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I'm sure this will go down well 23:38 - Jan 7 with 2625 viewsStokieBlue

Musk is now the worlds richest person with a personal wealth in excess of 185bn USD:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55578403

Insanely this isn't actually historically high. Adjusted for time Rockafeller would be worth in excess of 400bn USD which is absurd.

SB
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 23:39]

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I'm sure this will go down well on 23:44 - Jan 7 with 2348 viewsDarth_Koont

Insane. No way is he or his company worth that on earnings or actual value created.

It’s just a larger scale version of Kylie Jenner owning a near-billion dollar cosmetics company.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 23:47 - Jan 7 with 2336 viewsmonytowbray

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:44 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont

Insane. No way is he or his company worth that on earnings or actual value created.

It’s just a larger scale version of Kylie Jenner owning a near-billion dollar cosmetics company.


All those government handouts didn’t have anything to do with it I’m sure...

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I'm sure this will go down well on 23:47 - Jan 7 with 2336 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:44 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont

Insane. No way is he or his company worth that on earnings or actual value created.

It’s just a larger scale version of Kylie Jenner owning a near-billion dollar cosmetics company.


Totally agree that the valuation isn't justified.

SpaceX is likely to be worth a lot over the longer term but it's not listed so doesn't fluctuate like Tesla. Some of the price for Tesla has been driven by the fact the Democrats now also control the senate and they will be in favour of green policies and subsides rather than gas guzzlers like the Republicans.

But for a company that has never really made a decent profit it's a crazy valuation.

SB

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I'm sure this will go down well on 23:57 - Jan 7 with 2310 viewsJ2BLUE

Obscene level of wealth. I don't know how anyone can morally obtain that much money where it's in Tesla stock or whatever it is.

Love space. Love SpaceX. This sickens me though. I'm sure people will line up to tell me i'm wrong but I just can't think this is acceptable.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:20 - Jan 8 with 2284 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:57 - Jan 7 by J2BLUE

Obscene level of wealth. I don't know how anyone can morally obtain that much money where it's in Tesla stock or whatever it is.

Love space. Love SpaceX. This sickens me though. I'm sure people will line up to tell me i'm wrong but I just can't think this is acceptable.


You're not wrong and it's not acceptable but with regards to Tesla it's not really his fault.

Just look at BryanPlug's thread a few down from this and you can see people buying shares for their own purposes are the ones pushing up his wealth.

SpaceX isn't floated but it will be at some point and then his wealth will explode again because SpaceX has a huge amount of upside and as you say, is a good company with a lot of innovation.

SB

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:20 - Jan 8 with 2284 viewsGuthrum

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:57 - Jan 7 by J2BLUE

Obscene level of wealth. I don't know how anyone can morally obtain that much money where it's in Tesla stock or whatever it is.

Love space. Love SpaceX. This sickens me though. I'm sure people will line up to tell me i'm wrong but I just can't think this is acceptable.


He hasn't really obtained that much money. It's more a matter of taking the amount other people are (or would be) willing to pay for a tiny slice of the company he runs and extrapolating it to give a valuation for his share of the business.

He couldn't raise that much by liquidating his stock (the price would crash, for a start). It often doesn't take the business' debt levels into account. Sometimes it's impossible to really work out who owns what portion of the company. It certainly does not imply profitability.

In practical terms, it's a virtually meaningless number.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:26 - Jan 8 with 2261 viewsJ2BLUE

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:20 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

He hasn't really obtained that much money. It's more a matter of taking the amount other people are (or would be) willing to pay for a tiny slice of the company he runs and extrapolating it to give a valuation for his share of the business.

He couldn't raise that much by liquidating his stock (the price would crash, for a start). It often doesn't take the business' debt levels into account. Sometimes it's impossible to really work out who owns what portion of the company. It certainly does not imply profitability.

In practical terms, it's a virtually meaningless number.


Agree but it's $185bn. Not $1.8bn. Even if it's overestimated by 100% it's obscene.

