its a good thing isn't it? Sticking to your guns, when facts show you may we wrong, deserves a slating, but u-turning doesn't.
We need a big change in attitude generally, I had thought that Covid may help that along, but I'm not sure it will. Too many people still trying to score points at the expense of others and too many people, especially in the media, still slanting things towards their own particular end. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:27 - Jan 4 with 2083 views | StokieBlue |
In the general case I think you are correct, changes of policy when facts or evidence changes should be applauded.
However in the specific case of this government the changes of policy come a long time after the original policy which was formed but with very little new evidence available. So the issue is that they shouldn't have needed a U-turn because the evidence was all originally there to make the right decision.
Boris is at it again right now, he clearly has the evidence and knows the tiers need to be even harsher and said as much on Marr yesterday morning but he's refusing to take the decision which will mean it's delayed and when they finally make the decision it will have cost lives and the virus will have spread.
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| Govt U-turns on 10:29 - Jan 4 with 2074 views | DanTheMan |
Depends on the U-Turn.
A lot of the criticisms recently (assuming we're talking about the Government here) have been that the Government have said one thing, defended it fairly vehemently and then some time later relent even when the facts haven't actually changed. So the criticism isn't so much the U-turn itself but that they didn't listen in the first place.
Or at least that's how I see it anyway. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:30 - Jan 4 with 2063 views | WD19 |
Depends entirely on the context in my book (ie The merit of the original decision being U-turned).
That said, I agree with your general point. Complete muck-spreader media approach to saying 'stuff' just so that 'I told you so' is in play. Very wearing. |  | | |
| Govt U-turns on 10:31 - Jan 4 with 2057 views | m14_blue |
Yep, they should definitely be applauded for getting literally everything wrong, costing numerous lives, sticking to it dogmatically for just long enough to make it even worse before eventually bowing to the inevitable.
Jesus.
Do you really think there is anything about this government’s performance over the last 12 months to admire??
Agree with the general point about u turns but they’re more being slated for getting it so wrong in the first place, not for eventually getting it right. |  | | |
| Govt U-turns on 10:34 - Jan 4 with 2037 views | jeera |
"Too many people still trying to score points at the expense of others and too many people, especially in the media, still slanting things towards their own particular end."
Which is what you seem to attempt every single time you pop up with this kind of thing. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:36 - Jan 4 with 2025 views | clive_baker |
I would applaud the government once in a while demonstrating some foresight that doesn't leave them needing an 11th hour U-turn. The uncertainty of it all is as damaging that any of the underlying decisions. We knew back in Nov / Dec that January was going to be a challenge, just keep schools teaching remotely FFS, they did it before. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:39 - Jan 4 with 2002 views | bracknell_blue |
Not in this case. The u-turns merely got them to the place they should have been in the first place by denying the evidence and reality of the situation. Rank bad Government to keep getting it wrong so spectacularly and so consistently. But I expect nothing less from Johnson. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:41 - Jan 4 with 1993 views | eireblue |
Depends, there is a difference between stopping and asking directions, compared to ending up in Bristol, when you wanted to be at the Bullring in Birmingham, after ignoring the person with a map. |  | | |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:48 - Jan 4 with 1956 views | NthQldITFC |
I think the phrase itself, like many expressions, is overused in a snidey playground insult kind of way. It's inevitable really given the erosion of honesty and humility in politics and the mentality of those involved. However, if there was ever a time when it was applicable, it would be now, so ner-ner ner-ner-ner, [blows raspberry]! |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 10:56 - Jan 4 with 1931 views | Herbivore |
Changing one's mind in the face of new evidence is to be applauded. However, that's not what this government has tended to do. They have often had all the evidence they need to take a decision and then for obscure reasons have decided not to act, insisted that acting isn't necessary, only to then act at a later date when many more lives have been lost and when the actions taken will often need to be more extreme and more long lasting.
None of this is based on hindsight. The schools issue, for example, has been being debated almost since schools went back but certainly with more intensity over the last 3 weeks. Sage reportedly advised the government to close schools 2 weeks ago. And yet here we are, knowing that further school closures look inevitable and yet the government still refuses to act. When they eventually do so that is not something to be commended. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:02 - Jan 4 with 1893 views | vapour_trail |
| Govt U-turns on 10:56 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
Changing one's mind in the face of new evidence is to be applauded. However, that's not what this government has tended to do. They have often had all the evidence they need to take a decision and then for obscure reasons have decided not to act, insisted that acting isn't necessary, only to then act at a later date when many more lives have been lost and when the actions taken will often need to be more extreme and more long lasting.