I must admit I did look at Tesla stock but decided against it. I did buy some Amazon stock though (a fraction of one share!) so i'm a hypocrite for 'supporting' Bezos.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:31 - Jan 8 with 2269 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:20 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

He hasn't really obtained that much money. It's more a matter of taking the amount other people are (or would be) willing to pay for a tiny slice of the company he runs and extrapolating it to give a valuation for his share of the business.

He couldn't raise that much by liquidating his stock (the price would crash, for a start). It often doesn't take the business' debt levels into account. Sometimes it's impossible to really work out who owns what portion of the company. It certainly does not imply profitability.

In practical terms, it's a virtually meaningless number.


Tesla only has about 13bn of debt and about 7bn of cash against a valuation of 800bn.

Also worth noting that he isn't paid anything by Tesla but if the share price is above certain targets at certain times he gets a total compensation package of 55bn USD. Currently the share price is miles above the targets.

You are of course right that flooding the market with shares to realise all the possible money would cause a crash. It's paper money only at the present time.

SB

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:32 - Jan 8 with 2264 viewsGuthrum

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:26 - Jan 8 by J2BLUE

Agree but it's $185bn. Not $1.8bn. Even if it's overestimated by 100% it's obscene.

I must admit I did look at Tesla stock but decided against it. I did buy some Amazon stock though (a fraction of one share!) so i'm a hypocrite for 'supporting' Bezos.


But it's not a 100% overestimation. Maybe more like 10,000%. But in reality it is a number floating on a cloud, you may as well not put the dollar sign at the front for all the real-world relevance it has (except, perhaps, bragging rights).

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:40 - Jan 8 with 2232 viewsJ2BLUE

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:20 - Jan 8 by StokieBlue

You're not wrong and it's not acceptable but with regards to Tesla it's not really his fault.

Just look at BryanPlug's thread a few down from this and you can see people buying shares for their own purposes are the ones pushing up his wealth.

SpaceX isn't floated but it will be at some point and then his wealth will explode again because SpaceX has a huge amount of upside and as you say, is a good company with a lot of innovation.

SB


I would buy a share of SpaceX just to own a tiny fraction of the company who will probably put the first people on Mars.

Again, i'm a hypocrite.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 00:41 - Jan 8 with 2243 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:32 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

But it's not a 100% overestimation. Maybe more like 10,000%. But in reality it is a number floating on a cloud, you may as well not put the dollar sign at the front for all the real-world relevance it has (except, perhaps, bragging rights).


He still owns the shares and doesn't need to sell them to realise some of the value. For instance they could be posted as collateral against something or used as payments to purchase other assets and companies.

He could also realise value by selling them in tranches over a number of years if he wanted to. As you've stated, he can't realise the value in a single moment but it's still not meaningless.

To get back to the original point though, it's an absurd amount of money for one individual even if it can't be recognised in a single moment.

SB
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 0:42]

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I'm sure this will go down well on 01:13 - Jan 8 with 2216 viewsGuthrum

I'm sure this will go down well on 00:41 - Jan 8 by StokieBlue

He still owns the shares and doesn't need to sell them to realise some of the value. For instance they could be posted as collateral against something or used as payments to purchase other assets and companies.

He could also realise value by selling them in tranches over a number of years if he wanted to. As you've stated, he can't realise the value in a single moment but it's still not meaningless.

To get back to the original point though, it's an absurd amount of money for one individual even if it can't be recognised in a single moment.

SB
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 0:42]


Not suggesting Musk is poor, or couldn't raise the funds to do pretty much whatever he wanted (vis. SpaceX).

But there are limits to what one could buy. Unless somebody's willing to sell him a small country, there are no assets in that price range. Purchasing a large corporation would see him in the same situation as now, with his funds tied up in business.

Also, that valuation is still based more on promise and PR than concrete profitability. Tesla may turn the corner to being a successful business (do seem to be heading in the right direction), or they might be wiped out by someone else's innovation in a developing marketplace.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 02:14 - Jan 8 with 2193 viewsKropotkin123

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:47 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue

Totally agree that the valuation isn't justified.