None of this is based on hindsight. The schools issue, for example, has been being debated almost since schools went back but certainly with more intensity over the last 3 weeks. Sage reportedly advised the government to close schools 2 weeks ago. And yet here we are, knowing that further school closures look inevitable and yet the government still refuses to act. When they eventually do so that is not something to be commended. |
Well exactly. You’re all very patient. But the op is the op. Not worth wasting the time on. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:05 - Jan 4 with 1859 views | usm |
| Govt U-turns on 10:39 - Jan 4 by bracknell_blue |
Not in this case. The u-turns merely got them to the place they should have been in the first place by denying the evidence and reality of the situation. Rank bad Government to keep getting it wrong so spectacularly and so consistently. But I expect nothing less from Johnson. |
So you think u-turns should be slated, even if they are the right thing to do? Seriously??? | |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:08 - Jan 4 with 1828 views | usm |
| Govt U-turns on 10:31 - Jan 4 by m14_blue |
Yep, they should definitely be applauded for getting literally everything wrong, costing numerous lives, sticking to it dogmatically for just long enough to make it even worse before eventually bowing to the inevitable.
Jesus.
Do you really think there is anything about this government’s performance over the last 12 months to admire??
Agree with the general point about u turns but they’re more being slated for getting it so wrong in the first place, not for eventually getting it right. |
Thats not what I said, though is it? | |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:10 - Jan 4 with 1815 views | usm |
| Govt U-turns on 10:34 - Jan 4 by jeera |
"Too many people still trying to score points at the expense of others and too many people, especially in the media, still slanting things towards their own particular end."
Which is what you seem to attempt every single time you pop up with this kind of thing. |
So you agree with me, good. | |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:20 - Jan 4 with 1801 views | Guthrum |
| Govt U-turns on 10:56 - Jan 4 by Herbivore |
Changing one's mind in the face of new evidence is to be applauded. However, that's not what this government has tended to do. They have often had all the evidence they need to take a decision and then for obscure reasons have decided not to act, insisted that acting isn't necessary, only to then act at a later date when many more lives have been lost and when the actions taken will often need to be more extreme and more long lasting.
None of this is based on hindsight. The schools issue, for example, has been being debated almost since schools went back but certainly with more intensity over the last 3 weeks. Sage reportedly advised the government to close schools 2 weeks ago. And yet here we are, knowing that further school closures look inevitable and yet the government still refuses to act. When they eventually do so that is not something to be commended. |
This is the core of the matter.
The OP is correct in that all governmental U-turns should not be automatically derided.
But in so many cases recently, there was no need for it as they had the information or advice to take a better position from the outset. Instead they have been trying to square the circle of business lobbyist and backbench pressure with the medical situation. And not done a very good job of it. With the result there may have been more damage to commerce than necessary while not dealing effectively with the virus either. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:45 - Jan 4 with 1737 views | gordon |
| Govt U-turns on 10:36 - Jan 4 by clive_baker |
I would applaud the government once in a while demonstrating some foresight that doesn't leave them needing an 11th hour U-turn. The uncertainty of it all is as damaging that any of the underlying decisions. We knew back in Nov / Dec that January was going to be a challenge, just keep schools teaching remotely FFS, they did it before. |
Yes, to me it seems bizarre that we can't, as a society, find a way for those kids that miss out on e.g. 3 weeks teaching now, to just receive extra teaching at some point in the future, e.g. have a reduced summer holiday, or teaching over half-terms etc, delay exams by a month. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
I know that would require teachers to do a few weeks extra and maybe miss a holiday, but my guess is they'd prefer that to putting themselves and their families at risk of a very unpleasant illness. |  | | |
| Govt U-turns on 11:47 - Jan 4 with 1732 views | DanTheMan |
| Govt U-turns on 11:10 - Jan 4 by usm |
So you agree with me, good. |
I really don't understand the point in making a thread like this if you're not actually going to engage properly with those who have responded. | |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:49 - Jan 4 with 1722 views | footers |
| Govt U-turns on 11:47 - Jan 4 by DanTheMan |
I really don't understand the point in making a thread like this if you're not actually going to engage properly with those who have responded. |
Presumably to defend 'boris' and his clueless government while attacking Labour. This aged well.
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| Govt U-turns on 11:52 - Jan 4 with 1704 views | vapour_trail |
| Govt U-turns on 11:47 - Jan 4 by DanTheMan |
I really don't understand the point in making a thread like this if you're not actually going to engage properly with those who have responded. |
Back at work. Bored. Bellend.