SpaceX is likely to be worth a lot over the longer term but it's not listed so doesn't fluctuate like Tesla. Some of the price for Tesla has been driven by the fact the Democrats now also control the senate and they will be in favour of green policies and subsides rather than gas guzzlers like the Republicans.

But for a company that has never really made a decent profit it's a crazy valuation.

SB


More so that they just got entry to the S&P500, so all the ETFs, etc are forced to buy the stock, which got pushed up as soon as it was announced as it is/was a guaranteed rise.

I remember admitting on here that I had savings in Tesla when it was circa 400 per share.

I'm not going to convince people, you either look at the company like it is a car company, in which case it is massively overvalued, or you look at it like a multi-sector destroying company, in which case it has some way to go.

Interesting that you mention Space X, as they hinted that Tesla shareholders would get first offerings on Space X, when it goes public. So even if you think Tesla is all smoke and mirrors, owning a small holding would give you a good route in at what would surely be the lowest price we are likely to see Space X at.

Space X is a bigger risk for me though. One astronaut death and suddenly you have a pretty insurmountable challenge to get confidence and investors onside.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 04:00 - Jan 8 with 2145 viewsIllinoisblue

The Tesla website is surprisingly sheeite. Front page leads with solar panels and not cars.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:13 - Jan 8 with 2007 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 02:14 - Jan 8 by Kropotkin123

More so that they just got entry to the S&P500, so all the ETFs, etc are forced to buy the stock, which got pushed up as soon as it was announced as it is/was a guaranteed rise.

I remember admitting on here that I had savings in Tesla when it was circa 400 per share.

I'm not going to convince people, you either look at the company like it is a car company, in which case it is massively overvalued, or you look at it like a multi-sector destroying company, in which case it has some way to go.

Interesting that you mention Space X, as they hinted that Tesla shareholders would get first offerings on Space X, when it goes public. So even if you think Tesla is all smoke and mirrors, owning a small holding would give you a good route in at what would surely be the lowest price we are likely to see Space X at.

Space X is a bigger risk for me though. One astronaut death and suddenly you have a pretty insurmountable challenge to get confidence and investors onside.


The ETF's buying will have pushed the price up but doesn't account for the steady rise over the medium-term. There is a lot of hype which could turn into success, I would say it has a very good chance.

As for Tesla itself, there is of course huge potential there but to be valued as much as the another 10 or so car companies combined does look a bit bullish given all of those could refocus at electric cars at any time. Tesla do have other good tech though such as their energy storage (Powerwall etc). The fact remains they haven't really made a profit but that hasn't historically mattered (take FB as an example of a company floated and traded without making any profits).

I don't think I agree about SpaceX. Everyone knows that strapping yourself to essentially a giant firework is extremely dangerous and they are doing a lot to mitigate the risks (ejection procedures for the Dragon for instance). I think even if (when is probably more accurate) there is an accident that it won't stop the contracts flowing in and that will be what investors are looking at. The reusable tech they have now is so far ahead of what governments are doing that the price they offer is so cheap in comparison I don't see even an accident putting a stop to their progress. Also have to remember that at the moment the vast majority of their business is unmanned (although you are of course correct that will change over time if the Starship works properly).

SB

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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:27 - Jan 8 with 1988 viewsIpswichKnight

For SpaceX they in test mode build to destroy. They will keep using the test vehicle until it does blow up learning all the time the limits of that vehicle so as the next test version will improve and they can test that to destruction too. One of the reasons why they are ahead of the Boeing programme to take NASA astronauts to the ISS.
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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:32 - Jan 8 with 1960 viewsHerbivore

Nobody needs wealth of a billion dollars, let alone multiple billions. It's an obscene amount of money.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:41 - Jan 8 with 1961 viewsRadlett_blue

I'm sure this will go down well on 01:13 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

Not suggesting Musk is poor, or couldn't raise the funds to do pretty much whatever he wanted (vis. SpaceX).

But there are limits to what one could buy. Unless somebody's willing to sell him a small country, there are no assets in that price range. Purchasing a large corporation would see him in the same situation as now, with his funds tied up in business.

Also, that valuation is still based more on promise and PR than concrete profitability. Tesla may turn the corner to being a successful business (do seem to be heading in the right direction), or they might be wiped out by someone else's innovation in a developing marketplace.


Musk's wealth is based on the market value of Tesla & the supposed value of Space X. Neither of these are very liquid assets (especially if he decided to sell) so it's a paper valuation which can't easily be put to practical use (except he does borrow using his Tesla holding for collateral).

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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:50 - Jan 8 with 1936 viewsWD19

You would have thought he could have afforded a better cosmetic surgeon. Looks like a burns victim.
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I'm sure this will go down well on 09:58 - Jan 8 with 1942 viewsStokieBlue

I'm sure this will go down well on 09:41 - Jan 8 by Radlett_blue

Musk's wealth is based on the market value of Tesla & the supposed value of Space X. Neither of these are very liquid assets (especially if he decided to sell) so it's a paper valuation which can't easily be put to practical use (except he does borrow using his Tesla holding for collateral).


SpaceX isn't floated and he owns a 54% controlling stake so he could technically sell that whole stake and realise the cash but it would never happen.

If he did decide to sell his stake I think he would have a lot of takers.

As you say, he can use his equity in Tesla a a collateral posting but you and Guthers are right that it's hard for him to turn the illiquid assets into cash.

SB
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 10:01]

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I'm sure this will go down well on 10:11 - Jan 8 with 1914 viewsBryanPlug

I'm sure this will go down well on 04:00 - Jan 8 by Illinoisblue

The Tesla website is surprisingly sheeite. Front page leads with solar panels and not cars.


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I'm sure this will go down well on 10:17 - Jan 8 with 1908 viewsGuthrum

I'm sure this will go down well on 04:00 - Jan 8 by Illinoisblue

The Tesla website is surprisingly sheeite. Front page leads with solar panels and not cars.


Which may - on an industrial scale - turn out to be the better market in the long run.

The person who comes up with the first genuinely cheap, long range, effective electric vehicle will be the Henry Ford, not necessarily those who first produced the technology. Who today remembers De Dion-Bouton?

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I'm sure this will go down well on 10:22 - Jan 8 with 1900 viewsRadlett_blue

I'm sure this will go down well on 10:17 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

Which may - on an industrial scale - turn out to be the better market in the long run.

The person who comes up with the first genuinely cheap, long range, effective electric vehicle will be the Henry Ford, not necessarily those who first produced the technology. Who today remembers De Dion-Bouton?


Xerox invented the mouse, but Apple made use of it.
Interestingly, when the Macintosh was launched in 1984 it cost $2500 (the equivalent of $6000 today) but it still sold well.

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I'm sure this will go down well on 10:29 - Jan 8 with 1887 viewsBryanPlug

I'm sure this will go down well on 10:17 - Jan 8 by Guthrum

Which may - on an industrial scale - turn out to be the better market in the long run.

The person who comes up with the first genuinely cheap, long range, effective electric vehicle will be the Henry Ford, not necessarily those who first produced the technology. Who today remembers De Dion-Bouton?


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I'm sure this will go down well on 10:34 - Jan 8 with 1870 viewsThe_Flashing_Smile

I'm sure this will go down well on 23:57 - Jan 7 by J2BLUE

Obscene level of wealth. I don't know how anyone can morally obtain that much money where it's in Tesla stock or whatever it is.

Love space. Love SpaceX. This sickens me though. I'm sure people will line up to tell me i'm wrong but I just can't think this is acceptable.


The thing is, he's a self-made billionaire. You could maybe argue he should give some of it away to charities, but actually what has he done wrong? He's just very good at what he does.

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

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