That’s my theory. | |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:52 - Jan 4 with 1700 views | SpruceMoose |
| Govt U-turns on 11:47 - Jan 4 by DanTheMan |
I really don't understand the point in making a thread like this if you're not actually going to engage properly with those who have responded. |
Attention. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 11:54 - Jan 4 with 1699 views | gordon |
| Govt U-turns on 11:20 - Jan 4 by Guthrum |
This is the core of the matter.
The OP is correct in that all governmental U-turns should not be automatically derided.
But in so many cases recently, there was no need for it as they had the information or advice to take a better position from the outset. Instead they have been trying to square the circle of business lobbyist and backbench pressure with the medical situation. And not done a very good job of it. With the result there may have been more damage to commerce than necessary while not dealing effectively with the virus either. |
Johnson just seems such a coward when it comes to making difficult decisions - he's utterly unable to assess evidence and act in advance of a situation - he repeatedly lets situations run so far out of control that there's really no decision left for him to make.
They also never seem to have any kind of contingency planning for even really predictable events, and just seem to think that if they repeat a mantra like 'schools are safe' over and over, this will somehow make schools safer, or trick people into thinking it so. It must be partly a consequence of the way these people got into power - by repeating empty, meaningless slogans over and over, and ignoring the simple fact that public policy is about difficult choices. | | | |
| Govt U-turns on 12:07 - Jan 4 with 1666 views | Guthrum |
| Govt U-turns on 11:54 - Jan 4 by gordon |
Johnson just seems such a coward when it comes to making difficult decisions - he's utterly unable to assess evidence and act in advance of a situation - he repeatedly lets situations run so far out of control that there's really no decision left for him to make.
They also never seem to have any kind of contingency planning for even really predictable events, and just seem to think that if they repeat a mantra like 'schools are safe' over and over, this will somehow make schools safer, or trick people into thinking it so. It must be partly a consequence of the way these people got into power - by repeating empty, meaningless slogans over and over, and ignoring the simple fact that public policy is about difficult choices. |
Difficult choices involve upsetting people. Johnson wants to be loved, as (to an extent) he was during his time as Mayor of London.
Now he has angry chums, backers and lobbyists on one side and angry medical advisers and populace on the other. He's even caught between his fiancee and his senior advisers. He doesn't seem tough enough to be a great statesman.
The supporting cast are no great help, either. | |
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| Govt U-turns on 12:12 - Jan 4 with 1649 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Govt U-turns on 11:54 - Jan 4 by gordon |
Johnson just seems such a coward when it comes to making difficult decisions - he's utterly unable to assess evidence and act in advance of a situation - he repeatedly lets situations run so far out of control that there's really no decision left for him to make.
They also never seem to have any kind of contingency planning for even really predictable events, and just seem to think that if they repeat a mantra like 'schools are safe' over and over, this will somehow make schools safer, or trick people into thinking it so. It must be partly a consequence of the way these people got into power - by repeating empty, meaningless slogans over and over, and ignoring the simple fact that public policy is about difficult choices. |
The thing that annoys me about changes of direction is the way government feel they have to let everyone know in advance of any official announcement. They have been doing it for years, Labour government also, look at budget speeches they rarely contain any major surprise.
There is no need to prime us in advance be i5 good or bad news. Just get in with it.
Regarding the OP there are different types of U turns, those where the experts change their advice are perfectly acceptable; while those where politicians dither and delay following the advice are not. |  |
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| Govt U-turns on 12:14 - Jan 4 with 1643 views | jeera |
| Govt U-turns on 12:07 - Jan 4 by Guthrum |
Difficult choices involve upsetting people. Johnson wants to be loved, as (to an extent) he was during his time as Mayor of London.
Now he has angry chums, backers and lobbyists on one side and angry medical advisers and populace on the other. He's even caught between his fiancee and his senior advisers. He doesn't seem tough enough to be a great statesman.
The supporting cast are no great help, either. |
As a human being he is extremely shallow mate.
That is why he is how he is. He has to act because that's all there is to him.
There is no depth, to his character, to his personality, to his ability.
I daresay he didn't have to think much when growing up and what we see is the result. There is no hidden layer. | |
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| Govt U-turns on 12:26 - Jan 4 with 1597 views | usm |
| Govt U-turns on 12:14 - Jan 4 by jeera |
As a human being he is extremely shallow mate.
That is why he is how he is. He has to act because that's all there is to him.
There is no depth, to his character, to his personality, to his ability.
I daresay he didn't have to think much when growing up and what we see is the result. There is no hidden layer. |
Aah Jeera, you know me so well.
I'm sure you can get a few more insults in there if you really try, go on, you know you want to. | |
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